The Real Reason Next Gen Buyers Won't Call You

Welcome to the Mortgage Marketing Radio Show. I'm your guest host, Katie Shive, and if you have been in this industry for any amount of time, then today's guest is most likely not going to be a new name for you. Kristen Messerley has been on more stages and more rooms and arguably on more podcasts than most. And she is talking about next-gen home buyers. She is the co-founder and executive director of First Home IQ, and she's been publishing the next-gen home buyer report for the last six years, surveying more than 9,000 next-gen buyers to get in their minds on what they want, what they need, and what they don't want. So the most recent report just launched, and we're going to talk all about that today. There's a few data points I promise will probably surprise you. And if you stay to the end, we're going to be talking about what she and lots of loan officers are doing in just a couple of weeks in DC. So without further ado, let's get into today's episode. Well, hey Kristen, welcome to the show, it's so fun to have you on today. Yeah, so good to hang out with you, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, well I know you're a big fan of Jeff and his community, and it's fun when all of our circles are people and our circles become friends. I know, and I'm a big fan of you, of course, so this is very fun. Well, I love it. Well, I wanted to actually start off and just share kind of a unique story of how you and I know each other. And so you and I first met, I don't know if you remember this, but it was 2021. And I was buying my first house, well, my first house with my husband, remote, like I did pretty much the whole thing remote when we were moving to Montana. And I think you and I were talking on a LinkedIn DM or something. And you were like, hey, can I interview you? And I didn't know then what you're doing and what you're doing now. But I kind of love the fact that I was his small data point in your world and now that we get to be friends. So yes, and I love that it was also at the beginning of formalizing a lot of my research because I'd been doing a lot of interviews with next-gen homebuyers and then it was right around that time that we had released our newest or the first next-gen homebuyer report. And then of course, it's been really fun to collaborate with you on that. Yeah, I definitely remember that. I love that I still made the cut for the next-gen category. So that was a nice brush from my ego. So yeah, but I remember how passionate you were about the process and it was such a great conversation. I was like, oh, I hope I get to work with her someday. And you know, then we ended up being able to do a lot of lines. Yeah. I wasn't fast forward just for everybody listening. Yeah, Kristen and I reconnected in 2023 and I was looking to get back into some marketing stuff. And Kristen's like, oh, my gosh, I'll hire you. Like, I'm not even going to interview you like, let's like, yes, let's work together. And that started. Well, that one was like weird because I had thought of you and then you reached out and I was like, like just a, yeah, so right. Yeah. I think I sent you, I sent you a message at a LinkedIn DM at like 11 o'clock at night. And I was like, hey, not sure, but and then you responded of like, oh, my gosh, like let's get on a Zoom and then, you know, the rest is history. So yes. I love that we get to talk today about the next-gen home buyer report because obviously you're so passionate about it. But one of the things I was saying in your intro is you've arguably probably been on the most stages in the most rooms and on the most podcasts talking about next-gen home ownership. Like there is nobody in our industry that I know that is more passionate so much so that you've literally co-founded First Home IQ. Everything you're doing is around helping to close that gap. So without going too involved with what First Home IQ is, can you just tell us like a little bit of your journey of getting into what you're doing? Yeah. So I grew up in a family of mortgage professionals. So my whole family kind of got into it and my dad had a brokerage when I was young. So I knew a lot about the industry and was always passionate about, you know, really education. And then I started my career as a social worker and I did a lot of education with people that were really very distrusting of people helping them. And that's where I became very passionate about education and building trust, a lot of homeless youth. And so that I say that specifically because it led into where I became very passionate in this industry around how to build trust with people whom the next generation are very distrusting and why it's so important to lead with education and I think those two elements are really key to creating a better future of confident homeowners and people that really understand how to make smart financial decisions and buy their first home. That's so cool because a lot of people that get into this industry obviously start in the sales side or sometimes in the ops. You completely came in like a wrecking ball like, yeah, I kind of heard around the kitchen table like my parents talking shop, but you came at it from a totally different approach which was more that psychology and the social work aspect. And I think personally that's why your work is so fascinating because you look at it through a very different lens and you've seen both sides of the conversation. Yeah, I actually, I applied a lot of the, I was trained in trauma informed care as a social worker and I applied those models and frameworks around that into the mortgage industry and when I started a company called Cultural Outreach which I did for about nine years and would work with groups of loan officers on applying those frameworks and that's where I think it became really interesting to me to see how important the psychology of money was and how important it was to apply some of those empathy based skills and trust building skills in the side of finance and mortgage and how much that really translated over. Yeah. Well, and there's no trauma in mortgage at all, like we don't need a trauma informed specialist at all. No, I would actually argue the opposite. So that's really cool. Well, let's jump in to the next-gen home buyer report because you've been doing this since 2020 consistently, right? So the last six plus years and you're, you've interviewed or at least researched more than 9,000 respondents. Is that correct? Yeah. And I was doing a lot of interviews and research before that as well. But in this formalized next-gen home buyer report sponsored by National Mive and doing that since 2020, exactly right. Okay. So, you know, when a lot of loan officers hear the phrase next-gen, I think their brain immediately goes to, you know, affordability and rates and down payment and qualification because we kind of just make that correlation or that assumption that that's what they need. But the data, at least from what you're showing, really tells a different story. So what are some of the things that are holding next-gen back that's outside of the traditional down payment myth? Well, to the point of the psychology, there's the belief that homeownership is out of reach or that it's not affordable. So there's the actual affordability challenge, which is definitely real. But then there's a, I think a much bigger challenge, which is that the next generation, Millennials and Gen Z, really think that they need a 20% down payment. They think they need perfect credit. They think they can't buy if they are gig workers and there's a lot of misinformation and lack of education that prevents people from actually even entering that process. That's crazy. So it's not just the actual affordability, but it's the belief. So like, where do you think that comes from? Like, do you think that they're hearing conversations from their parents that are saying that you need that or is that more TikTok and their friends? Yeah, I think it's a mix of everything. I mean, things get passed down and I do think that it's just like, I mean, we've surveyed people the last six years asking them about the minimum down payment required and it's really consistent. Nothing has changed in terms of like busting that myth and only this year, only 8% I think had said that it could accurately identify the minimum down payment. And I do think some of that is because of where they're getting information, but I think part of why that belief isn't changing is because there's like a lot of people get overwhelmed with information. So even if they start then going out and looking for stuff on their own and we explored this a lot in this year's report, people start to kind of shut down and that's where understanding the psychology of money and people's money story becomes so important, but you go to chat, you go to YouTube and all these sources and they're trying to become empowered consumers and find out more information, but it just kind of like their brain kind of shuts down. And for a lot of people that overwhelm prevents them, that's kind of it's like the misinformation and then the overwhelm that is another barrier to entry. Well, in the overwhelm is a lot. I think too, just when you look at AI as a tool, like we've all been excited about how much information we can all access, but to your point, you can have too much information. And then when you look at trust, it's like, well, what resource do I know to trust? And is this accurate or is this, you know, based off of a different scenario that doesn't even apply to me? Yeah, and I will say I was just talking with a friend last night about her experience of buying a home she's closing next week. And I was so frustrated because I tried to give her a lot of information about finding a good loan officer or evaluating the, you know, contact she had and the process of buying a home. And all she could think about was rate, like she just wanted to know what is the lowest rate I can get. And it was like that. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And I think for a lot of people, it's really hard to understand the complexity of what it really means to go through the mortgage process, what getting a mortgage looks like and what nuances are there and working with a mortgage professional. And I, this is something I'm actually working on with First Home IQ of adjusting the way we talk about and deliver education because it's even if you provide all the information, they're not hearing it or it's not sticking, you know, and I think it's a, that becomes again another real barrier. And this is a smart person, someone that has a great job, you know, all those things, but it was just, yeah, very fixated on that one point. Well, yeah, I mean, to your point, if you, if you were to take this to another subject, like investing or your retirement planning or anything else with money, I think because money is so emotionally charged. So there's a lot of fear that comes with it, a lot of anxiety, a lot of, you know, we're comparing ourselves to you to what your peers are doing or maybe what your parents are recommending. So if we were to translate that to another topic, like I for sure couldn't tell you what the best stock is or what the best strategy is. So I think, yeah, there's just a lot, a lot of information to sift through. Yeah, I talk a lot about this moment I had when I, I was working with a financial advisor because I have so much anxiety around, like, you're just, you know, money, all of that. Like you said, it brings emotional, it brings emotion for anybody and, but I have a lot of it. And I go into this meeting with the financial advisor, he shares my strategy, he's trying to be really like, you know, it's straightforward about things. And I just, it's like a blackout, like I don't hear anything he's saying. By or ring thought I was napping through the meeting, I get literally told me, oh, you took a nap during this and I was like, no, I was awake, I think. And um, but that's, you know, our body going into this kind of, our brain going into this shutdown of like the trauma response, you know, and I think that's why again, that, that kind of informed approach is really important because if you put too much information on someone or you're not capturing someone through, you know, that kind of, um, empathy first approach, you're going to have people just not hear anything you're saying, right? And then the, the result is your efforts are actually working against you or they're not effective. And so you could come back and say I have all of these touch points or these classes or this marketing or whatever. And again, if you're not connecting in that way first, then you're missing a lot of the efforts. Um, one of the stats that stood out to me was at six and 10, six out of 10 buyers expect the housing system to work against them before they have ever had a single conversation with a loan officer. I mean, 60% more believe it's rigged than it's helpful. So like, talk to me about that part of the, the data and like, you know, maybe what were some of the questions asked or not verbatim, but like, what was the thought process between unpacking that? Yeah. So we've been tracking trust since 2021 and seeing that in 2021, we saw that two and three felt that lenders were not trustworthy or reliable. And that was a big flag of like, okay, we need to look into this more. I have been asking a similar question every year. And this year decided to do a battery of questions, series of questions that are validated to really identify what, what do we mean by that lack of trust? And one of the things that came up was just lack of trust in the system itself. It's not necessarily the individual, but it's just that the person, the loan officer that is working in the system is incentivized to put their interest first. And so that's what people, and you look at the other questions and some of the data points that's in the report, a lot of the fear is around being taken advantage of that their, interests don't align with the loan officers interest. And so this is where it becomes so, you know, so important to see how, how you show your borrowers or your community that you are putting them first and putting that, you know, that person at ease in the conversation. But yeah, I think it's a huge, you know, the three areas that I talk a lot about are the misinformation, the overwhelm, and then this lack of trust. So for any loan officers that are listening right now that are like, cool, this is really concerning, which it should, it should concern, it should concern all of us concern us in a way to make us be better and to be more effective. What are some ways that we, that you're seeing loan officers help build trust? So I think I use this framework and in my workshops on trust that the first, first area is to tune in. So if you are in a one-on-one conversation with someone, just focus on an initial question that is, is asking them to bring up the, like, what keeps you up at night? Like, what's the anxiety there? Let's bring it to light and, and asking that question, what brings you, what, you know, what keeps you up at night or even what, yeah, what's, what's most anxious for you about this process? That allows that person to share and you are then seeing them and supporting them. And so if you say, okay, what I'm hearing you say is that you're worried, you're not going to be able to, you're going to have too big of a payment or whatever it is, then they can iterate on that, say, okay, you know, yeah, but this and, and you validating them really allows their brain to go out of this. I'm nervous, you're going to take advantage of me and this is kind of anxious place to say, okay, this person really sees me, they understand I am connected with them, I'm safe. And that sense of safety is the, the first, I mean, when I talked about trauma-informed care, it's all about creating a sense of safety. And so by tuning in and asking that question, it's a really simple way to start a conversation that allows the brain to get back online, stop being in that shutdown place and you're, you're able to engage it then in additional, you know, conversation and keep things going. Outside of the one-on-one conversation, the areas that I think build trust are by showing up in your community, aligning and partnering with people that are already trusted and then showing your, your market that you're doing that. So putting stuff online, showing that you go to, you know, for us, first on my cue, this is a big part of our mission and so doing workshops in the community or volunteering in a school or going to this National Advocacy Conference, all of those things show your market that you're different from the rest, that you put your money where, you know, what you say really counts. And I think that that's those are some ways that you can do that, but I know you have, you have ideas on that too. Yeah, well, I think it's just interesting because, you know, talk is cheap, right? So it's like, like you're saying, when you get to the one-to-one, I love asking those really personal questions because people are going to open up one-to-one in a way that they're not, you know, in maybe a group setting or a class setting. What I also think is interesting like with the social media strategy is, you know, people are looking at your content long before they're ever picking up and, you know, contacting your sending you a DM or even leaving a comment. So just finding ways even in your approach of like, how do you kind of show behind the scenes and maybe getting really personal? Like, I don't know about you, but when somebody shares their story with me, I feel a connection more quickly than if it was just, you know, not. So even talking about what you do and why you do this and yes, I'm so glad you brought that up. That is the first step that we have as, you know, we, for new ambassadors, it's talking about your why. Like, we, and it's not because we're trying to get you to share about first home IQ. We want you to share your why because it builds connection with your community and it creates a sense of mission and trustworthiness and even vulnerability. So I learned actually that I used to not talk about the fact that I had all this anxiety around money and that, you know, like what that kind of, that challenge for me. And then I realized that that was a really important part of my story to connect with people and to show, show like, this is why I'm so passionate about this. And you can trust this not just because of the data and the research, which is what I used to only rely on, but also because it's very personal to me. So yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up. When we trust, I mean, we trust people through stories. It's not just because I heard your story, I'm obviously trusting, but when you're sharing a story that is personal and it's, there's conviction and like ownership in that, your tone is different. Your body language is different. So, you know, when I'm talking with loan officers and realtors that are going through this process, I always am like, Hey, do you have children? Like do you have grandchildren? Maybe you don't have kids. Do you have a neighbor? Do you have somebody that you care about in this bracket? Okay. When you turn on your camera to record, I want you to picture them on the other side. What would you tell them that you wish you had known? Or you know, having those kinds of things, I think builds just a layer of trust of doing all of that. Yeah. And I think we can tend to be, like, we try to be efficient with our time. And I know I've really struggled with this. But one of the lessons that I learned earlier as a social worker was to put down the questions that are, you know, like put down, I mean, I had a physical, like, checklist. I had to go through and it was, you know, he's clipped boards and stuff. And I would set that aside and I realized when I did that and I turned towards my client and didn't have a desk in front of me and just started a conversation that I would end up getting through those appointments so much more efficiently. I had better outcomes, like everything went way, way better. And so, you know, applying that to the mortgage industry, when you are having conversations with people and connecting, building empathy and trust, that goes a really long way and you end up not only having better conversions, but you also are more efficient with meetings down the road because they already trust you. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't feel, I mean, the person on the receiving end doesn't feel like there's an agenda, right? It's not like checking down, but it's like, hey, I really feel like you took time to like hear me see me and help me. So another data point, excuse me, another data point is that 37% said that they were avoiding thinking about home ownership. Not, you know, I can't afford it or I'm not ready. Like they're just, they've like pushed it out of their brain. So talk to me about that. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's, it's that overwhelm. So I think, you know, whenever you think about the bar were today or the next gen consumer, they are going to look at information online because they are wanting to get information. They don't trust talking to a professional yet, but then they get overwhelmed. And they, what happens with overwhelm is that they again, kind of shut down. And they're like, I'm going to avoid thinking about this. And I can't tell you how many people I talk to that have not bought a home yet because they just are worried that they are, you know, that this isn't the right thing for them. They're worried that they're going to make a wrong step. And so they just avoid looking at it. And that avoidance, I do think is a real barrier to entry for a lot of people. And if we could improve, like, just turn that knob down just a little bit, that feeling of overwhelm and then create a softer entry into conversation around home ownership. I wonder how many people would actually enter the market today, not even looking at rates or anything like that. It just, we need to create a softer path to entry. Yeah, completely, because there's just, there's so much noise. I'd be curious, do you ever personally go on to Reddit? Like, have you ever gone, spent any time down to rabbit trail and rabbit Reddit? Do you gain some research for, like, voice to the voice of the customer? Yes, I've done a lot of that and actually using notebook LM, chativity and notebook LM to pull in a lot of Reddit threads looking at voice of customer. So yeah, it's, I look at that typically and before AI on my own, but before going into the survey question development for these action home buyer reports. Yeah, it's pretty fascinating, too. I like to do that every once in a while, you know, just go in on to Reddit and I'll type in, you know, for some home buyer, there's different, you know, Reddit threads that you can follow. And it's really wild because you're getting unsolicited advice, like information, like people, there's just a treasure trove. So if you're listening and you're a loan officer, Reddit is free, but you can go online and literally just type in keywords, you could type in your state, you could type in, you know, first in home buyer, what have you? I would encourage you guys to spend some time go look at what actually, like real people are saying, you'll learn really quickly the fear and not just the stat behind it as Kristen sharing, but like what are some of those things that are keeping them up at night? Because if you're wanting to create content to speak to that, that's like my, my favorite go to is to go find, to go, go find a good Reddit thread. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I was just going to look for what I found in this years, but a lot of people were looking for mortgage readiness, advice, home buying financials, home ownership strategy, but there's just so much conversation around the, like people's experiences and I do think hearing from the consumer about their experience or fears can be really valuable. Well, and another thing that I've done is almost like secret shopped, right? Because they have really strict rules on like, you know, you can't solicit and whatnot, but I wanted to see what kind of advice I would get. So I actually played a persona and was like, hey, I'm getting ready to think about buying my first home and I'm so overwhelmed and I just kind of built this fictitious persona and I put it out there and I was so amazed at the wide range of advice that I got and how conflicting it was. And so it was really cool to kind of be like, hey, what is a persona and then what kind of advice would I get and why? And then you can start engaging with them. That's really helpful. Can you tell me more? And now you're actually one to one and one to many unpacking more data. And I did that right before or right, yeah, when your report came out, because you can't just come in and say, I'm doing research. So I just played a persona and it worked beautifully. That's a really great idea. And I think, you know, you can get ideas for videos from Reddit questions or people's input and say, hey, a lot of people think this. I mean, this is a direct quote from someone and here's how I would respond to that. You know, and I think people, you know, back to the storytelling, people really respond well to scenarios and storytelling and your advice and input around specific examples. Yeah. Yeah, go to an Reddit, get an idea and then pair it with what's your advice or what's a story or maybe find, you know, hey, I had a client that, you know, or I went on to Reddit and I read this and I had a client that walked through this, here's how we worked through this. So now you're tying a fear and a real story that also helps build trust because you're sharing story of how you helped. So there's Reddit, Reddit's a gold mine. Okay. I'm just digging through a couple of these stats because the report was loaded and so for everybody that's listening, we're obviously not going to even get through a fraction of the report, but I will tell you one, it's designed beautifully. And you know, Kristen, I just have to give you props. You talk a lot about overwhelm and so much data. You even took that feedback into your report and the way that you laid out your report from the, the graphics and the minimalism, even visually just reading the report, you play to that so beautifully. So massive kudos for you because I read it in the car. Oh my gosh. Thank you. This is beautiful design work. I'm a big fan of design. But that was one of the first things that I noticed was that it felt very easy to digest the information. Well, that means a lot. And also that was so when I finished the report, I was like, man, this is doing the same thing that I am kind of complaining about of like I really worried about people feeling overwhelmed because there is so much information in there. And I am trying to like for at least for our ambassadors, we're creating different presentations that they can take a portion of the report and deliver a presentation for, you know, real estate groups or whatever, but on trust or on AI and technology and, but I, yeah, I do think there's a lot in the report and tried to share a story around it somewhere that came through for you, but definitely it takes some time to kind of consume it. Yeah. Well, it's laid out really well. So for everybody listening, we are going to put all of the links in the show notes. And for anybody that like loves to deep dive into data, you can go back because they also share all of the previous years. So if you're like me, I took all of the previous years reports. I threw it into notebook LM as I was prepping for our call and I was like, okay, well, let's look at some of the trends starting in 2020 all the way through, you know, and was able to just get some really good, you know, insights from that. So if you're listening, make sure you check out the show notes. And then let's, let's touch base really quick on first one, make you because obviously this is, you know, started as a passion project, but now it is your full time mission. And you started this in in partnership with Dave Savage and in Todd books band. Like can you talk just about the gap? Like what is the mission for home first to make you and what are you guys actually solving? Yeah. So our mission is to make homeownership education more accessible for the next generation. And our, we do that through equipping loan officers and real estate agents to be the education leaders and their communities. So right now we have, we have kind of three pillars around this strategy. Education is the research. So this research has come under the first home IQ umbrella and everything we have created really stems out of that. And then secondly is the education. We have an ambassador program that we have 150 loan officers and some real estate agents across the country who are delivering education in their communities, whether it be webinars or workshops or social media content, but we give them playbooks and information and kind of a program around that. And then the last pillar is advocacy and that's our newest pillar as of this year. But we really believe that being involved legislatively either locally or nationally is a way to build trust and I think overall it's about closing the education gap, but it's also about closing this trust gap. So we have 50 plus loan officers that are coming from around the country to DC to advocate on the hill and then we'll be helping people get engaged locally across across the country throughout the year as well. That's really cool and that is, yeah, that is a new thing that you guys are doing. Why I personally love that is because you guys are, I mean, you're not just talking about the problem, but you're like mobilizing. And you're helping loan officers who see the real problem because they're the ones in the trenches every single day, but let's be honest, like we might see the problem, but we don't really know how to solve for even at a policy level. So you're partnering with the MBA, is that right? Yeah, yeah, we partner with the Mortgage Banker Association to bring loan officers to their national advocacy conference and then we'll also partner with them beyond that to help loan officers get engaged with their Mortgage Action Alliance and other local MBA groups too. That's so cool because yeah, yeah, I mean, you're giving them the resources, you're giving them the research and the tools on here is how you can partner at the state and the, you know, even the local level with us. So that's really cool. So somebody is listening and obviously I would encourage you, please go check out First Home IQ, what they're doing, but what would be the best way that they could get involved to learn more and to see if it's a good fit? Yeah, so I would love for anyone that's interested in learning about the impact we're creating and the resources we have to go to one of our workshops. We do them every Monday, 10 a.m. Pacific, at First Home IQ dot com slash workshop, you can register for that. And we really try to make that that's the first step to becoming an ambassador as well, but we talk about, you know, crafting your wise statement and we share the free resources that we do have around the research and some of the education. We have some games you can use in classrooms and all of that, but then, and then if you are interested in becoming an ambassador, then there's a next step from there, but that would be a really great place to start getting engaged and just kind of learn some more about First Home IQ. Well, obviously I have a soft spot for you guys because it's a huge, what you guys are doing isn't just to feel good, but like you're actually on a silver platter handing the ambassadors every tool that they need to help combat this. I mean, you guys have made it so easy from the content that you create from the classes and the webinars. I mean, you have so many resources that you have curated and you guys, I'm not talking just like chat, GPT wrote all these resources. This is like over a decade of professional research that Chris and the team have put into this. And you know, you also have a lot of people in the industry that have helped kind of sponsor some of the content, right? Yeah, yeah, we have a really great board and and loan officers who helped build the program. As you know, I mean, we started with 20 people who said they would help build the program basically. And so everything that we've created has been based off of someone saying, this is going to be helpful for my business. This is how I can have better impact. And so it's really been an industry wide effort. And that is the idea that we are coming together as an industry to solve for the financial literacy crisis. And of course, Katie, you have been a huge part of that I cannot, we would not be here without your help. You created so many of the fantastic resources that we have. So it's yeah, it's just you are very much present in the in the organization. Well, it's a great one. I mean, it was just an easy mission. It was an easy yes for me back then and it's still an easy yes. I mean, we all know we all see the problem. And I think, you know, no problem and get solved by one person. It gets solved by all of us saying yes, we can play a part of that. So for you listening, what does that look like? That's you and your local level. Do you have a middle school or a high school that you could go teach a class at? Maybe you're involved in your church or somewhere in your community. How can you figure out a place where you can start raising your voice and giving back? And then as Kristen was saying, you know, go join one of their calls. You'll learn a lot about what they're doing. And don't take my advice for it. Go see, like the resources you guys, one of the biggest problems I think people have is, I don't know what to say. I don't know what to post on social media. I don't know what email to send. They solve this, right? That you guys literally create resources for the ambassadors. So, so with that, go learn about first home a kill. And for the next gen home buyer report, what is the best way that they can get those resources? So you can go to nextgenhomebuyer.com and access all of the past reports, including the most recent 2026 annual reports. That will also be on our website at firsthome IQ.com. But we're in transition on that website. That's on homebuyer.com. But yes, so go to nextgenhomebuyerreport.com. And then you guys, this would be a great topic that you could host a lunch and learn. Jeff has classes and has done for you class materials too. I know Jeff has actually been a huge partner with first home IQ as well. So go teach a lunch and learn class with your agents, get involved, and go learn about first home IQ. So Kristen, thank you so much for being on the show. This was just selfishly, this was really fun. But I think the report is so valuable and I hope everybody listening goes and downloads it and does something with it. Yes, this is so much fun. And also, yeah, Jeff has some resources in first home IQ that he's shared with, like he said, the lunch and learns and referral partner relationships. So definitely check that out. But thank you so much, Katie.