Capturing Business from Agents, Builders and Buyers

Hey, hey, hey, listeners, what's up, Jeff Zimper, welcome to this episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast. Thank you for tuning in. As always, if you've been a listener for some time, I'm grateful if you are brand new, this is your first time listening. Hey, thanks for being here. Hope you dig in. Check some past episodes, search for topics that you might find relevant and looking for and enjoy some of the content and when you feel so inclined that you've gotten a great idea, you've gotten an aha moment, you've gotten inspired. Maybe you've even just laughed a little or, you know, we shared something that was impactful for you. I would love you taking a moment and sharing a review if you don't mind. Wherever you're listening to this right now, on your mobile phone, podcast app, click to find, leave a review, whether it's Spotify, Apple, reviews help us reach more people. So thank you for that. Hey, before we get into this week's special guest, come and hear it from the streets. That's right. In the trenches, another success story from members of our MyAgent classes, platformed what we do is we help agents leap frog and go from solicitor and vendor to partner and peer. How do we do it? Well, we help originators become part of successful agents business, helping them solve problems, leading with education, teaching educational classes, virtually and in person in your local markets or across state lines, the bottom line, why it's about building an audience. One of the skill sets we need to survive in any market is audience building and leveraged opportunities to have conversations at scale with real estate agents as one of the sources of business. And there's no better way to do that, quite simply than attracting and leading with education that adds value to people and helps them solve problems. What happens when you do that? Resistance goes down. Trust goes up, conversations are facilitated and remember conversations lead to contracts. Here we go. Latest update from Michael Pecola, one of our longtime members, Michael has been with us. I think recently tried something new. Here's his testimonial from our private Facebook group. Michael hosted two in-person classes this week with a third option. The third option is, can't make it, would like to learn more about the topic. So for his first class, 12 registered, for his second class, 10 registered. But the third option can't make it, but do want to learn more? 47 agents raised their hand and said, yes, I can't make either of those two dates, but I'd like to learn more about the topic that you're talking about. So we do some cool things with that in terms of repurposing content, recordings. But most importantly, the point of leading with education of teaching classes is it's at the top of the funnel activity that drives conversations and scheduling those conversations either over Zoom or in person, whatever it is your preferences, however, how fast or how long would it take you to schedule a range and have 47 agents reaching their hand out to you and saying, I'd like to learn more about what it is you're doing. Does coal-calling produce those kind of results? No. Does networking know? Happy hours? No. Broker previews, open houses? No, no, no. You know what it does? Using a leveraged system at scale. That's not about you. It's not about product and price being a vendor. It's about helping them solve problems. One of my favorite sayings is, if you want to earn their business, you need to become part of their business. Michael, Pecola, congratulations to you for demonstrating how to become part of an agent's business and reaching agents at scale. If this is interesting, you want to learn more about how we do this? Go to mortgagemarketing.pro, book a call. Let's talk. Let's see if we're fit for each other. Mortgagemarketing.pro. Okay. My special guest for this week is a longtime friend, colleague of mine, Ben Smith. Ben is a chief marketing officer who specializes in digital strategy and digital marketing. He's a speaker. He's an SEO expert. Ben and I have known each other for a number of years and we originally worked together back in his days at MGIC where we did some educational content and classes for the MGIC community. Ben's an awesome leader with a vision and he really gets and understands technology. In the context of it being applicable and useful and impactful, not just being a nice to have, bright, shiny object. So Ben has been in the industry, like I said, for a well over a decade, spent time at a top five lender and now he and I had a conversation that I thought was really cool and interesting because I always like to be on the forefront or at least try to be in terms of what's happening for technology in an industry. So Ben reached out to me and said, hey, man, here's this company I'm at right now. It's called UpList and I would love to kind of have a conversation about this and see who this might be relevant for and I said, well, let's just have a conversation on the podcast because when I saw a look at what UpList does, I thought it was really cool. And so as you know, I'm all about having relevant, impactful, engagement, conversations there I say it again with potential referral partners. In this case, we're talking about agents and builders and this is a pretty cool span on an update to bear with me now real estate listing flyers. I know you've heard that thing before and you think you've seen it all, but I can tell you haven't. Can you imagine if your real estate listing flyer, right, your finance flyer has the ability to be updated in real time, right via a link from somebody's mobile phone via a QR code and those rates are updated in real time that pull in from your rate engine and even better than that are adjusted specifically to the qualifications of the potential buyer you've already approved. Imagine the scenarios in terms of like open houses, builders, listing agents is so forth. Very, very interesting technology and I encourage you to have a listen and if you wanted to check out more, the link will be in the show notes get up list.com is where you want to go. We'll also put a link to Ben's LinkedIn profile, Ben publishes some pretty cool content articles. One of his recent ones is on AI and we do talk a little bit about that as well in today's conversation. So make sure you go check out the links and resources in the show notes and without further due, let's get into this week's show Ben, welcome to the show. Hey, what's up Jeff, how you doing? Long time no talk, man. We're trying to figure out just a moment ago how long it's been, I don't know, three plus years, easy. It's been a minute, but you know, I see you every day. So social media is a beautiful thing. I apologize for that. No, I'm really glad that you reached out to me because you obviously are somebody who I respect your opinion and your place in the industry when it comes to digital and all things digital. So before we get into our conversation for those who may not be familiar with who you are, what you do, go ahead and share that. Yeah, I've held a few different roles over the years, you know, going back to working in the private mortgage industry space, doing a lot with them and then transitioning actually working for a lender in the digital capacity and then most recently working as chief marketing officer for a SaaS FinTech startup called UpList and working in the mortgage and real estate industry there. So it's been very, you know, it made sense. The movement from one to the other to the next has made a lot of sense and has been beneficial. All right. So thank you for that and we're going to provide links to those who want it in the show notes. Make sure you check that out, but let's let's start with this. Like, you know, you've been in this industry for quite a while. You've seen a lot of technologies get promoted or like this is the thing or this is where it's going, you know, automate everything under the sun. So why don't we start here? Why don't we put your framework, right? Your frame, your context, your wrapper around the proper integration and use of digital technology for the individual loan officer and you can take that maybe at whatever stage of the process you want. Maybe that's front end, maybe that's during, you know, but maybe that helps. Sure. I feel like I'm in the hot seat. I'm usually the one talking to people and not knowing what you're going to ask is it keeps me on my toes. So, you know, for me, I think at the core, it's simplicity, you know, when I was speaking, it was a lot of minimum time, maximum value. Our time is so valuable. What can you do to get the best return on that time? So simplicity, having meaning, not needing necessarily all the bells and whistles of a technology, but the technology that really executes on what's going to move the needle from a business perspective, I think has been what's always caught my attention as it relates to technology. And then as it relates to technology, how it fits within your process in terms of what do I need to get done today? What's going to be a marker of success? Those types of things I think about, well, what technologies can help me do that? And so that's where I've kind of pointed to a few different ones and said, yeah, this makes sense. It's not real heavy, it's very lightweight, executes quickly and can help me get my stuff done for the day, for the week, for the quarter, faster, with a better return. So that's kind of how I've looked at technology over the years. Yeah, so like the essential, right? Yeah, not the nice to have, but the must have. All right, well, we're hanging around this neighborhood of technology efficiencies, the essential, if people should follow you on LinkedIn, by the way. And I'll make sure that we, you know, obviously in the notes, they can follow you on LinkedIn, but you posted two weeks ago an article referencing chat GPT and the dolly three and things like that. So maybe along the same thread, give me your sense or your commentary around how you see, you know, or the use case for currently, for mortgage or real estate professionals with those technologies. Yeah, I have to say I feel very fortunate to have been in an industry, in any industry, as a working professional and gone through last November where it came to market. And that period of 30 to 45 days where everyone had access, there was no cost associated to it. Yes, it was just wide open. And as I was saying to my co-workers at the time, this is a golden age that will never happen this openly again. And just at night, I was exploring, playing with it, figuring out how I could create efficiencies using chat GPT and other AI systems. And then of course, plus came out in the enterprise versions, which allows you even more opportunities, which is what dolly three is tied into currently, which is what led me to the post. What I think is very timely in your question is earlier this week, they came out and talked about the creation of GPTs. And basically a GPT store where you could create a GPT that's a value to a specific audience and they could pick it up and use it and that you could monetize that and actually create revenue from it. So now it becomes more about, again, what could I create that simplifies a process for an end user. And I could actually make money off of that. I think it's very exciting. It's a very exciting time, honestly, because if we're going to look back in five years and look at how it has adjusted the landscape for whichever industry that we work in. All right, so that's interesting. And I'm just now scratching the surface and digging into that new release you talk about there. So considering our audience is mostly mortgage and some real estate, are there any use cases or applications of that that you know, that will have already. I mean, if we're talking about GPTs, which just came out, there is an opportunity to think about the creation of a GPT that would allow you to identify a property, find the most important information and have that be the engine that runs behind the scenes for whatever application you might develop. And so that's something that we just started talking about this week and how that could potentially be incorporated into the company I currently work for. So right there, it gets your gears turning about and I would go back to what's a value, what's going to help people be successful, and then what could I create around that technology or technologies to really help the larger, I guess, community, I would say. Yeah, I'm looking at some of them right now, these new GPTs, which is, you know, a link if you will to chat GPT itself. I believe the forward slash is create but chat.openai.com forward slash create if from correct. There's a little navigation that needs to happen within the system to find that. I mean, if we want to talk about current opportunities, so I am a user of chat GPT plus, which allows me to use plugins. There's a variety of plugins on the market that can help you do your processes faster. It's not that it's replacing creativity in any sense or replacing what I think is most important, which is the strategic thought process. It's just helping to expedite it in a faster way. And that led to my post that I did previously, whereas how is this going to affect the larger industry if now Dalai 3 is tied directly into it and the output is quite good in terms of what you see based on a couple queries and prompts that you've put into the system. And it's at basically a low cost or no cost opportunity. So I can reduce my costs and we think about the current market landscape within the mortgage and real estate industry. It's tough. I can help reduce and shed costs by limiting some other systems or softwares I might be using by having this now incorporated into an existing one. The image creation was the example I was sharing there. Yeah, Dalai is something that haven't touched in a while because early on it just wasn't really performing for me. I wanted to, but I've seen a couple of people share images with me that I'm like, oh, okay, time to double check that thing because it looks like it's really evolved. It is. And it's just been a faster process. You know, in the past, you might go to Istock and find imagery. You might go to Canva and create imagery. Now you don't need either of those. You can simply place the prompt in that you're looking for and it puts out a pretty good image for you to use. And if it's not quite what you want, the ability to tailor that prompt and see a better output is what was I was excited about. Yeah, so these GPTs I'm looking here in the section of GPT and they've got some already made obviously by OpenAI. You're talking about one, Dalai. But then there's these others which start my brain thinking of like they have this thing called the negotiator. I'll help you advocate for yourself and get better outcomes become a great negotiator, creative writing coach. The point being is like you can upload or create or build these processes right around specific tasks, perhaps, that you have. Is that a good or a good idea? Yeah, you identify and this is true to how I've worked at previous companies in my career is let's identify inefficiencies and then let's fix them. Let's create a system that's more efficient, whether it's robotic process automation or if it's how you approach your day in terms of how you can get the best return for that day, whether it's mindset or technology, it's always about let's get the most efficient output. Are you saying, because everybody's talking about programming as well, I can start creating different, I don't want to go down this tech rabbit hole, but without needing to be to know fancy code or anything, build a website for example, a landing page. That's how they're touting it. I would say, you know, I am not a programmer, so I would want a true programmer to rate any output that we're messing around with or creating with to get their true opinion, just like if I were to go in there and ask it to write me copy or content around digital technology, strategies, social media, whatever, I think you still need that second set of eyes from an expert to say, well, this is this is a little fluffy, this is a little too high level, you're not really getting into the action items. You know, for me, it's always been if I'm going to speak on a topic, I want you to walk away with action items you can do, not just theoretical things that could be done, but here's how you get from point A to point B step by step, and that's where I found that there's a little bit of fall off in terms of some of the asks or prompts that you have. So how you craft that becomes very important in terms of getting that desired output, and it's still probably not going to be a hundred percent, you can add your intellectual insight to get it to a hundred percent for sure, but it can be a great starting point if you're stuck, if you're looking for new ideas, or if you need just a kick in the butt to get going, it could be helpful. Well, here's one, you have younger children, right? And so one of the GPTs is a math mentor to help their kids with math. You thinking about trying that one out? Yeah, I might say me some money with her actual math tutor, so I will look into that, but you know, it's interesting because we talk about the fabric of our environment and how things will evolve, and even with my daughter who is in sixth grade and my kids are younger than that, I will encourage her to explore chat GPT if she's stuck on something to get, you know, past a roadblock or something that's preventing her from moving forward. I don't see it as a negative. I see it as a complimentary option to what you're doing on a daily basis. Yeah, I think the key word you said or phrase, and we all heard this narrative is like, you know, the human element of it is still important and relevant in terms of making sure it sounds like you, for any output, and the context is right, and then of course when it comes to technology and automation, let's dovetail back into platforms, for example, timing and the proper use case of technology. A quick side note on that is I've told the story before with other guests on the podcast where when I first moved to Vegas, I was quickly looking to start the home approval process and I did some online apps and everything like that, and then I got these automated communications, automated videos, yet I had never heard from a human being over a span of like three days, and there were all these assumptions from the technology communication that welcomed them to the company, so looking forward to working your loan, et cetera, and I'm like, bro, what? Like, you know, hello, this is a little out of order, you know what I mean? Yeah, so and you see obviously in your your chair, you've been in for a for a long while, is technologies and platforms, which is why I wanted to talk to you today about what you're involved in right now, because I think it's pretty cool, pretty relevant for the audience, which is called up list. Do you want to give us the kind of the summary on what up list is all about? Yeah, for sure. So up list is a technology software company and really started with one single product, which is what's called our smart view flyers and the difference between these types of listing flyers and other listing flyers that are out there is that ours integrate real-time rate information. So as a loan officer, you're integrated through your pricing engine and the way in which it's established that unlike traditional listing flyers, once you print those, the rates could change a minute later, you got to reprint them the way that these are created in terms of the actual tangible PDF and how the end user interacts with it is there's a digital element there. So the flyer doesn't actually have the true rates on there, they're blurred out. The user scans the QR code or could click a link and goes to a web page that is tied into your pricing and then allows them to work any number of scenarios. So you're not limited to what scenarios you think they might need or want as a potential home buyer, but they can then go ahead and select exactly what it is, whether it's including seller credits, whether it's VA, FHA, conventional. So they really are in the driver's seat. But aside from the technology saving loan officers quite a bit of time in terms of you only have to create it once, you never have to update it. So we'll have people tell us, well, I just saved three hours by not having to update all of my listing flyers for the weekend because you only create it once and it's good until the home sells. More importantly that I like and I think historically, I've always felt this way is it's about relationships, building the relationship. I remember when I first came into the industry, I was always surprised how loan officers would say we're the most important part of the transactions and real estate agents would say no, we're the most important part of the transaction. It's actually the collaboration of the two loan officers working with real estate agents. So what this provides loan officers is that opportunity to look at their local community and reach out with something of value, especially in a hard market like this where you have to hit the streets. You got to hustle hard, you got to kick down doors, you got to start doing that outreach to try and build relationships and strengthen existing relationships. So what I've seen since I've joined the company is the feedback and the testimonials related to the relationship building opportunity of it where the real estate agents love it and they want more of it. So loan officers will create those flyers for them, provide it to them, gives them a talking point and strengthens that relationship. So that was the main technology that was kicked off earlier this year, but we do have two others we've since created. What are those? Well, you know, again, like when I came to Uplis, I asked a lot of trusted people what they thought of the technology before they knew I was going to work at the company and they all universally said hands down, this is amazing. And I think the reason for that is the creator of it, Jeff Bell is a loan officer himself, top producer, 20 plus years in the industry and he essentially created the technology because he had these own issues he was running into. He was sick of updating listing flyers. And again, if a listing flyer strategy isn't a part of your makeup for how you build and grow, then it's not for you, but there's other features that might be. And so what we came out next with was the quick quote feature. And really, this is a value add to the loan officer and to the potential home buyer in that you get a lot of calls, hey, I need you to price out this house. I'm interested in, you know, a 30 year, what about a 15 year? What if I can get a $10,000 seller credit? What about a buydown? And most loan officers at this point in time need to be in front of a desktop to pull those numbers to get the true rate. But what this allows for is the mobile friendly version, again, pulling on your true rate from your pricing engine to run those scenarios in a couple of seconds and then email it back to them and say, here's what the cost would be right now at this point in time. So it's really that convenience for the loan officer to get their weekends back. You know, I can go and hang out with their kids at their center events and actually do something and not have to be so tied closely to a desktop. And that came directly from Jeff in his own experiences of what he was getting frustrated. Well, that's great because oftentimes technology, I'm sure you've seen it too. Sometimes the technology that's pushed, if you will, upon the loan officer population is obvious that it hasn't come from a use case of an originator kind of in the field or some of the difficulties or resistance in using it in a practical way. So that sounds really cool that you can do that in a mobile friendly kind of on the fly. Yeah, from anywhere, which is nice. I mean, again, he's creating these things because he sees a need for him in his life. And for me, it goes back to the simplicity. It's very simple. It's lightweight. It solves the problem that you have right now. And that's really what our focus has been is we probably will only come out with maybe one more tool. And then we'll just stick to those four. The other tool that's currently live right now for users is called the Smart Buy or Tool. And so what this is is a value add to again, the loan officer in some capacity, but really to the home buyer. So you have the loan officer ability to build a relationship with the real estate agent through the smart view flyer. And now you have the ability for the LO to build a relationship with the home buyer that they're working with through the smart buyer tool. And what this is is again, mobile friendly, think about your mobile device. But for any buyers that you have in circulation pre-approved or not, you can provide this to them. It's white labeled to your company. And so as a home buyer, I can now search for any property that I'm looking at at any time of day, put in the pertinent information of that home. And this is how I approach it if I'm buying a home because we're looking at moving when the kids are a little bit older. But I like to do a lot of my own research. And so I just want to be able to know I can put in all of the key details. I can search any property and the payment and rate that kicks back is real time tied to my trusted loan officer. So I know exactly what that house is going to cost me if I want to move forward. And then the nice part about it is because it's tied to a buyer that the LO set up, there's parameters on what they can actually afford. And if it's in line with what they can afford, you can request that pre-approval letter immediately and take action as a home buyer. If it's outside a scope of what you're pre-approved for based on the informational LO had put in, then it just says contact me. Let's talk about it. And you can make the LO can make adjustments if needed. But it lets the home buyer know based on their financial situation, what they can actually afford in real time. Very cool. What happens then in terms of the potential, let's go back to the flyer situation and let's say it's an open house or something like that. But what happens with that data? Does that get hoarded into, do you guys have some time of a CRM on the background, or is that like a web booked over to some other CRM? So PPI is really important. So we don't actually capture the PPI information. Explain that for the layman. People's personal information basically. So we don't want any of that. We don't want to hold any of that. What happens is when the user who's the home buyer is interested in they scan the QR code or click a link and they go to this dynamic landing page that has the real time rates. Once they get the payment information, they then can take action. So if they're on a mobile device, they can text the LO, they can email them or they can call them. If they're on a desktop, they can email them and move on to the next step of the process basically. So they're letting the loan officer know, hey, I'm very interested in this and then the loan officer takes it from there. So it's an introduction point really. That's coming from a trusted person. So think about the real estate agent. They have the flyer in the house. The home buyer is curious about the home. They want to run some scenarios on their own. What we've also heard is the listing agent uses it as an opportunity to talk about, well, we could talk about seller credits or a buy down or different information that the home buyer might not be thinking of. Yeah. And so it's an educational opportunity. So do we have then two different use cases? One is it's an open house situation where we don't know who the people are coming through scanning codes or clicking links. So that's going to go to some type of, and I can see an image on your page, kind of a branded landing page, if you will. But then the other use case is if I'm the LO and I've been working with this potential buyer and they're just trying to find a home, right? The usual kind of timeline of that finding a home and everything. Then any clicking or linking they do regarding live real time rate updates goes to scenarios that are built specifically for that user's qualifications. Yeah. Very personalized and very relevant and very real. So it's the real rates and exactly what they're going to pay. We don't want people getting into a home that they really shouldn't be able to afford. So setting those guard rails in terms of the setup on the back end prior to is important so that you're creating success for your potential home buyers because that's what's going to get you warm referrals in the future from them. It's very interesting, very interesting. So I'm thinking like the value proposition, there's a number of them, right? But listing agents for one, connect with listing agents. This is an interesting thing, especially if the proposition which you're aware of listeners have heard probably myself and other guests talk about is helping listing agents with lead conversion, if you will, right, nurturing conversion. Now there's various listing agents with different levels of success or systems they've gotten placed to do that. However, that would be I think would be a conversation I'm having with listing agents. What do you do with your open house leads? How do you manage those? How do you keep them update in real time and things like that? What do you say to that? I think that gets into how the LO is organizing their current database. So if you've heard me speak in the past, I always am a huge proponent of CRMs and how you keep those leads either nurtured, organized, the ability to mine your database. So if they are reached out to buy a potential home buyer from that source that's on them to then go ahead and organize that into the process that they're familiar with and they're comfortable with. Every loan officer is different but being able to think about what the outreach opportunity is. So for me, if I was the loan officer and you have a potential home buyer reaching out, I would capture that information. But then I would also follow up with value. I mean value added services is really something I feel strongly about. And so to be able to say, hey, it's great that we connected. I think you're on the right path. Check out this, buyers tool that we have for you. It's white labeled to that LO company. And now you just send them on their way. They can go searching. The assumption there is that you're doing all the right things as a loan officer. You're building the relationship, the commonalities, how that discussion goes so that they feel comfortable wanting to move forward with you. Do you get analytics, right? Like other platforms, blah, blah, whatever, right? They do analytics, opens, clicks, things like that. Yep. Loan officers are able to see the pertinent information that's related to the flyer creation or the use of the tool so they can make decisions that way on their own as well. So right now, it's an enterprise play, but you're planning on rolling out in the new year, the opportunity for individual loan officers to purchase your product, correct? Yeah, that's on the road map. That's the plan. You know, enterprise right now is how most of our customers are signed up, I think. And we are acquiring quite a few customers at a fast rate. It does seem to be the preferred method, but we want to be able to tailor what we offer to anybody out there. So that is the plan for phase two. Yeah. What one I've had other folks like you on, right? Sometimes there's an individual loan officer listening right now and you perhaps can be the internal champion, you know, to bring this to somebody internally if you choose to. I've got no, you know, dog in this hunt. I don't get anything for this. I just think, you know, I like talking about technology and this is a pretty cool tech. I'm curious, maybe the answer's obvious because it's an enterprise sale, but you know, there's other platforms out there that, you know, would charge a fee to LOs to bring on realtors. Do you have any insights on what that might look like in the in the future? In terms of the cost of the technology. Yeah, we don't not specific numbers, but, you know, like for example, let's say I'm an individual LLO and and or how does it work on enterprise law, you know what I mean in terms of that? Well, I'll say very competitive. If you were to close one deal off of this specific technology and attribute it directly back to that relationship that you might have with the listing agent you've paid for the system for the next seven to eight years. So it's literally it's it's it's it's a I don't know what I can say it's it's not a triple digit monthly cost. No, what I meant by that to be spiss more specific and I know some listeners know what I'm talking about is okay, I'm mom and LL, I have it. Oh, I want to invite realtors. Well, that's going to cost you X amount per month for realtor. Oh, no. Okay. Cool. No, no, no, no, no, no, I would call that nickel and diming. It's one flat rate and you get three great features. You can tell that it's the vinyl LLO then because yeah, exactly. Oh, there's a lot of stories about that. So no doubt, no doubt. Well, this is very cool. So it's the website is called GetUplist.com G-E-T-U-P-L-I-S-T. GetUplist.com. You can go there learn more. You can schedule a demo, I guess, if you want, but I would say to minimum, check it out and get with Ben and his team to learn more about, is it the right fit for your company? And then of course, builders. Let's not forget about builders. You have a functionality relevant for builders. Tell me about that. Yeah, it really plays to the builders listing agents that they have. So similar to the general real estate listing agent, the opportunity to provide those efficiencies at that point because that's a part of the business we don't want to forget about. And it's again, when we think about the market, it's a tough market. We got to think about where can we go to try and drum up business? And that's one that is another opportunity. Okay, great. Very impressive. And I think this is what's cool about technology is going to continue to facilitate, which I think, this is again, let me just why I wanted to have you here because as you know me, all this tech, all the everything fundamentally, it still comes down to conversations with the value. And value, for sure, right? I guess that's an assumption that it's going to be a valuable interchange, although that's not always the case. You know, exactly. I mean, I think about, well, what am I going to do to I can go to networking events. I can post on social media. I can, you know, try and do educational things with my partners, but what am I going to talk about? And how am I going to bring that value to them? And so I feel like, again, this is an easy opportunity for you to have something to talk about. And it's it's not just fluff. It's something that people universally have let me know they think is a really great option for them. You keep can I throw you a curve ball question? It's been curve balls the whole time. All right. So the future, your crystal ball of the partnership, the alignment between L.O. and agent, whatever that whatever the version of the agent, and this is in the spirit of the NAR situation, you and I talked about before hitting record. What advice would you give or any forecasting crystal ball right around that dynamic that's been existing in our industry for decades is the importance of the lender agent relationship going away. I mean, I think it's always going to have its place and have value. I do think that the home buyer is going to have a stronger voice going forward in terms of the control that they have, the options that they have. And that's kind of what I've been thinking about the last couple days since NAR came out is how is this going to change things if this doesn't end up being final and it'll probably get hung up and appeals. But I think at the end of the day, it's always an evolution. So you have to think about all of the different players and all the different value you could potentially provide to each of them and make sure you have something in your back pocket that's going to help them feel safe, secure and interested in wanting to be a part of that conversation with you. Yeah, like that. And that goes along along with what I talk about as well, which is the different pillars of business and the sources. So the real estate agent is just one pillar. Consumer direct air quotes is another one. And what are those means or funnels, if you will, by which you're going to engage with consumer direct? The obvious choices, right? Run ads, paid leads, social media. But then there's the other integration points where you know, you building your own database of consumers, potential buyers. And then what are the mechanisms by which you can use that? And I just think this is an example of another one of those tools that you know, you can do that with. Yeah, for sure. All right, Mr. Ben Smith, any final parting words of wisdom besides, go to getuplist.com and check it out. No, I appreciate the time. And this was fun. Yes, fun as always. Sorry, it's been so long, but hey, you know, we're both very, very busy. So thank you for making time and sharing with our listeners. Thank you. All right. Hey, by the way, listeners, you know what to do if you like this episode, leave a review if you don't mind and or share it with somebody that you think would find it useful. So appreciate you tuning in. We'll see you on the next one. Bye for now. Hey, guys, what's up? Real quick, you've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before and I just want to quickly remind you of that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchase loans. You need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase business for you. Well, good news. 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