How to Live By Design Not Default

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Go check it out right now. Visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Hey, listeners, Jeff Zimper, welcome back to another episode of mortgage marketing radio. If you're new here, we appreciate you tuning in. If you've not yet heard, we have a private community on Facebook for you, the podcast listener, where you can go deeper, right? Get access to more of what I'm doing in their content, special happenings over there, uploading different files and resources you can use. And occasionally, I'll go live, I'll do it, ask me anything. And we can continue the conversation. So if you'd like to do that, you can go to Facebook, right, and search for mortgage marketing radio. Join the group. I'd love to have you in there. Please make sure you answer the questions before you come in because we want to make sure the group is for the right people, no sales bitches, not growing, not political. All right. So this week, I'm bringing on a special guest, I've been a fan of this gentleman for some time and been watching him from afar and really enjoying how he's showing up in this space of, you know, the mortgage community, which is one that I feel protective of if you will. And what I can now say confidently about Roland is that his part is in the right place. Who is Roland Cochran? Well, you're going to hear him tell his own story, but not just a coach, but, you know, in the traditional sense. But one that I feel confident in bringing to you because of his unique and different approach, what do I mean? What I mean is is so Roland has an interesting story and background is that at a very young age, he was able to be successful quick and out of the gates and do quite well financially ran a number of different physical therapy clinics and then wound up selling, selling the bulk of those off. And you know, if you follow Roland on social media and all you'll see and traveling all over the world for a month at a time, for instance, he was in Greece recently and now he's in Sedona, Arizona. If you're listening to this, Roland, I'm jealous. No, I'm just kidding. But here's the other thing that I found very interesting about Roland is this is not your usual conversation. This isn't your usual, hey, how do you, you know, successful mortgage originator conversation. I'm a big believer in mindset, I'm a big believer in getting clear on your value, right? And by value, I don't mean it's like, oh, your value proposition as a mortgage professional, but your value as a human being, right? Your value to your partners, your colleagues, your family, your community. And Roland and I have a conversation that you hopefully will find refreshing, but you know, we're talking about living in your divine design, if you will, living in design as he calls it. And I think what happens is that when you really get clear on living your design, living like, you know, engaged in the activities in space and place that you are built, divinely built, created to serve, interestingly enough, you wind up being able to contribute and serve at a higher level, you wind up actually not burnt out and having more energy, you wind up being able to make a difference in an impact, you wind up being able to lead people and still men. And so I love that part of our conversation, but I also love that what Ryan can do is help you as a mortgage professional build systems to remove yourself from the day-to-day operations if you are so interested in that. And so Ryan, Roland had told me that, you know, he's for, if anybody, he serves a special client. And that special client is somebody who's in a place where, you know, financially, they're doing well. And what they realize is that they want to live a life with a different kind of commitment. And one that allows them the freedom to experience and live their divine design and not feel stressed out, not be energy depleted by any purpose. But most importantly, I have the systems and process and people, right, to support you living that divine design. So I hope you like this episode. Links to Roland's web page, you put up just for us listeners are in the show notes. As a matter of fact, I'll tell you what that is right now. You can go to Roland, hawkren.com if you want to learn more. Roland, hawkren.com, forward slash mortgage, marketing, radio. Offer their due. Let's get into this week's show. Ryan, hawkren. Welcome to the show. How are you? Good afternoon, buddy. I know. Seeing you, seeing you all be seeing you twice this month, I went from, I went from virtually knowing you to, to seeing you like more than my friends and family. Right. Right. Yeah. And so I'm going to see you at the upcoming, um, uh, big night. Is that it? No fuse, fuse. Yep. Everybody's doing this light and the fuse and that strike. Right. It's one of those kind of things. Okay. So for, um, why don't you give your version of like for people who don't know about you, how would you tell somebody meeting you for the first time, you know, you know, that exercise very well. Why don't you give us the quick breakdown on that. So my, you know, I, I think people look at me and they assume that my story is very different than everybody else's, right, because my, you know, my life, it does look like a, it does look like a different life for sure with the, with the, with the travel and the stuff that I'm doing, especially given the age that I have and then the stuff that I've been through, right. It's like you would assume that, you know, something either really, really good happened to me or something really, really bad happened to me, right? And it's, and it's really not either of those, but it's a, it's, it's still an important story. And it's the same story that all of us have. It's a, it's a story of being born into the world and wanting to figure it out, right? And, and doing whatever it takes to do that given the resources they have available to you, which is, you know, for when we're younger, not a lot. And so you go, you, you start by looking outside of yourself. I had other, better people, other people you admire. And you try to fulfill these desires and motives that you have, even though you don't know how, right? I mean, you're, you're three, four, five, six years old. And so it starts then. And, and, you know, I need to present myself this way. I need to, I mean, you start coming up with this plan, this plan to become and fulfill these, these desires that you have. The unfortunate part is it gets corrupted as you get older, right? It's, it's, you start building upon those stories and they, they start becoming kind of less true, right? Oh, I, I, I need to take Fridays off and join this country club and have a, a house with a doc because that guy's respected. And everyone else around the, that, that same lake is respected, right? So that's how I'm going to achieve respect. And so that comes with everything, right? Now I need to have some sort of wealth. I need to, my life needs a certain way. I need to probably be in some sort of ownership position of, of some kind, right, owning your own, your own business or at least being in control of your income and time. So anyways, the end result is, you know, we, we build this life and we become a somebody. And it ends up owning you to some degree, right? You, you arrive and you realize I'm, I'm not a somebody, I'm me. And I'm, your, your life is more so a, a puzzle of everyone around you. Now, on visually, you look successful, right? And everyone assumes that you're fulfilled. But inside you don't feel successful, you don't feel fulfilled. You know, why is that? So that's, that's my story is, okay, I did everything right. And everyone around me is telling me how fortunate I am, how proud of me they are. And so now in this corner of it, well, you know, no one's asking me, right? Am I, do I feel fortunate? Do I, do I feel proud? You know, and the answer was no. But I was too embarrassed, Jeff, to go on the record, admitting that, you know, I, that I didn't feel fulfilled, that I would, that I hadn't arrived yet. It was, it was embarrassing. I didn't want to admit it to people because they're all telling me that I, that I should be happy. And I should be, you know, appreciate where I'm at and all these things. So I started thinking that I was broken, right? That something was wrong with me, right? And, and you hear the mantras of, you know, always hungry, never satisfied, right? You know, work, work, work, work, work. And unfortunately, that's like the solution to this emptiness problem is, oh, you're not working hard enough. Your business isn't big enough. You need to go to the next level or 10X or whatever it is. So unfortunately, here's these, here's these, these, we'll call them kids, because I think we're all kind of kids. Here's these kids, 30, 40-year-old kids who are like, hey, come on, I did everything. Where's my prize? Like, am I supposed to feel something, supposed to be respect and supposed to be significant? And then their messaging is go work, right? Work harder, 10X. And it basically just makes the problem even worse, because at least you had some grip of reality. And then by the time you've committed to that whole way of being, I mean, you're just, Jeff, you're just, I mean, it's, you're even further away. From where you are. So it's, it's, it's my story, but I think some variation of that is a lot of us. It's this, we kind of, we, we know what we want initially, and we're trying to get there. And then it gets so muddied in the process that we just forget how we're designed and who we were supposed to be. And we get caught up in this state of hypnosis of more things, more money. And it's, um, and it's not fulfilling and we, and we wonder why, but what I just explained you is why, because you were designed to fulfill this and you turned it into a game that it wasn't. So, um, a game that you can, a game that you can never win. And it's, yeah, well, it's, it's, well, I would even word it differently. A game full of wins that don't fulfill you, but you still get the boat and you're victorious and you can show everybody how, how that you drive a $250,000 boat. But then, you know, that, you know, also, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not, it's, you weren't designed to buy a boat and flex it on Instagram. You were designed to create some sort of change, you know, change this young lady, change this young man. I mean, that's, that's what you were supposed to do is exercise it, right? That we were designed to serve others. You know, it's, I like where this is going, because my, my new business is the one that I just launched is, is, is called in design. So what it is. So it's, it's, it's a process to honor your design now, not just for fulfillment, but I think everybody, you know, you and I just went to amplify me. What a great example of a, not just Renee, but a room full of people working towards honoring their design. And it just, it not only makes you happy, I mean, you, you, you get rich doing it. It's just a nice byproduct. People want to give you money to inspire them, just how it works. So yes, I believe we were designed with certain motives and certain desires. And I think it's different from every single person. And I think the core five elements are the same. I think we all have those in common, right? You know, safety, love, connection, belonging, esteem, recognition, and then self-actualization. I think we all want those same thing. Now you're, are, but our take on them is different. How we, how we see them and how, what our responsibility is and what other people's responsibility are, it is different. And I think that's why you will, I don't want to say conflicts like a, a, a, a constant, because I don't mean that, I just, but differences are. And so if we could just reframe these differences and, and appreciate them and then see what we don't know and learn more about our design, maybe this person understands something about your design that you don't know from their little way of seeing it. And so by appreciating and honoring their differences, it actually helps you actually. So yeah, it's, I wouldn't say our purpose is to help others, but it kind of is, right? It's, I would say our purpose is to live in our design. As, but, and, and, and the design itself will serve others, right? Look at it, right? As you achieve safety, as you achieve love, connection belonging, as you seek recognition and respect and respect others and self-actualize, you'll, you'll impact the world in whatever way that is. All right. So there's a lot in there for going there. I want to kind of, part mentalize and kind of unpack a little bit of the context for why you just went through what you did for those that aren't familiar with your background. Prior to choosing to live your design in the mortgage space and serving mortgage professionals and we can, we're going to talk about that. But first, let's, let's go back to, I don't know how you describe it your life before this or like, give us the specifics because I know, I don't know a lot. I know some rough edges. So you're going to have to correct me. All I know in generalities is obviously, you know, successful at a young age, you owned a several or a collection or a franchise of, is it, was it physical therapy centers? Yes. Yes, yes. Give us the context on that. Tell us about that little business journey. So just like loan officers, you know, the career chooses you, right? And so, and I don't think this is unique, I think there's a lot of business professionals. We, we want to help. We want to serve. We want to, we want to use our skills at the highest, at the highest way we can use them. And when you're young or early in your career, you don't really know what those are. And so usually your career chooses you. So the same thing that happened with loan officers, I was no more a doctor, no loan officers or loan officers. It's just, it's a, you see it, you get excited. It's like, cool, I could do that. I could make money doing it. And I could eventually see how this could lead to financial and time freedom. So same story for me, right? I, I, I don't know how much of it was like my calling, but it was like, I could wait until I'm like 30, 40, 50, 60 years old for my calling or just diving to this right now because I know I'll succeed at it. And I think loan officers need to see the same way. It's like, oh, yeah, I could do that and I'd be good at it, right? So went down that road, which I wish it was as short as becoming a loan officer. It was a, you know, here I am eight years later, spent 387,000 dollars and eight years of my life on this, this career. And man, I'll tell you what, I walked across the stage and I meet my first reaction was, what did I just do? Right? And it wasn't, like I said, it wasn't regret. It was more so, I don't understand, spent 387 walked across the stage. Yeah, yeah. So I graduated, right? Graduated. They throw the little Harry Potter hood on me and say, oh, wow, we're so proud of you. You're, you've been such a good boy. Every part. Right. And I just like, man, what did I just do? And again, I could say it wasn't regret. It was more so the gravity of, the gravity of, you know, it's kind of, I guess giving away a little bit of your individuality to a construct. Right? And it's so it's like, okay, wow, like that, that's a whole, I never even thought about it until the hood was on because now I'm like, okay, cool, I'm licensed. I can actually actually do this job now. What did you hear it degree in? It was a doctor of physical therapy. Yeah. So I, so my goal was to at the time was, yeah, sports medicine, orthopedics, you know, I wanted to work with work, not athletes, but adult athletes, right? Reacon Warriors. And so that's what I did. So I, I knowing that I went all in. I mean, I went, I started going to the conferences when I was 19. So when I didn't graduate until I was 28, right? So I had almost 10 years of going to these conferences. I knew everyone, Jeff, you know, the equivalent of like the mortgage space, you know, I knew all the guys in that space, everybody. I mean, these guys were, you know, they, they, they print money, right? These guys are just, they've been doing it for so long and so they invited me to their homes, taught me everything. So as you can imagine, when I opened my businesses, they opened quick, right? It was, I was profitable, broke even a month through and then profitable a month for. And, you know, because from day one, rather than just doing the thing, I ran it like a business. Oh, wow. So by the way, quick distinction there, right? Instead of just doing the thing, being the practitioner, being a sales, you know, keep in mind our audience, mostly the own officers, real estate, but that's also the trap people fall into is like on the call this morning earlier, I was talking about intention, like what's your intention? You clearly started out with a very clear intention that you were going to, right, be a business owner. Right. I wanted, I wanted the only thing I knew for sure was I wanted to travel. I wanted to see the world and the world's big and you need time and you need time to do it. That's all I knew for sure. I didn't know all the other details I didn't know, but I knew I needed a business that made me money passively and then I needed to be able to not be there. And so, yeah, from day one, that was the goal. I wasn't, it wasn't, oh, I can't wait to get to this number. I had no number in mind. It was, I need to build a machine. Yeah, but hold on a second, wasn't, we talked about like, you know, living your design was your design, though, to, there was a passion or an interest around serving people with that, you know, physical therapy? You know, it's a great question. I love that you went there because I do, I do think that's a barrier for a lot of people. And it was for me too, right? You always want to do the right thing. All of us, like, oh, what's the, and I think it holds us back sometimes, it's like, oh, like, is that right? And then we second guest ourselves, Jeff, I've been, and you've been through this. I mean, if there's anything I've learned from coaching and being coached, you just got whatever you know for sure at the time, you just got to go for it, right? That's why I found myself in, as a physical therapist, that's why I found myself, you know, I didn't know if I wanted to be a business owner. It wasn't, all I knew for sure was I can do this. I know how to make money doing this. I've learned how to make money doing this. And I want to travel and have basically a business that acts as an ATM, right? So you just got to go with what you know for sure at the time. If you always wait for, like, your design, you'll be waiting a long time because I don't think you're designed something you can learn. I think you have to be alive to discover it on the journey. Well, exactly. It's why I, it's why I invented the InDesign formula. It's why I'm doing this with people because I did. There is, you know, will you ever discover it for sure and know what it is and be able to tell everybody? I don't think it works that way. There is a formula to embrace it and figure it out faster and be acting in a way where you're listening to it and you're more aware. So it'll happen rather than arriving when you're in your late 70s. You can start being in design a little bit earlier or at least closer to it. However, though, you have always, I don't know how to describe this, but clearly your person who is physically fit takes care of themselves. Was that always an aspect of your life? No. I was horrible at all sports. I had like two years where I started, I mean, this is how it happened, right? I had two years where I started playing video games too much. My mom saw it happening and she, and no sports at all because I'm just bad at it, I'm not, we're not coordinated family. And she didn't like that and so she was like, and I was, I think it was 14 or 15. It has a summer, summer was 2015 and my mom was like, hey, you should, you should come to the gym. You know, the gym and they have that free personal training session where they try to sell you. So it's like, oh, you come and gym and hang out with this personal trainer and the guy was worthless. But I'll tell you what, I got the pump or anybody that works out, you guys know what I'm talking about. And I'll tell you what, man, after that, that way the rest was history after that. It just, it felt so good. And so yeah, I added it into my, and I had other causes. My dad, my dad died probably five years ago and he, you know, just didn't, that wasn't part of his life. And he always kind of talked about how he wished that it was. And so I think that stuck with me as a kid too was, you know, make, make that a priority and, and, and try and create a, a system around maintaining that no matter how busy life gets. Mmm. That was such a good point. Yeah, my dad passed when I was 35. So that was 30 years ago. And yeah, definitely didn't put health as a priority. And so there's a lot, I think there's, yeah, and then of course you see what's happening with COVID, unfortunately, and, you know, and who tends to be at a higher risk for that in most of the cases. And so that's been another, for me, a reaffirmation of the importance of placing a priority on health and well-being, which is kind of what we're kind of talking about here as well. Not just physically, but right, but mentally and emotionally too. All of it, right? I mean, if you, if you think about it, and that's a cool thing. If you, and I think a lot of high level entrepreneurs who are at, you know, everyone's always talking about the next level. To me, the next level is self mastery. That's what it is. Everyone, they want it to be click funnels and some weird thing. It's, it's just not. The next level is, you, you've understood business is now, you know how to make money. That's not your struggle anymore. Now it's like, okay, how do I use my skill set and how do I be happy and impact the world? It's, it's a whole different and make money, right? So it's like, how do I do all of those things? You start to see it differently. That's the next level, right? Rather than, I mean, blindly making money, you know, that's not that hard. You either just work or do the things, but I mean that, that next level is, how do I? Here's how I word it. Rather than looking for ways to use time, how do I let time use me? Guy, how do I let time use me? Can you explain yourself? So when you're, so back to the original story, the beginning of this podcast, right? That, that unexplained desire for more. Even though you have a lot and you're starting getting a lot and you're not your trajectory where, yeah, you know, 20 years from now, you'll have double or triple what you already had. And I promise you then, if you don't do anything different, you'll still have that desire for more. It's a constant, I believe. I believe it's the one constant. Now what needs to change is your relationship with that desire for more because it's not what you think. It's not more things. It's not more doing. It's not more accolades. It's not more achievements. You want to be more, right? But within the context of growing up in the world, in how everyone's design is different, there's not a roadmap for that. So when we look around, being more isn't, isn't easy. There's no roadmap for that. No one teaches you. So it's like, okay, well, I must need a bigger house. I must need to experience more vacations, things like this and the desires to be more. So how did I discover this? And this is not that long ago. It was like last two years, you know, as you know, I sold my house and started traveling full time at a couple of suitcases. And, you know, I had all the money, right? So I was free of money. I was free of time. And then I thought, oh, I'm going to go on vacation. I'll be happy now because I'll be at Greece for three months, Italy for three months. I just move every three months. Well, I was still rolling. And I still had the thoughts that I had before and I still had that desire for more. With you. Yeah. Yeah. The desire for more follows you. And so that's when I realized and, you know, I started doing cooler, cooler, cooler stuff. And nothing, none of it was good enough. And I thought I wasn't good enough, right? That's the perception. And in some areas, I wasn't. But here's what, here's what that feeling actually is, Jeff. The constant desire for more is your divine design telling you to come back to it. Yes, you are, you know, be bored of that. You're supposed to be. It's time to move on, right? It's time to elevate you. You know, you're not the same person you were now. Stop acting like you're poor. What do you mean, though? You just said, you wanting more divine design to come back and honor that. Right. So think about it. Yeah. Are you saying we should honor the desire to do more or is the real lesson not bad at something else? Great question. I'll answer it this way with the original question that I didn't answer of letting time use you. Because it's basically the answer that you're to the question you're asking as well. When you're thinking about emotions, they're always divine. That's the cool thing about emotions, right? And there's very few things in the world, everything's divine, but there's very few things that you can see and grasp in the moment, in the present moment that are divine and emotions are one of those gifts. You'll feel it and the more aware of it, it is divine. It's telling you something. Now, you can manipulate that desire into whatever you want, but that's man made. That's not divine, right? So you can, you can man make this desire and say, oh, I, I need a, I need a new car. But that's not what the desire is, this, this longing for more is saying something different. It's saying that there is more for you out there, but it's not, it's not the new BMW. It's, it's, it's being more, it's that divine design just calling you back to it. So it's like that thing that we think is tormenting us is actually the greatest gift. It's like, you know, it's, I, I thought I was suffering for all these years, Jeff, and it really wasn't suffering. It was rolling. You're, it's not that you're inadequate. You are more than this. I told the story of inadequacy and I suffered and I was angry as angry at myself as angry at everyone. I was angry at the way the world was. I thought it was unfair, you know, I didn't want to be not at peace. I wanted to be at peace. I wanted to be calm. I wanted to love myself. Be happy. And they've just seen them possible in that story, but the story was actually different. The story was come back, you're more, there's other things going on that you're ignoring. But how did you change your story then? Oh gosh. That's it. Well, I have a part two podcast, right? Um, really something shifted for you where it wasn't, if the divine thing keeps calling you back, you know, and we think, oh, the answer is I need the bigger car boat vacation, whatever. But then you got to come back again, again, again, and again, and at some point you're like, okay, shit, that wasn't it. At some point, hopefully, this is what you hope it happens is it's revealed like, okay, aha, that's not it, it's got to be over here and then like what, I don't know, that door's open now. You, you take me there. So I kind of already shared with you the thing that woke me up. So it was, yeah, what was the moment? It's not a sexy. Everyone wants it to be sexy. Mine wasn't sexy. And I think most people's kind of that real reconnecting moment isn't as elaborate as we are. That's going to wrap it here's the thing. This could take years, right? But also I think part of it is how self-aware are you hearing and sensing all that that's up. Right. So let's go, let's go in with that. So thank you for interrupting because that's, so let's go into the InDesign formula, the thing that I invented that I, you know, I used it on my, I used it on myself. I took very, it took a long time, took, well, not a long time for most people's life, but it took, you know, it took me basically three and a half years and probably seven hundred and eight thousand dollars of, in a ton of time. I mean, I, I dedicated probably 50 hours a week into finding who I am, being happy. What's going on? Yeah. Yeah. Cause I just got tired doing this. Are you getting coaching or whatever going through other processes with other people? Yeah. Carefully too. I want to mind you because I do see people who have access to finances, going a little while with it and just grabbing for stuff. You know, it's, it's fine. You need help, but I would definitely say, you know, you're in an area where that supports a lot of that. You're not going to support tent, like, you know, right? Yeah. Well, just yeah, I was going to say like every, every fifth store is a, but I mean, that's kind of the world right now, right? Is it's like, oh, you need this, you need this, you need this. And so, so yes, I did a bunch of that, but I will say I had, I had a plan, Jeff, I knew, I knew what I didn't have. I found people who knew stuff that I didn't know. And I went based off my feeling, not their sales copy, not their sales copy. Cause honestly, their coaches, coaches, coach probably wrote that sales copy, who he was probably the dude I should have met, right? So so you got to be careful. It's not just, it's not just their sales copy and what's, and what's popular because what's popular is just popular for whatever reason it's popular. They got the right influencer to endorse them and whatever it is. So, you know, I went off of feelings. Nobody knows my coach. Incredibly expensive. He's coached extremely, extremely high level people in this, in, in all industries. The guy's just brilliant. No, no, no, no. So he is. He lives in the middle of nowhere in, in Ireland, along with his wife. I don't even know if he has a phone out there that I know the male guy comes out like once a month, right? So, you know, no one knows who this guy is, but he's brilliant. And he knew something that I didn't, I didn't know what it was, but I trusted my gut. So, so yes, but, but I have a plan, but I like, but I like this, I like this angle you wanted to go. What is the formula? It's, it's what I invented and invented it through kind of my experience. So I started, so two years ago, I started hiring coaches to help me dissect my experience. Renee Rodriguez is one of them is like, okay, what's, what happened, what happened to me? And I'm a really, really, really good coach, I'm a freakishly good coach and I did, I also didn't know why though, right? Like why I did had no training. I'm not that brilliant, my, you know, my life's not that spectacular. So why am I so gifted at this? How do I see things that helps me help other people see stuff? It rapidly, right? So there's all these things going on and I needed to know why, I shouldn't say I wanted to know why, because I knew, you know, they always say success leaves clues. So what's to me is like, okay, if I can follow this breadcrum path back, maybe I'll discover my design, right? Something about me that, you know, will unlock something. So it wasn't a sexy road, Jeff, it was like, it was through fumbling, it was through trying stuff, right? Right? But to your point, yes, if we had to boil it down, if you look at the end design formula, if you go back to kind of one of the, right, divine design is on one end and then creating your reality, which is really whatever you want it to be, right now it is what it is, which you have actually a good amount of power over that, believe it or not. The steps right before that, when you're dissecting those, it is, it's awareness. Because if you can't see, then it is automatic, it is happening to you, you, your consciousness, you don't see where your power is going because it's automatic. So you assume your power lists and that life is this way and that if you want to be recognized, you need to do these things. And in reality, you invented that, right, but, but if you don't see it that way, it does feel powerless. And I empathize with that feeling tremendously because that's how, that's how I feel. Yeah, these are, these are wonderful, deep discussions. You mentioned Renee, it reminds me of, on his phrases, I know you're, you're familiar with which is let your frustration be your fascination. And that reminds me of like we're talking about awareness and self-awareness. And is that the divine design or divine voice or message, whatever that, when something in your life is happening repeatedly that causes you frustration, often we look outward, right, instead of inward. And I think that's the message I got from Renee and that. And I, of course, I showed that with the kids and the family and all that kind of stuff, because our response to that frustration, that external stimulus, be it life, be our situation, our bank account, whatever, our waistline, yeah. So you're frustrated. You're, you're, you have discomfort over that. Why? Does any, I think part of the challenge, and this has been a journey I've been on, is like, you've got to allow space for that conversation and that awareness for yourself to happen, don't you? So it's the, so part of the in-design formula is that exact piece. And I think that's why it works for, I'm going to say everyone. I know that's a really bold statement, but it does. It's a brilliant, it's a brilliant formula. It works for everybody. It has to. It's not, I'm not saying anything. You're saying it. I'm just showing you, they, they fill in all the blanks. I don't do anything, but just guide them back through it. So it's, you can't argue with me. You're the one that just painted it all out, it's how the formula works. So, but yes, what you're talking about is kind of that phase two, right out of the divine design, which is, I call it engaging in the world. And it's part of your design, though, Jeff, because if, if we didn't, if we didn't have a life experience and the, and the mind and the ability to see what's going on and assimilate and try stuff and, and do stuff with other people and do stuff with ourselves to do it, that we would kind of have no meaning at all. So it's like, it's that pain and struggle right there that people like can't stand, but it's also, I would say kind of the whole reason we're alive, because I mean, if you, if you knew what your divine design was already and your purpose was like predetermined, it would kind of eliminate the whole, the whole reason that we're alive and the reason we're here, right? So I think, I think you are designed, I think you're engaging the world, not knowing what you're designed and your purpose is to exercise whatever that is while engaging the world and the byproduct is that you become somebody that makes an influence that you were designed to make. And it feels, and we've been designed to make it feel really, really good, Jeff, when we find out what that is. It's an undescribable feeling when you, when you honor it. So yes, that engagement piece of figuring it out, you can't get rid of that. It's a, it's going to happen, right? So all right, devil's advocate here, I'm not saying this is me, but I try and think in the context of like, you know, the broad brush of potential that we have and people with the situations in their own context that they're probably listening to this conversation. I'm guessing some people who would hear this conversation would be questioning, right? And I know everything's frame of reference, so whatever you're questioning or how you see or hear this conversation is based on your own frame of reference. But you know, so what about the people who are like, you know, I mean, there are people in the world in the US here included that will never have. I'm guessing, I don't know, like these thoughts of like, what's my divine design? Like I'm the dude who's got to go to the factory and points to clock, because I got four kids and I'm making 12 bucks. And you know what I mean, that whole thing is like, you said, so do you think, I mean, I don't know, I'm just putting this out there, where do you take that and go with it? What are your thoughts on that? So your divine design, whether you, whether you label that way or not, is your view, your take on how to achieve security, safety, right? Whether it be financial, mental, mental, right? Yeah, so it's, it's all of those things. It's love, connection, belonging, it's respect, esteem, and self-actuation, right? We all, we all, that's how humans are designed, right? Abraham Maslow's, no one's question is work, because humans desire those things. Now, whether you call that Maslow's work, divine design, whatever you want to call it, I could care less, assign your religious belief to it, it really doesn't matter. The point is you have, you are, you're motivated to do something. I mean, look at the very, very bottom of the pyramid, I've glossed over it, but it's, it's physiological, right? You, oh, I'm going to go to the fridge and get water, you are, that you have the motivation to drink. I don't talk about the bottom of the pyramid, because in America, we don't really struggle with a lot of those physiological places, we have places to sleep, we have places to eat. But those, so, but just like eating, you have a desire to go to work, save money, put money for your 401k, give money to your kid, yeah, yeah, you know, sacrifice your own needs for your kids, you're right, so, so, so to speak to your point, sure, maybe you, maybe you haven't thought about it, and I don't think you need to, but it's acting on you at all times. Your motivation to do everything, to love, to connect, to hang out with your friend, have a deep conversation with your friend, to help a friend in need, those are coming from the divine design. So again, I don't think it's, I don't think you need to label it, I don't think you need to turn it into something that it's not. My point of presenting it, Jeff, is to heal successful people and high achievers, because I think at their point, it's really hard because in their frame, it's like, I've done everything and it's still not good enough. So by presenting the divine design, it's a very, and showing them the process too, it's a very healing process allows you to show yourself grace and a lot of other people grace, because you're like, okay, I get it, I can see how that motivation has translated through all of this stuff and spit out over here as reality. So, be, so as devil's advocate, I would just say, yeah, maybe you haven't thought about it, but it's acting on you, whether you like to believe it or not. I think that's a good distinction, because if you're unfulfilled in some way, that could be said as that's its way of acting on you. It is. I wouldn't say it good, it is. And why would be, Jeff, I've tried so hard to reject everything spiritual and everything religious, my whole life, and I'm still, I don't have any sort of affiliation even to this day, but I'll tell you this, there's something going on, brother, I mean, I just, I am so, why would I, I'm here, I am, I'm satisfied financially, time, location, I've been very, I've been able to experience a ton of often stuff, why do I, why is that stuff now no longer, why am I now wanting to, like, settle down and focus on impact and connecting with others and spreading this, I'll tell you right now that my number one priority right now is sharing the end design formula, and I mean that in 100, even if I, even if I wasn't charging for it, even if I was doing it for free, it's still my number one priority. It's all I think about most of the day, I just so compelled to do it, and that's what made me start to realize that something else is going on. Why, with all the access of awesome entertainment that I have, why is now that, like, the idea of just continuously entertaining myself and playing for days and days and days is just becoming less and less exciting, so weird, right? It makes you wonder what's going on here, why am I, why do I keep being called back to self-expression and self-discovery, and then I saw Mazzles work and it's at the top of the pyramid, it's the, it is a, it is a human desire, and the one unique thing about, so Jeff, let me, let me give you this, so if this doesn't anchor it, if this doesn't throw the anchor down, I don't know what will, Mazzles later work as he was doing his study and looking at all of these humans needs. The bottom four, which is physiological, safety, love connection belonging, and esteem. The bottom four, as you get more of them, you get less motivated to get more. You become less and less and less motivated as the, as you start achieving all those things, respect, money, love, connection, more and more friends, your motivation to go out and find more goes down. But the top one, self-actualization, which is self-discovery and self-expression, when we learn stuff about ourselves, we want more of it. Motivation goes up. When we express ourselves, what we feel, what we care about, what we love, where in environments where that happens, we want more of it. It's this crazy thing that Mazzle discovered and proved it, and man, it's so true, look at that. As I satisfy those, my motivation to get more is going down, and now all that's left is self-discovery, self-expression, which is, it does. It makes you wonder what's going on here, and we're all looking for purpose, but maybe it was right there the whole time, maybe we were just manipulating it into something that maybe it wasn't. Interesting. Yeah, I'm looking at a couple different examples of Mazzle's hierarchy of needs, self-actualization, self-fulfillment, interesting, and then there's sometimes there's situations where people try and use that in a management context. Which is really bizarre to me, because if you study Mazzle's work, Jeff, they misconstrued it. The pyramid shape was not, it's not a video game. You can struggle with one and the other. The reason he shaped it as a pyramid was it's amount of attention and personal power that that area takes. So if you are, if you don't have enough food, you don't have a safe place to sleep drink. You're our human design. You will have all of your attention and power will go to getting water. And so it's, you can struggle differently. It's not, self-actualization is not at the top because it's the most important. It's because the other ones below, if we don't have those, you're going to want them more and more and more and more and it's designed that way. And I think it's, and you know, this is just my perspective. And no one can really know this for sure because no one knows why I've recreated what our purpose is for sure. But to me, what those bottom four do is it creates a platform for you to discover self and express self. So it's like our desires are stronger to achieve those because the better, stronger that foundation is, we can start going to what I call that next level, which is, yeah, self-mastery. Well, it's interesting, too, when you look at the journey up the pyramid, if you will, to your point about how the intention of that pyramid is if I'm lacking in the basic needs of air, water, food, safety, you know, and we go further up the pyramid, of course, we're going to spend the majority of our time focused on the basic needs of food and safety and shelter. I would say it this way. You can't self-actualize if you're dead, right? It's interesting when you see this journey that you are on and that many people in a similar situation to you have been on, which is, I've checked the boxes on all of these sections, these elements of the pyramid. The one left to check is the self-actualization. Yeah, and again, it's, it's, it, which by the way is to become the most that you can be according to this. Well, and, and the, right, right, you see that written, you see that written places, which is, you know, who knows what self-actualization actually is. It feels really good to tell you that, but, but again, to hammer your point home, that motivation piece, too, to me, speaks a lot, right? The, when you look at people at that point of the journey, and again, it doesn't, you don't have to be rich to do this, Jeff. That's just, you know, that's, that's the other thing that people don't understand is perception plays a lot into this. If you, if you perceive that you don't have enough money to work on other stuff, that perception becomes reality. And so therefore, you will be stuck in this safety and not being safe, recruits other aspects of the brainstem, triggers a fear response, and you can, I mean, you could stay in that area for the rest of your life. Oh, I, you know, I need 10 million, then when you get 10 million, you need 29, and then when you get 20 million, honestly, the jump from 20, at least for my experience, is 100. And so, you know, it just, you keep remodeling what safety is. And yeah, you just, it, if that, it harms your ability to use your attention to do other stuff when, when you complete, when you keep convincing yourself that you're not ready yet. Yeah. Very interesting. Well, then let's, let's dovetail this into what's, what's it called again, design? Yeah. In design. So let's do this and tell this into also, let me ask you this first, though. All right. So you have all the success. You, you know, do well, obviously with your physical therapy, business, et cetera. And I think you sold some of them off, whatever, right, put yourself in the situation financially. So how, tell me about the segue into mortgage specifically? Why that? Yeah, great question. So when I, well, the first reaction was, what do I do now? Because I mean, I don't, at that point in time, when you start to, you know, if we think about the design, where I've now changed life to a point where I don't have, I'm not lacking anything. So I've now created a container for me to just be me because there's no, there's really nothing else I need to do. I can just be rolling and find out whatever that is. I don't need to, you know, like, I just live in a little pyramid doing pyramid stuff, right? In terms of, of, of fulfilling whatever it is that that is. And I don't, by the way, we're just, yeah, I'm living in my Maslow pyramid, let me regret that. My in design pyramid. And I'm just kind of doing stuff. So, so in that, it was like, again, back to what we said before, you got to go with what you know, if you're, if you're going to wait for somebody to like tell you, it just ain't going to happen. It's not. It just doesn't work that way. No one's going to tell you, you're just not going to feel whatever it is. And even if you do feel it, it's probably good. Go trust that feeling, but be prepared to understand that maybe two years later, it probably wasn't the thing. And then there's something else to kind of, that's just kind of how life works, I think. But so, so, but to my point, I was in the place where it's like, okay, what do I do? Start hanging out in circles of other people struggling with the same thing. And a lot of them were using their skill set in ways that, you know, let's use Renee, for example, because people who listen to this podcast probably know about it, right? So, it's like, okay, I'm going to use my skill set. And for those of you who know Renee for a long time, it wasn't always amplify. It was, speak from your heart. It was the, you know, sales, it was, you know, it's gone through stuff because he's trying to express himself through his journey, right? And it was a lot of selling. And then it was just, you know, speaking was speaking from the heart. And then he discovered a ton about himself on his, on his journey through that. And now he's sharing that with us through through amplify such a cool thing. So I start hanging out with people in circles like that, we're doing the same three, right? Learning about themselves and expressing that in a two other people, again, at the top of, you know, the pyramid, right? They do, and they're going, and you see those people, it's such a magnetic energy because, as Maslow said, your motivation to grab those things goes up and up and up. So these people are like, it's crazy watching them because they're just, they're in spirit, right? These people are inspired. It's just, it's, it's crazy to watch them. It's just, it's, you can't help but stare at them because it's like, good for you, man. I love, I love this. I don't even know what it is, but something's coming out of you and I just want to be around you. So, in those circles, I wanted that for myself, obviously, it's like, bro, you're inspired, I want to be inspired. And that's the, I call that the lighthouse effect. And that's why I teach a lot of mortgage professionals like, we're entering the spiritual economy. So, and everyone's saying that, if you're saying it, everyone's, that's where we're going. We're leaving the connection economy and going into spiritual economy. People in, at least in the Western countries, people are seeking self. Now more than ever, you see it everywhere. It's just books are coming out, left and right. Everyone's on this, this new kind of journey, right? And so, I wanted that for myself and the problem is, you can't force that, Jeff, it's, it's your own story. And so that was kind of like those past three years is, okay, I went through all this stuff to be happy and be all this and now it's awesome, but I want to share it with people for whatever reasons, it's just a desire to have. And so that was what led into where I am now. So now why mortgage? I don't know, we can't know everything about everything. All I know is how to get people to trust me and send me referrals. I can take other licensed people and build a platform for them to crush it. So I don't have to. And I know how to do that really, really, really well. They appreciate where they're working. I get that whole thing. It's never been difficult for me and then I look around and it's difficult for a lot of people. So, but I create a platform for those, crush it. And then the third piece is, can you, can it run without you? Well, mortgage is that, that is, that's the only business model I know. It was all of my businesses. I've never started a business that was not majority referral based. Now, I'm not saying once you have the client, you can't reactivate them. That's possible, but it's, you know, it's, it's mortgage is easier. I guess what I'm saying is don't call me for, don't call me for help if you want direct to consumer. I'm just, I know how to do it. Clear? I just, it's not, I'm not passionate about it. But so that's why mortgage, it's, it's, you can, if you do it right, you can, you can create a, an ATM that you really enjoy working for and other people enjoy working for you. Yeah. And I've seen it happen. You mentioned some of the circles that we, you and I've been around recently at Amplify, you know, Ryan Grant is obviously somebody who comes to mind, Josh Meadow, right? Other people. Yeah. These guys haven't touched a file for decades, right? I'm at a very high level doing high volume and they do have, to whatever time freedom they want. That's the cool thing about what you're saying is you get to do this. Yeah. And it's, and it's, and it's not that you're chilling around on beaches and stuff with, you know, covered in, covered in baby, oh, that's not what I'm saying. You just, you get a point now where you get to choose what serves the business, right? You know, in my case, I'm a horrible leader. I, I, I talk too much. My brain scattered. I intimidate some people, depending on who they are. So it's, you know, I'm not trying to, I'm trying to be helpful and like I'm terrifying them by accident for my energy, I guess. But so anyway, I learned all these things about myself and, and it turned out for me with my businesses, there's just no place for me, they're just, they're just wasn't. And so, you know, it hurt in the beginning, you stung a little bit, because I think I wanted to be a good leader, I wanted to be a revolutionary, I wanted to be a visionary even, right? I think, oh, well, at least I could be a visionary. Well, I can't even do that. So, you know, it was a little gut punch at the first that I had no place in them. And so yeah, I sold half to Wall Street Olding firm last year and then I still actually own some that I, that I could sell that other, that other people run for me. Well, what I see from you in terms of what I've heard you speak before and then of course, you know, better understanding what you built in the previous business there is your, your big one, first of all, what we talked about, like getting clear on living, on in design. But secondly though, in order to have that freedom of systems and this is what I'm sensing from you, is that you're really good at creating systems that do free you up from being the day-to-day and I created a tool for the listener. So it's www.rollencochran.com slash mortgage marketing radio and it literally will walk you guys through the roadmap from, you know, and I even include some of the end stuff in there that you can use from achieving, achieving happiness, achieving fulfillment, creating impact. Because that is, you know, that's, it's, it's, it sounds easy. It looks easy when these people are out there. You thought business was hard, discovering your divine design and expressing it in a way that integrates with the world. And that is a, it's, it's a challenge, but I'll also tell you this, it's the, it is, it's the most fulfilling thing. I mean, my, my passion behind removing mortgage professionals from their businesses is not so they can go on vacation, right? The eye passion behind it is these are, these top producers are some of the most influential impactful people out there. And we do not need them in the, in the office. We don't need them talking about rate. We need these people to express themselves however their design is. And that could, some of that could be within, maybe they're supposed to have branches all over the country. Because that's their impact, that's their design. Good for them. That's, I'm not telling you what your design is and how to do it. You don't need to do what I did or Renee did. Certainly, we don't, we don't need a bunch of, if all of us are just vomiting our story, nothing's going to happen around here. So I'm not saying that's what it is. I'm just saying create a platform so you can at least give it a try. Just step out of the hypnosis for a second, Jeff, and just like, try and come back to when you were 18, when you had dreams again, when you had desires, those are still there. They didn't go away because you have responsibilities. I mean, those desires are alive. I would actually say they're stronger now than ever because at least you understand you have the resource now to get up. Whereas back then they were just a dream. So yeah, I'll just leave it with that. But that's the, that's my passion. That's my why. It's not, it's, it's, you got, the world will be a better place if these top producers are expressing themselves in their unique way. Yeah, that's awesome. So give out that website once again, please. Yep. So www.rollandcochran.com slash mortgage marketing radio. And you guys can, you know, you have to be in show notes or if you forget, just roll and cochran, find me on Instagram or something. I'll send it to you that way or send or message Jeff or something. Yeah, I mean, but yeah, there'll be only concerns for sure as you can simply click there and check out what you have to offer. I think it's really great and refreshing. And whoever's listening to this right, it's, you know, the old saying when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And I think there's people obviously listening to this at our various stages along their journey. Some people are really early in their journey. And what you're, what you create or offer may not be the right timing for them. But for other people, it is. I talked to somebody actually just yesterday and mentioned you. So I don't know if he is going to contact you. He said he would. But if you're at that place where you are further up on that hierarchy of needs and you do have you do have the wherewithal and that little calling voice internally, be like, you know what, man, there's something more for me, right? And you're where and listening of that voice, that message. I think checking out what you do is like a great next step. Well, I think too, if you're, if you're and don't get it twisted, this is not just for like rich people and stuff. I mean, your divine design is, it's for all of us. It really, I mean, it's your, one would argue it's your purpose to fulfill and be in the world that way. That's, I mean, what else is going on if, if that's not that? So, so don't get it twisted. Not just for certain folks. It's, here's what I, here's what I describe is the only reason, the only reason it comes off like that, Jeff is because, you know, when, when you're broke, it's really easy to just be like, hey, man, I can't, I can't even afford blueberries out of season. Like, I don't need to be finding my divine design. We think, but let me tell you what, the reason I was retired at 29 was because I was more connected to my divine design than anyone I knew. That's why I didn't know. I, that's why this is my story. So, I listen to my product. That's why this is what I'm coaching is in height. Like, this is, I always thought I was all these systems and money making shenanigans and sales. It, okay, sure, maybe. But the reason I was so good at those things that I just said was because I've, like I said, I thought it was torture. I thought it was torment and it was not. It was, it was my divine design telling me what to do. And I just, I think I just listened more than a lot of kids did when they're 15. I was just, I was very, I heard it a lot. It was a lot louder of a voice to me than say maybe some of the other voices. So, to, my point is though, it's a massive motivator. So, so yes, if this does not connect with you and you don't want this at all, cool. Don't, you know, circle back with me in 10 years, because you will. We're all, we're all going to want to. It's sometimes. So, I'm not saying it's not for you. Just come back when, when you do feel that desire to be more. But I would also say too, there are some people, Jeff, who, who are like me where this, this is really, really loud. And there, I don't know, 15 years old, 10 years old. They're just very, they're, they're those empaths. They're just feeling this gets crying all the time. It's very like, you know, you feel it in your chest all the time. It's like a huge weight, a ton of pressure. There might not be something wrong with you. You might not need medication. You could, you actually might just be that person that's reconnected with the divine design. So, it's, I just want to say that because it's, there's nothing wrong with you. Like, sometimes reconnecting with it and embracing it earlier, is the rocket fuel to fast forward through the business stuff. And again, you don't want to fast forward. But I mean, it's, it'll just happen a lot faster because you're being the lighthouse. You're, you're being inspired and people want to be around inspired people because they feel this little thing that says, maybe there's more going on. Right. Exactly. Yeah. People are attracted to the light, you know? Awesome. We unfortunately out of time, but listen, I appreciate you being here and sharing such wisdom. I could have actually kept talking for another hour and going deep, deeper, right? Yeah, I'll do a part two in six months or something. Yeah, part two in six months because we, we both will have evolved even more since then. I'll be a different person. I'll have beard and all sorts of weird stuff, right? Well, listen, I'm, I'm grateful for your time and listeners. Hey, you know what to do. If you like this episode, please let us know. If you want to learn more about rolling, what he does, the links in the show notes, rolling in Cochrane.com forward slash mortgage record video. Appreciate you. And we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now. Hey, guys, what's up? Real quick. You've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before. And I just want to quickly remind you of that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased loans. You need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. 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