Why Most Loan Officers Get ZERO ROI From Social Media

What's up, guys? I am so excited for a very special takeover of the one and only Jeff Zimfer's Mortgage Marketing Radio. I am Michelle Michael, your guest host for this episode. And let me start by saying that Jeff is one of my favorite humans. We go way, way, way back. And I remember when I first met him, he was the second podcast that I, Michelle Michael, have ever been on back in 2020 at the height of COVID. And Jeff and I have since become very good friends, trusted advisors, call me, hey, before you make any decision type of person. So I'm really grateful for Jeff. I'm excited about this podcast takeover to be able to just love on him, serve you guys as his audience. while he continues to recover. So thanks for being here and let's jump in. I am very excited to interview a really good friend of mine because when Jeff told me he wanted me to do this takeover, he said, Michelle, you teach people how to outbound prospect through social communication. Can you interview someone that has really successfully done that? And I said, I know just the girl. So Jen, I'm so excited to have you and to have you on the show with me to be able to support Jeff's audience. So for those of you guys who don't know, I'm excited to have Jennifer Butcher here. She is a 25 plus year veteran internist. in the mortgage industry and she lives and or is based out of the twin cities, Minnesota. So for reference point of where we are in the country, I think that's really fun because she's in a unique part of the country that I have never been to, but I will get to go to in October for the first time. And she also is the host of her own podcast. She talks money. So I love this woman and I also love that she loves money. So that's what we're here to talk about, right? ROI from social media. So Jen, welcome to mortgage marketing radio. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you because I love and adore you and you've had such an impact on me and my business. So I'm excited to share with others. I love it. Well, let's jump right in because I know people are probably thinking, what are these girls going to talk about? So here's what I want you guys to know. Outbound prospecting through social is the name of the game. If you are tired of spending time, energy, and money and you're worried, like, have I been able to make any money off of my time and effort here? Most people will say no. Right. And Jen, I think you and I both had that conversation forever ago of I'm tired of spending the time and the energy on content creation, feeling like it's not making me any money. And that's why you reached out to me, because we now work together through my signature program called Drivers and Levers. So tell me a little bit about what you're doing or more so what you were doing beforehand. And where if you had a frustration around the content side, meaning I'm putting time and energy into content, but nothing's happening. Can you kind of dissect that for us? Yeah. So let's just take it back because I feel like everybody, both on the mortgage side and the real estate side, are telling their people you have to be on social, right? Like that is just your new business card. Your website is where you are on social. But going back five or six years, I like not even that far as interest rates were climbing up 22, whatever that was. I think we all felt the frustration of the wrong message getting to people, right? Interest rates are climbing. The world is ending. Housing is going to crash, all of the things. And I had already been doing social media content, but that is what really drove me to get more messaging out because I felt like I was having the same conversation with every client over and over and over again. I was like, I want... to reach a bigger audience and so i like doubled down and i'm like i'm putting out five five videos every single week and and and making sure that i'm getting this messaging out which was great it got me more seen and more known but where people get so frustrated is when we say you have to put out content they like want it like we're in this like immediate gratification world right and they want instant grad they want an instant loan from it or an instant deal from it and that's None of that went to waste, but I did, after putting out content every single day, get a little bit more frustrated with, okay, when am I really going to see an ROI on this? How can I get more business from this? And that's where you stepped in and challenged me and put me on a 30-day challenge. And it was just like, okay, here we are. Here's my business. And it's been awesome. I was like, it was just literally tweaking a little bit of what I was doing and being more intentional about what business I wanted, where I needed it to come from, and to utilize the relationships and the people that I already have. And it's just been incredible, the success that I've had from that in a very short period. I'm so excited because we're going to dissect those results. We're going to get real into the nitty gritty because people care, right? What is, what's your batting average? We're going to talk about that. And we're going to talk about what the 30 day challenge was that I put you through so that people can really understand. the simplicity yet the intentionality that went into this assignment for you. But before we do, I feel like this is the million dollar question, which is, okay, so you double down on video, you double down on producing content, you double down on, I have to have a brand and a visual aesthetic and I have to have all these things. Can we talk money for a second? How much are you spending or did you spend on all of that on a monthly basis? Because I also think this is an important part of the conversation, right? Because if I'm going to spend XYZ amount of money on this on a monthly basis for support for content production, support for video production, what is that costing you? And I think that number, whatever that is, right, which I'm hoping you'll share with us, That's where the anxiety comes from for a lot of people where they're like, I'm not I'm now not making any money or I'm spending X amount of dollars per month and I'm not making enough of that back. So there is where that tension point between those two things start to start to exist. Yeah, and how much money you spend and I will share my dollars is really up to you. For the first two years, I honestly spent almost zero dollars because I did it all myself. I batch recorded. When I very first started, I was putting out three videos per week. And I told myself, my first challenge to myself was I'm going to do that for an entire year. And that meant there were some Saturdays I woke up at five o'clock in the morning to batch record my next videos for the following week because I didn't get it done the week prior. That's how intentional, like I was set on accomplishing that. So I would batch record at least three to six videos so I could get ahead a week. And then I would just literally throw them and cap cut on my phone, edit them, and then post them. So you can do it with a telephone. Like these have amazing cameras, right? Get a cheaper wireless mic is what I recommend. And go to like, find your go-to resources on what content you want to put out there. So you can do it yourself. Now, once I got to a point where I'm like, okay, I'm going to put out more content than that. I want to hit at least five videos per week. And my playground is primarily Instagram, but I'm expanding on that. Then I did hire a social media manager because for me to get it done, I almost needed some accountability. So she and I meet once a week. We shoot content, which can include podcast episodes, social media content, that type of thing. I also use her as a resource so that I offer it to my top real estate agent partners that we will meet at a listing of theirs and we'll shoot content together. We'll shoot content for them. That's kind of an add-on bonus that I offer my real estate partners. And so she is about, depending on the number of videos that we do and the number of times that we meet, but she can be about $1,300 to $1,800 per month. And that includes shooting the videos, editing videos, posting videos. Like I literally don't have to touch my social media besides what I do with you with regard to putting out my content if I don't want to. But again, I did most of that on my own for almost zero dollars prior to that. So you don't have to jump in. Well, this is so good. And I'm glad you shared the number because I talk to people, I swear, once or twice a week at least that are spending upwards of $2,500 to $5,000 a month between all of this stuff. Right? I'll tell you. Yeah. No, I mean, When I found her, I had talked to several social media companies. I have been quoted up to $5,000 per month for someone to run my social media. And what I think the hard part for people and loan officers is that we are in a unique, we're in a unique industry where if the person that is helping you does not have a little bit of real estate and finance background, it's really hard for them to grasp the type of content that we have to put out. You know what I mean? I think people are getting better at it now. I had a lot of fail hires before I found the person. She happened to be a commercial real estate agent, gone photographer, and then getting into social media. So I kind of finally found the perfect blend of the person that had the background necessary to understand the type of content and the audience that I was chasing. So it is a little bit of a, you know, but I think there's a lot more people out there now. So you can certainly find people that can. Well, two things. One, she was hyperlocal to you, which I think has a lot of value. And, you know, as someone who has been in this world for a long time, yes, people have hired us for help with this in the past, but I always tell them to defer to hyperlocal. It's just better, right, in that sense. But I will also tell you that I cannot express enough or put enough emphasis on what you just said, which is this person, if they don't have an understanding of the mortgage or the real estate or like the finance background, it is like oil and water. It is very, very difficult to get somebody to understand what you're trying to produce from a content perspective. And as someone who has eaten, breathed and slept mortgage for the last, I don't know, almost seven years, that's one of the number one things that people say when they hire us, which is especially for drivers and leavers or hire me for that piece specifically is, Michelle, you speak the mortgage language and that's really, really important. And it really is, right? I mean, I can't even tell you, you and I have joked about this, like how many mortgage jobs I've been offered over the years or Just recently, I had a sales manager from a big company reach out and say, Michelle, can you let come be our sales director? And I'm flattered. Like, I love that. Yeah. But no, right? So, but it's one of those things, again, when you can speak the language, it makes the production of it easier. But I also want people to hear what you said, again, because this shouldn't cost you $5,000 a month to do it. Like that's just a number that you're probably paying for what you think the quality would be. But I want people to go to your social, which we're going to put, I'm sure Jeff will put that in the show notes for everybody to go find you. But if you go look at Jen's social, if you're listening to this, it looks five star. Like the quality is so high. So it's not a matter of the dollar figure that you need to care about. Meaning like sometimes people say, you know, you get what you pay for. And certainly in some circumstances that is accurate. Yeah. But when it comes to this, when you put the time and the due diligence into finding her the way that you did and her background matches those two things, I mean, clearly it doesn't need to break your bank. Can I also say the importance of sitting down with a notebook and paper and identifying your audience and identifying what do you want to be known for? because a social media person isn't necessarily going to pull that out of you. You have to identify how do you want to show up on social? What do you want to be known for? You know what I mean? Like I have a lot of talking heads, educational videos that might just get five to 600 views per video. And they're not, you know what I mean? And then I can go do trending dancing one with my realtor purchase and get 20,000 views. But guess what I'm known for? Education. I can't tell you how many agents call me. for financial advice not just mortgage advice financial advice or they say i saw your video on that credit card tip and i didn't even know that and i'm so excited that you shared that with me so identify what you want to be known for and who your target audience is before you jump in and hire anybody and then find where do you actually need help You know what I mean? Like we all should be able to come up with our own content. You're having conversations, record the conversations, throw it into chat, say, based on this conversation, give me 10 scripts. You know what I mean? You should be able to come up with your own content, but are you struggling to record it? Do you need help there? Are you struggling to post it? Are you, you know, identify like where it is exactly that you need help? What can you do? Where do you need help? Because then you don't end up overpaying for something that you're going to end up doing some of the work for anyways. But also you just said like the golden nugget of social, right? Which is my number one thing I say all the time is that it's not about virality. It's about the ability to stay visible and to be known and heard and seen in an area that is true to who we are. Right. So I get 500, 600 views is what I heard you say, but it's on the content that actually makes you money gets 500 or 600 views. The content that makes you feel good, the dopamine aspect, right? The I got 20,000 views on this cool video doesn't make you money. And that's what people need to understand. So I want to transition us. Go look up. And this is I'm not knocking people, but go look up some of the agents that are really big that have a huge following and then go look at their production. I mean, really cute and pretty on social and not be doing that. I don't know your goal, but my goal is to do higher production and build the business. So my goal is what's in my business bank account so that I can pay my girls and my employees and pay myself. Right. Like, come on. So I think it's it's paramount what we're talking about here. But it is a perfect transition point, because for me, watching you on social has been so fun over the years. We've had the pleasure of meeting in person and we get to do it again in October. This episode, I think, is releasing in June. And so if you're hearing this, come October, Jen and I are actually putting together or going to be together to put on an event in Minneapolis together on her behalf. And then my husband is actually running the marathon there. So I'm very, very excited to get some Jen fun friend time and also some Jen fun work time. But with that being said, social has the power to bring individuals together, right? And when you bring two people together that have similar experiences, goals, have similar mindset, and ultimately have the same desire for their people that they are serving. You get this really beautiful combination. So a couple of months ago, might be closer to six months ago now, you reached out to me and you said, Michelle, I'm ready to prospect on social. I've seen what you're doing on that side. It's not been working for me in this other category of coaching that I was doing. So can you can we talk about this and can you help me with that? So can you tell me about why from your mind, just where were you miss? What were you missing and why was drivers and leavers, which we'll dissect here in a minute, ultimately what your decision was as far as how you wanted to proceed? Yeah, I'm going to be really raw and some people might not like messaging. But I've been doing this for 25 years and I've been through a lot of coaching and I've spent a lot of money on coaching and I'm not knocking any other coaching. I think you have to choose what fits best for you. But I was really getting tired of and I'm not saying... You know, you have to have a calendar. You have to put in the phone calls. But at 25 years in this business, I was tired of the cold calling. I was tired of doing that. And I enjoy creating content. I love sharing on social. And I knew that what you do was a better fit. I just knew I needed to fine tune it to get a better ROI out of it. And so after... I don't want to say it was failed coaching, but just like after doing that and putting in the work and yes, it kind of helped my numbers, but I wasn't finding joy in it. It wasn't bringing me joy and it wasn't giving me more freedom and time with my family that I needed. It was more of like this hustle culture, like you have to get up earlier and you have to work harder and you have to, you know what I mean? And I'm like, no, there's a better way. I'm going to do this my way. And I knew you were the person to reach out to help me do that. Well, I just love what you said because I know you're a mom. I'm a mom. And if you're listening to this and you're a gentleman, you're probably a dad or know someone who is and have experienced their life or how they've had to balance their life. But for me, right, I don't want to be on the phone 24-7. I don't want to be. constantly face planting into my text messages or my emails all day, every day. I don't. Right. And yes, for me, there is a metric that we track, which we're going to, I'm going to share with you guys. But yes, I do do the things that I need to do to have a very successful and sustainable business. But it was never going to be in exchange of I want to hold my baby or I want to go to the park with my son or I want to go be the one to take him on a play date in the morning because one of my best girlfriends said, hey, I'm going to put the water slide up. Like, those are just some things for me that I just wasn't willing to let go of. And I know that you shared that sentiment. And yes, your kids are a little bit older than mine, but the sentiment remains the same. And it doesn't change as our kids grow up. If anything, I feel like it gets more intense because you realize that years are short, which you and I have talked about. But let me introduce Drivers and Leavers. For those of you guys who are listening to this and you have no idea what the heck I'm talking about, Drivers and Leavers is a signature program that I developed in the middle of a miscarriage in 2024. So I... went through and suffered, you know, what most women pray they never have to go through. And ultimately what came out of that was the prospecting program that teaches mortgage, real estate, sales professionals, and entrepreneurs how to outbound prospect on social specifically. Meaning we are prospecting, but we are using the vehicles of social to do it. Meaning sending a message to someone on Instagram or sending a message to someone on LinkedIn. We're sending a message to someone on Facebook. But the methodology is wildly, stupidly simple. And no, this is not a drill. It is literally one message every day. to somebody that you do not know with the intention of creating opportunity for yourself. What that opportunity looks like is something that drives revenue into your business. So you are in search of an opportunity that can drive revenue for you. So the opportunity itself is what we want, right? Notice I did not say the word lead because if Jen would have called me and said, Michelle, I need more leads, I would have said, girl, I'm not the right person for you because that's the wrong mindset to have going into prospecting. So especially when you're trying to scale your opportunities, you cannot look at it from an individual lead perspective. Right. So opportunities is what we are trying to create that drive revenue. And we do it through the levers. Right. Hence drivers and levers. So our levers are our people that are in our life that can build bridges between drivers. to individuals, right? So we have a relationship with the lever that's going to get us in front of the person that we do not know. So drivers and levers has a starting 30 day challenge that I assign every client once they understand their drivers, once we've built out their levers, once they've got full clarity on the four part messaging framework and what to say in those messages, that's when we start the 30 day challenge. So Jen has now completed that 30 day challenge. Very, very close to the day that we are recording this episode. So this data is very fresh. But my goal for you guys, when you hear Jen dissect her 30 days here, is that her batting average has significantly changed, meaning she is more successful at getting yeses with less effort. Right. Meaning I only have her do one message every day. I'm not telling her to go send 20 or 25 because that is not a sustainable business model, nor do I want to be the person that does that every day. Right. I don't want to. I don't want her to. And I don't want I don't want to. So a sustainable business model is as simple as one message every day to somebody that you do not know with the intention of getting a booked call on your calendar that is going to help you acquire one of the drivers that creates the opportunity in your business that you need. And how you get the opportunity is through the lever. So Jen, talk to us about your 30 days. Go as far deeper and do it as you want. And then once you describe all of it to us, tell us what your batting average was. Well, first of all, I feel like a VIP because I'm like booking out in late July right now because my calendar is so full. People are like, wait, what? I'm like, I am so busy. Also, the literal music to my ears as a coach though is when I get those text messages from my clients and they're like, Michelle, I literally had to take a week off because my calendar is too full because it works. Yeah. Yeah. It does work. So my main, I kind of created a spreadsheet and my drivers were to book real estate meetings. So meetings with real estate agents, meetings with financial planners. And then I host a podcast, but my goal was to be a guest on other podcasts as well as find guests for my podcast. And then I'm also scheduling webinars. So in those 30 days, I landed one podcast. See, it gets kind of tricky because what happens here is I have my levers and then those levers, I get meetings. I've gotten meetings with those people, but then those people end up becoming levers because they've introduced me to other people. So it gets tricky to track, but I landed on a podcast and then I got two podcast guests. But out of that, I landed an additional two podcasts. So I kind of have a total of five, I guess. I have five podcasts. I reached out to five people, but I had two people that didn't actually respond. So I guess I'm 100% there, but that was because of other introductions, if that makes sense. But when you send the first initial message to that person that you land, that then creates other opportunities. So this is where momentum, guys, happens. So momentum, aka the snowball effect of one leads to the next, leads to the next, leads to the next. Yeah. Yes. And two of these people are national keynote speakers. Like they're really big introductions, which were amazing. So that, and one of them happens to be in Minneapolis for this huge women's conference. So she was like, I want to meet you in person. So that was really exciting and a huge opportunity. I also had a very successful meeting with one financial planner who will abs has already we've already exchanged referrals and we're planning on a couple events together. So that was like a huge hit. And then I scheduled six real estate meetings just in those 30 days. I actually have more into July that I didn't count, but I'm trying to like look at this first month's calendar. And then I have one webinar scheduled. So of those 30 contacts, I feel like I'm looking at my numbers five. Like I'm almost, I'm approaching 50% batting average. So guys, last week, and then now I feel like I'm closer to 50. Yeah. So when we first met on your 30 days, when you had originally completed it, you just said you were around 30% batting average, which is still incredible, right? From a conversion standpoint. But within a week from that meeting with me to today, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, We're now closer to 50% because other people respond. Maybe they're slow to respond. Two, you get additional introductions from a meeting. I can't even tell you the amount of times that I get on a meeting with one person. It's a great, great meeting. And they're like, oh, I need to introduce you to this person. So sometimes you may look at your number and say, I only landed five meetings, but those five meetings created 10 more meetings, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I just, first of all, for, for me, from the coaching perspective, this is so fun to hear because you are already successful without me. Right. Meaning I didn't, you didn't need me to be more successful in your own business. you chose some, a way for yourself to compartmentalize and be more intentional with these specific things that you wanted to land on your calendar, right? You had a goal of doing a very specific chunk of certain things, right? Getting a financial planner, getting divorce attorneys, getting involved in other industries that are going to help you expand your network, right? That was something you really hadn't done intentionally. And now you have. And I Yeah. And you know what? I'll be honest. Like I was getting meetings before. Obviously, I've been on Google. People know my name. I was pretty much landing most of the meetings I would reach out to. When you can use a lever and using your specific methodology, you walk into it immediately with a deeper connection. And that little tiny difference, it ends up making a big difference. When you can reference someone that you know and they already know, like, and trust, it's like you go in with even more authority. And it makes a difference in those meetings. I've converted all of them. I've had agents that say, I need to get you in front of my entire brokerage. It's just, it creates a better opportunity. Well, let's talk about the four-part messaging framework, because this, I think, was probably the thing from my seat that had the biggest impact on you, because you're an amazing person. You're super easy to talk to. You're beautiful. You have all the things, right? So it's not a matter of like, I can't get a yes, but where you were struggling was the messaging and how you were setting up the messages was not where I wanted it to be. And I'm not going to say why I'm going to let you explain it, but- Talk to me about, or talk to everybody, right? About the transformation from here's what I wrote initially to here's how I write a message now. Yeah. I think initially I like, even before you, I was pretty direct, right? I was more in like, I would glance at somebody's social media. I would follow them or make comments for a little bit. And then I would try to like compliment them and just make it like, Hey, let's meet. Like it was a pretty direct meeting. I think your method. And when I first started, started, I struggled because I wanted to like jump to the, hey, can you meet next week? But it's like, wait, Jen, like, no, we're going to use like, how do you know the lever and not just dropping their name? I would just want to name drop and like jump to it. But you're like, no, you really have to identify that connection. Like I have been working with Ashley for a year and like, here's how we really connect. And then moving on to you know, complimenting them and then moving on to like why we like kind of creating that FOMO or like why, why they should want to meet with me and then the close of like scheduling the meeting. So once I like made sure I was hitting every, like all four points, the conversions happen a lot faster. Been a lot faster. And you already said it when you get on the meetings, it's just different. Like it, So it's one thing to get the meeting. It's another thing to get on the meeting and start the meeting where you have this really solid common ground to the point where like the first five to 10 minutes, you're not even talking about work. And that's the whole goal, right? And most people for, you know, most people, when they get a meeting, they'll just send a message and say, can you jump on zoom on Friday? Do you have any time? And no, I don't because you didn't give me a specific time. So no, first issue. But second issue is I might just say yes, but I don't know really why I'm taking this meeting. Therefore, I'm going to maybe go into the meeting with a little bit of a different taste in my mouth than I would if I'm going into this meeting on Friday with you knowing that our mutual connection is Cindy or our mutual connection is whoever. And so we're going to talk about the things we love about Cindy or the things that we have connected before we even start. Right. Like you and I both love fitness and you have a sauna that I've been dying to get my husband to say yes to us buying. So, you know, you get on a call with someone and you're like, I want to talk about life first. And then, oh, by the way, we should also talk about the business that we're supposed to be talking about here. But it makes the yes at the end of the meeting, a.k.a. your ability to your point to convert all of those meetings. into an instant yes. Whereas, you know, some people, maybe they might be 50% batting average of getting the meeting, but they're only 10% of converting the meeting, which I don't want a 50% batting average and only a 10% of that 50% conversion because that sucks. Yeah. And I also like to point out that, and maybe this is just me in my older age and in my, like, I'm really being careful of who I surround myself with era. But you tend to find your people. Like when you are using a lever that you respect their morals and their values and the type of person that they are, and especially with women, like they're a woman supporting person. They're introduced, you know, I'm looking at people that are similar to them and I'm meeting people similar to them. And so, A, when you're in that personal conversation and you're connecting, you're realizing like I'm enjoying these meetings more and I'm I'm really feeling more fulfilled. because I'm around other people that are on my level or higher that I want to aspire to be like, but they're really supportive, right? And then because of that introduction, you're more likely to walk away from that meeting with them saying, you know what, I have to introduce you to so-and-so because we have something in common already. And now I'm getting more meetings just from those people. So it's that that's I look at all of this and I'm like, OK, getting meetings and all of that is great. But just I'm actually enjoying my business at a level like I don't think I ever have before. And this was coming off of like we just made a major change. Like we were at the same company for 25 years and made a change in January. And I will be really honest when we were making that change. I was considering changing careers completely. I was like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. And I'm really glad that I stuck with it because even just in the last six months, I'm like, I found my like. passion for it again. And especially in the last just 30 days of doing this, I'm like, there, there are a lot of badass, amazing people out there that I do want to surround myself with. And it's, it's been fun getting rid of the ick and just welcoming, you know, the good. Yeah. And I mean, one of the people I know you met with is someone that I now get to meet with, which I'm excited and I'm looking forward to meeting her. But to your point, right, you find joy in working with people that actually let you up on the inside, right? You share the morals and the ethics and all of that. And that really makes a huge difference because if I'm going to get on a call and feel like I'm being talked down to the entire time or that I, you know, I haven't earned the right to be on that screen and I have to somehow like give my thesis to get them to say yes to me, like I don't want to do it. right? That's, that's not where I want to be. And I know you've been in the business way longer than me. I'm coming up on 12 years. And so I look at it from like, you know, I'm half of where you are and I already feel that way. So I can't even imagine what I would feel in 12 more years. But I, the last thing I want to talk about around the messaging piece before we wrap this up is there are some, some sayings or some sentences that are out there that almost, I feel like And I feel like I nipped that one in the butt with you very, very quickly. And I would love for you to allude to that and kind of explain that. And I say it from this perspective before I want you to answer that. Right. We get messages on LinkedIn. We get messages on Instagram where we get all of these messages every single day from people trying to sell us something. people trying to earn something from us, even if that's just a meeting. But there is so much slop out there when it comes to this. There's so much copy and paste, copy and paste. And I'm just going to mass produce this and pray that one piece of my spaghetti is going to stay on the wall. And I have hate it. And so for me, when I read it from someone, I don't want to respond to them. So therefore, when I coach someone on it, I'm like, no, ma'am, you are not allowed to use that sentence in your message. So I would love for you to talk about that if you're comfortable sharing it. Well, give me an example because I feel like you've corrected me in a lot of areas. I know I was really like a little salesy. So give me an example of a sentence. Yeah. I mean, like if you remember when you were trying to reach out for a podcast episode from someone that you were trying to land with, right? And one of the things that you said was, I see what you're doing in the industry and I love that you're, you know, X, Y, Z. And I like, so I see what you're doing in the industry or I love what you're doing in the industry to bring people together. Like it's like the sort of what's the word, like generic sort of fluffy sentences that just don't land. Yes. So I like when you say that, because I think when you when you talk about your system and it's like one message a day. Yes, that is very easy. But that one message does come with some research. Right. So I'm now spending 30 minutes in the morning. Yeah. really fine tuning and thinking about my message and who I'm sending the message to and doing a little social stalking. Let's just call it what it is. Like your social stalking that person, especially you yes, you have the lever and you might have that introduction, but I want to be the, the purpose is to be very intentional. So to your point, I'm not just saying I love, I love your content. Great. Like we all love everybody's content. What is it about my content that you like? Yeah. So it is actually, it gets really fun to deep dive on someone and feel like before I send that message, I actually know a little bit now more about them. Like, you know, for example, like I have my son plays hockey. So it's always fun to find other moms if I'm reaching out to a, a mom or a dad that any real estate agent and they have kids in sports, like that is a deeper connection, you know? So to be able to send a message and be very specific with them about like, I, not just I love your content, but I saw how you coached or, you know, that comment about the coaching on your hockey team. And I can relate to that. So being very specific and intentional to create that connection, I think is, is what maybe you're alluding to. Yeah, for sure. And the other ones, there's two that are popping into my mind right now. So one sentence that I feel like is consistently overused and overstated in outbound prospecting around the mortgage space is I'm sending you a message or I'm reaching out to you because I see that, or I would love to know what you think is actually working in today's market, right? That's one. I hate it. It's so gross. That's number one. Another one is the whole, like, I see what you're doing in the market and I would, and I love the influence that you have or, and I love that everybody's been talking about you, right? It's sort of this sort of like generic, I think we might know each other, but we don't actually know each other. So I'm trying to make myself sound important, right? And the third thing is, which you've already talked about the personal connection part, but the third thing is that people love to name drop, but they love to name drop people just to make themselves look good, but they don't have any depth to the introduction. And when you have no depth to the introduction, I'm out. Yep. Yeah. A hundred percent. You have to describe how you know that person. And yes, absolutely. And also you have to build intent. You know, when I'm looking at somebody's content, I was just looking at an agent. She, she, and she's not local, right? She's national and I can be licensed in that state, but I just, I have so much respect for her because of the type of content that she puts out and how she is very, very specific about like, you know, and she's just outside drinking coffee this morning, talking about like, this is literally how I handle my listing appointments and like talks through and scripting and, You know what I mean? Like I had so much respect with the way that she did her content, actually, like how well she described and educated people on like what she's doing. The fact that she's so willing and openly willing to share it like that is something specific that you can comment on, not just, oh, I love your content. Yeah. And you should. And you should. Yeah. And the other one I just remembered, I just popped into my brain, but where people will make comments and say things like, there's so much noise online right now. And I love hearing different perspectives from people shaping the industry, right? Like that sentence, that little one liner right there. Yeah. If you're using it, first of all, stop it. But second of all, find a better way to say the exact same thing based off of what you just described, Jen. Because if you're going to say, I love hearing other voices that are shaping the industry right now, period, that's going to fall super flat and I don't care. But if you're going to say that sentence and then to your point, go into specifically what I love about it is how you're just sitting outside on your back patio, drinking a cup of coffee, talking about something where most people think that this type of content needs to be super edited and over scripted. And it just doesn't feel authentic. And I feel like everyone thinks that they can't share that information because somehow that's like giving away the cheat code, but you just don't really give it. Like put those two paragraphs side by side. And which one am I going to respond to? And which one am I going to be like, wow, Jen actually wrote that for me. Now I really want to read it or respond to it. Yes. And reverse engineer it, right? Like if somebody was reaching out to you, what would you respond to? You know, like we're doing some recruiting coaching right now because also some of this outbound prospecting is to build my team and reach out to other loan officers. And it's interesting to hear some of the generic scripting. And it's like, okay, coming from someone who just made a company change, I know the recruiter's scripting that I hung up on and wouldn't give two seconds to because I didn't want to hear the same message they were saying to everybody. I could tell the people that actually went to my profile, did a little bit of research, understood who I was, and just genuinely wanted to build a relationship with me. And it makes all of the difference. It really does. It really does. We could talk about this forever, but I don't think Jeff wants us to for sake of his show. But what I do want to encourage you guys first and foremost is pray for Jeff and let's continue to love on Jeff. He is such an amazing human in the mortgage industry. Someone who I just have the utmost respect for, who's walked the walk every day consistently for years. And I am privy to have seen a lot of the changes he's made career-wise to eventually going out and being 100% on his own. And as someone who has done exactly that. It's just really special to be able to do this with you, Jen, in honor of Jeff and to support him. So let's just all choose to continue to pray for Jeff and make sure that he knows and has felt our prayers as he continues to walk this cancer journey and hopefully get to the other side here really soon. But Jen, thank you for being on here with me. Thank you for sharing and really letting people behind the curtain because I think we're done with the fluff, right? Let's be direct. Let's get to it. And does it work or does it not? And you are living proof that it does. And I'm honored to be your coach. I'm honored to be your friend. And I'm just incredibly proud of you. And I think, you know, if you're listening to this and you're, you want to know more about Jen, who Jen is, what she does. She has an amazing podcast where she loves to talk about the financial side of things. And of course, money, because money matters, right? We're not living for money, but we are, we do need money to live. Right. So we're not living for money, but we do need money to live. And I, and I love your perspective on so many things. Your mindset is just next level. And if you're a loan officer listening to this saying, I want to find my joy. She's somebody that's found it. So until next time, thank you guys. And Jen, thank you again. You're just awesome. And will you tell people how they can find you online? Yes. Instagram at Jennifer Butcher official is the best place to find me. Perfect. Love it. Send her a message. Tell her you heard her on this show. And if you send me a message, tell me that you were able to listen and you loved it. I can't wait to be able to share with Jeff all of the wins from this. Thanks, guys. We'll see you in the next episode. Thank you.