Ep #113: Building an $80 Million Dollar, 100% Referral Business

In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with real estate agents is essential for success. However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge. With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections. Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Coghill is a must-read. Chris has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals. And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business. To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy of the case study today. You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too. Don't miss out. Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Mortgage Marketing Radio, brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute, your number one source for truth in mortgage marketing. Hey listeners, Jeff Simphur, thanks for tuning into another episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast. I appreciate you for tuning in. If you're a first-time listener, welcome, appreciate you being here. And if you've been with us for a while, welcome back and appreciate you tuning back in consistently. And if you wouldn't mind if you're getting value from these episodes, hey, we'd love you sharing a little bit of love on the internet. A little review out there on iTunes, stick here wherever you're listening to this. That helps us reach more people and make a difference in more people's lives. So appreciate that. Number one, number two, we've got to make sure to remind you guys if any of you listening right now want to go to the next level in your career, want to get more agent referrals and relationships, want to build your brand, personal brand on social media online with video marketing, Facebook ads and the like. Be sure and check out the local happenings we've got for our members at our Mortgage Marketing.pro membership. Lots of good stories happening over there as a matter of fact, let me pull up on real quick foyer right here. One of the things we do at the Mortgage Marketing Pro community is that we help originators reach maximum agents in minimum time and drive engagement and referrals from real estate agents. And we do that by relying on what is proven to be the most efficient, effective, quickest way to do that. That is by teaching agents to fish, pouring value into agents, educating them, help them grow their business. How do we do that teaching agent classes? One of our members, who's one of the top loan officers, top producing loan officers with Nova home loans in Colorado, Michelle Farman auto, what's up? She just did a class yesterday, she had 12 agents show up, quality realtors, not newbies. And Michelle points out on our Facebook group here that she barely even marketed it, she had like a weak lead time of marketing. So the turnaround, the attendance on that was strong, 15 reservations, 12 showed up, 12 out of 15, okay, the content was disrupted by surviving the digital real estate shift. The feedback is they love the content and got, she's already set some follow up appointments on the books and they inquired, requested to be invited to future classes. She's doing it again in two weeks and I guarantee she'll have higher attendance and by then we'll have some stories of how many loans she's gotten referred by then. So if you want to learn more about that kind of stuff, go check it out at mortgagemarketing.pro. Okay, next we want to give a quick shout out to the industry syndicate, I'm a proud member of the industry syndicate and if you like content here and you're looking for more good content, loan officer, realtor content, podcasts, Alexa, flash briefings, Facebook live shows, YouTube channel shows, you name it, you can find all that and more under one single roof at the industry syndicate, check them out at industry syndicate.com, real estate's first media network. Okay, let's get into my special guest this week. I am bringing to you Mr. Rob Wishnick VP of mortgage lending out of Philly, go dirty birds Philly. And we are talking about Rob's story, how he went in just four years, took his production from 12 million to 80 million, 243 loans in 2018 for 80 million in fundings. Perhaps more significantly folks was the fact he was able to go is actually doubled this business in one year in one year. So we're going to unpack how he does that. He gets 100% of his businesses referral 95% of his purchase business from real estate agents. He has about two to three dozen core agents that are on his a list team that consistently send them almost 100% of their business if they can control that. So we're going to unpack this. We're going to talk about how what really changed Rob's business was how he forced himself to get outside of his comfort zone. And he had a shift in mindset and looking at himself and how he identified himself as a mortgage professional. You'll hear him talk about that. You'll hear him talk about some of the daily activities he does and what he's doing to consistently grow his brand and is he worried about disruptors like Zelo and Quicken. Is he concerned? He'll hear his story and more. So without further ado, let's get into this week's show. Hey Rob, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me. You bet, man. I appreciate you being here from Philly, the city of brotherly love, isn't it? Right. Are you feeling the brotherly love out there? Yeah. Right. So I just came along so we're all ready for baseball season now. So yeah. So yeah. Yeah, man. Do you got tickets or what? I just pick up as needed. No. No season tickets. Yeah. What was there's a whole story there, right? I'm not in with the Dodgers, right? He went to Philly because of the taxes partly. There were about three or four cities I think he was thinking about and at the end of the day, I think he was looking to finish his career in a city and we give him that contract. So give him the best offer. What's that contract worth? 330. 330 million for 13 years. We're in the wrong business, right? Yeah, right. I should have stuck with Little League. I doubt I'd be anywhere close to that. All right, man. Let's get into it. Because I know you're busy. So quick background intro. For the listeners, tell us who is Rob. What does he do? Why does he love doing loans? Rob Wishnick, guaranteed rate. I got in this business 16 years ago, four years ago, came to guaranteed rate and that's where the business really took off. Learned the business the right way, had some great people to teach me the business, got came in knowing absolutely zero and I just learned the business the right way, learned about processing and learning how to put the file together, understand guidelines where they were coming from so that I could thoroughly explain it to a client. And then I got to a point in my business where it was sort of getting stale and I was getting a little bored and wasn't sure what the next step was with that first company for 12 years and then found GR. And that's where it really took off, just more resources, processing system that allowed me to go out and go look for business, gave me a free meal to get out of the office and that was the start to being a game changer and then something in me just sparked as it started to get busier. It was easier for me to have more confidence go out and teach what we do best. And it just continues to take off, make myself uncomfortable every day, get myself into doors that I probably wouldn't have had a shop before but business, business and you start to do more business and more people want to talk to you. So that's really where it took off. All right, so there's a few things I want to unpack in there. Let's first handle the numbers for those listening, 2018 units in volume. 243 units were 80.7 in volume, 80.7 million in volume. Right, okay. Congratulations, by the way, that's a hell of a lot of units. What does your team look like, who's helping you manage all that? Yeah, so my team is, I'm really my service I built around trying to make an optimal experience for the borrower. So I'm leaner on the marketing side. I let a lot of guaranteed rich resources take that out over for me. So my team is two processors, someone then to start the file and start chasing conditions in the very beginning. And then I have a sales support who is my right hand and I really helps getting a lot of estimates out for me working up some of the deals so that if I'm on the road and so a client needs to prepare for real quickly, needs some numbers to wrap them really quickly so that they don't want to make an offer, he's helping with that information, watching the pipeline, making sure that's flowing again, if I'm away from my desk, so that there's somebody behind the scene always watching the pipeline. Okay, those two processors, are they dedicated only to you? No, no, no, no, so we have a two processor system. One basically takes the file from application to commitment lighter and the second takes from commitment to closing. So the first in line can handle more deals. So I share that first with number one officer and then the second is dedicated to me. All right, cool. Thank you. That's, you know, whenever loan officers listen, they'd love to know that details about wait a minute, he's got two full time processors. The wonder he's doing 243 units, that's what you hear Rob, we're here to dispel that that's not why that is. Okay, very good stuff. Now, so you know that, you know, kind of the focus I want to have for this conversation is the journey from 12 million to 80 million because you did that in, as you shared, four short years. And that is like a big jump. I'm trying to do the math on that four years, ten. So what was that like a 20 million lift a year, maybe a little bit less than that? Over four years. So, yeah, first year one from about 12 14 to 30 million, then the second year, the first year. My first year, yeah, yeah, was from 12 or 14, I can't remember the year when I ended, but when it first year, I was 30, then I went to 56, 64, and then 80. Wow. Okay. So you set a couple of things in your intro, which was, you know, there was a point in your career where you're like, hey, maybe it's, it's like time to make a change. Now, do you want to talk about, because, you know, you've referenced it a couple of times, guaranteed rate and some of the resources they have that free you up to be able to go originate, which is like your main job. But I don't want to overlook the fact that you said something switched in you. And the reason why I don't want to overlook that is because I think that is oftentimes the differentiator between somebody who doubles their business any year or not. So can you just maybe briefly unpack if you look back at that point, right? Here at 12, 14 million, whatever you're deciding to make a career change or shift companies, simultaneously something switched in you, man. What was that? Yeah. So I was getting pretty bored of, you know, writing another application. It was just the same Monday and half over and over, and then the knowing that I was, you know, having my hand in chasing a lot of documents, you know, helping with the, helping the processors get to the finish line. It was just, it was every loan became a heavy, heavy task. So when that was freed up from me, it allowed me more time to really go out and sell. So I saw it as an opportunity. I've always been an obiturant part from the time I was 12 years old. And I saw it. I've always had my hand in a number of things and nothing, nothing full time except for being a loan officer, but just always different interests. And when I made the move that you are because it had gotten to a point where I was getting pretty bored and there was getting that the job was getting pretty stale for me. I said, I'm freeing up everything else. I'm making one real run at this to be caught, you know, to really boost my volume and make this a career because I didn't even state as a career as more to job. And you know, it was my own business, but it was becoming a job and that just excitement was gone. So, earning a G.R. getting rid of all those other interests and really just making this, this was the business. You went all in. It really helped my mentality and boosting everything. So am I hearing then you had some other distractions because of your entrepreneurial nature that was stealing away from your attention? Yep, absolutely. And you know, we talked to, you know, you're working with realtors and you're talking to your clients and everyone has their own things going on and it's interesting and it's interesting to hear people's stories and what they're involved in and especially the real estate community in Philadelphia where we've gone through this boom too and people are involved in all sorts of development projects and you name it and you know, it's hard not to get interested in that. But you know, the best thing for me in my career was just that tunnel vision. So focus on the loan. Yeah, so that's awesome. And you kind of had like a light switched on or whatever and you're like, okay, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to go all in. I like that. What any couple of highlights though, like you talked about a mentor who helped you kind of get started in the business, is there anything you can highlight that when you made that switch, you did noticeably differently as compared to before in terms of maybe your daily activities or your disciplines or things like that? Sure. So, again, going back to that, making myself uncomfortable, you know, by nature, part of me, even though I am a salesperson, I think my initial instinct is to just want to stay at my computer and handle the pipeline and email and talk, but just getting out more, getting out in front of agents, getting out in front of consumer events, so making myself, forcing myself to do that more, really paid off. And you realize, hey, you know, there's people don't want to be in this alone, people don't want to sit in front of their computer all day to get people out, sometimes it's a pressure for them, especially real estate agents, you know, depending on what type of environment they're in, a lot of them are on their own islands and, you know, if you can help support them and give them a nice environment to be working from, you know, you can invite them out to coffee, lunch, whatever, they're more than willing to be receptive to that. So, what are some of the things that you do or did that get where outside of your comfort zone? Sure. Face-to-face consumer meetings, I wasn't doing that all that often, so I started doing that a bit more, asking for business, you know, but delicately, and in my own way, asking for business. From agents? From agents? Exactly. Why aren't we working together? What can I do differently? What can I do to help? You know, but beyond the basic pitch, you know, I try so hard in my business to just not be like others, you know, like what I see as other law officers, I don't want to be the nag. I don't want to be the thorn in an agent's side that's just another when they're asking for business. You know, I try to bring my own little value proposition to the speaker that everyone does, so, you know, asking for business is a big thing, so it's, you know, but delicately doing that. Well, all right. So, you try to bring your own value proposition, right? We hear that term thrown around a lot, I'd be interested to learn what is your value proposition, perhaps, how you articulate that to realtors. Sure. So, the experience plays a lot into it. This is my career, first and foremost. I'm in this to, you know, make sure that, you know, at the end of the day, you're going to get your commission. Mr. Mrs. Reiler, you know, that's important where you gave us that referral. We're going to make you shine, but really what my team, what I try to really preach with my team and what goes out to clients is trust and transparency. At the end of the day, you know, we saw a lot of dirty things in this business between when I started 2003 and 2010, and, you know, so I know when a client comes to me that they are going to get that trust, they're going to get that transparency, but we promise in the beginning is what they're going to wind up with, they're not going to have to worry about any sort of thing switch or knowing that there's not a professional working with them at all times. So it's that preaching that trust and transparency, I never, ever, ever will get at the closing table or somebody will ever say that what they got at the table is not exactly what they are promised. So do you have like any type of a guarantee that you actually state, right, that the closing cost will match the estimate or anything like that? So no, you know, what I let it tell people is you're working with a local lending expert, you know, I think the word guarantee is really thrown around way too loosely these days. I've never felt the need to put that on paper or that pay here is the closing cost guarantee or whatever because at the end of the day, we're going to make things right, you know, we don't even have the, obviously, ability to change fees or anything like that, like, you know, it's not even an option, but, you know, it's one of the things I actually, as weird as it sounds like one thing that I actually do like doing is I do like working up estimates for clients. So like, what I'll tell people when I send them off to the payroll is shoot me an address. You see something, you're out with your realtor, you see something that you like, shoot me an address from there, I can show you what everything's all about, like three, four different scenarios. You know, we do on 20% done, 10% done, whatever with monthly PMI without, you know, so it's actually sort of like that. We've got some cool systems that you are that really allows to do that pretty quickly and it's a nice, clean format that we've always put out with these estimates. So it's very easy for consumers to understand. Yeah, that's an interesting thing to highlight there is that you, it seems to be if I'm hearing this correctly, that you're when possible, you're always giving people more than one loan option to choose from, like three. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. In our market, 30 are fixed this thing. I mean, most people don't have, as I said, they need a, they need a, they need a very approval and you know what they're asking for, they're asking for 30 effects, you know, but, but if, you know, you talk, as you talk to them and you get to know their situation better, it's this only a short-term property for you and are you, like, delivering the short-term though, should we be talking, adjustable rate should be talking, if it's in your fixed, one of your fixed, so, you know, for the most part in our market, fixed rate is king and 30 year fixed is the primary amount of the business. I mean, literally more than, more than 95% of the loans we're doing, I'm doing actually, so it's, it doesn't really come up with too many other programs otherwise, but we throw the options out there if they want to hear them. Well, yeah, so I want to unpack that a little bit because, you know, I know that, you know, like you said, entrepreneur, sales professional, all that kind of stuff, kind of a best practice in sales is to allow the consumer to have a choice. Is that a standard practice for you to like always show up to three options and then that helps the customer kind of be educated and position you as a trusted advisor? Sure. So, at the very onset, I'm trying to get two numbers from the client. How much do you want to use for this transaction? You know, it doesn't fill it up because the costs are pretty steep. So how much do you want to use for this transaction and there's no wrong answer? And number one is that and then number two is what, where is that monthly payment comfort level? Everything but utilities, give me a sense of how much you're looking to spend and based on those two numbers, I'm going to help you find a range that you should be looking in. And then if you use me as a sense, all right, should we be looking for a seller assist in the deal or should we be looking for pushing more towards the down payment and the assist for closing costs and things like that. So those two numbers from there, I can run with a lot and show them options. Right. Right. So many people come to you and they think that the down payment is everything and that they can roll closing costs into a purchase and it's like, well, that's not that simple and we got to dedicate a decent amount, you know, it's over typically over 5% for closing costs in Philadelphia. So it's pretty substantial amount. So where's that money coming from and are you using all of your savings to get in? Is that a wise move or are we saving for any day fund here? So just getting to know that and it really doesn't take long taking a couple of extra minutes of the client. You can really find out so much and what their needs really are and then you go with the rest. So, you know, we're not advisors, so to speak, but it builds that trust. So you are the first point of contact then for somebody inquiring about a loan. Correct. And most of those conversations are over the phone versus in person or is it a mix? Yeah, usually phone. We have a great digital mortgage. So more and more, I try and push people towards that. That is a huge piece of my business like, hey, take this 10 minutes. This is just the fact finding mission. You could put any number you want and they put a million dollars, you could $50,000. It really doesn't matter. But this is the fact finding mission for us. It's going to tell us your income, going to show us your credit, what's going on with that ratio. And from there, we're going to have a conversation and get to those two numbers. But at the very onset, it's like start thinking about these two numbers. Start thinking about that cash to close that you want to use and start thinking about that monthly payment. And from there, then we're going to guide you to that range. So that obviously that initial conversation is kind of short because you want to get the data and push them off to the app. Then on that follow up conversation, on average, how long are those conversations with people? Yeah, really 10, 15 minutes, as long as people need, but really 10, 15 minutes, once we have the information, 10, 15 minutes is usually all we need. So there's a lot of talk, you know, I guess it's all about your style and the different pox to the country are different and type of buyer. There's a lot of talk about, like, you know, the goals and the dreams and the wants conversations with people when they're buying a home and spending, you know, going deep if you can with people to kind of build that fence around it, right? Are you consciously trying to do that? Or could you give me a little bit of insights of to what your goal is during that longer conversation? Sure. So it's all about meeting their needs. So do you want to be a housewife or do you want that cushion? And most people, but when you talk to them, they're going to be a little more conservative off the bat. And that's fine because that's a starting point. Like, here's the range, based on the number you gave me, here's the range that I think we should be looking at. I think you should be looking at it. Are you looking at a property with a tax of them and they're not, you know, what areas you're looking at, so it gives me a sense of where where I should be at the estimating taxes, which is obviously the number we don't have at that point, but we have a sense of these are the way they're looking. And from there, it's like, here's the range I think is going to be within your comfort zone. And let's talk to your agent, let's get you started with a search for up to set amount. And then if you think you're, as you start to see places, if you think that you're not finding something in that range and you think you're willing to sacrifice a little bit either on the monthly or maybe putting a little more cash into it, then then we bump up the amount. And I really will ever give a pre-approval just for a maximum amount. It's one of my least favorite requests that I get in the business because why lay those cards out to a seller, first of all? And then why put yourself in an uncomfortable position, you know, for some reason you've decided to put an offer and you didn't ask me for the numbers beforehand. And now all of a sudden, you got yourself into this contract and you're petrified of the monthly payment. Why didn't we have this conversation before? So it's like, come back to me. I'm like, I don't want to give you a pre-approval. Yes, you're pre-approval. Congratulations. But I don't want to give you a lot of, yeah, once you see something that you think you may want to make an offer on, send me an address, let me run some numbers for you, make sure you're comfortable, and then we'll fire off the pre-approval letter in there. Okay. I wrote down from our last chat that if this is correct, 100% of your business is referral. Yeah, 100%. Yep. Exactly. And that's mostly from agents. Yep. Yeah, agents and a business network that I've built over the years, but I do like, it's almost all agents. I'm thinking of the conversation of rate shoppers, right, and the context of you getting most 100% of your business as a referral from real estate agents, you know, one, you assume that there's the implied trust that comes with that referral so that the shopping perhaps would be reduced. But I'm curious what you're seeing or to what degree are you experiencing, right, rate shopping, for example. Sure. We're in a major market. There's banks at every corner of the city, so it comes up a lot. And that's where you have to, you know, experience this key. What we do here in Billy and our branch, I mean, the amount of business that we do out of our branch is huge. We've made ourselves the household name in Billy as a trusted lender. And so that's a huge piece, you know, you're maximizing your chances getting to the closing table. Those horror stories you hear about it closing from your friends and family that they've made horrendous experiences like closing, flowing up things like that. We just don't let that happen. We do a lot of homework up front. We, there's so many pieces to the machine, there's many kinds of machine that we are working on and making sure everything is moving through the system as it should, that your commitments are being met. You're, you know, the closing time, we're not late on anything. And the, the rate shopping, you know, you can't avoid it with all the online advertising today. I mean, once you type the word mortgage into Google, there's off to the races that you're going to come up on every single, every website you go to now and ads going to pop up with disgustingly low rates. And it's like, well, there's a lot of fine print. We're not a one size fits all business. And do you want to get into like a fast-talking phone salesman or do you want somebody that's going to walk you through this process and you're going to have someone on my team and me, my cell phone, text me, call me any time. I really, you know, it's 24 or 7 and you're going to have somebody at all time holding your hand here. So you don't often have this situation where people don't recognize your company's brand? Oh, no we do. Yeah, we do. I mean, it's, again, we're in a major metropolitan area. So we're surrounded by the big banks. Who's your highest competitor there in Philly, I'm curious. It's the in-house lenders, you know, that maybe where the first point of contact, the first point of contact for the consumer because they were sold on convenience. But it's a different mentality. You know, when you have someone that is literally just being, they know certain deals are going to wind up on their desk at the end of every day and somebody that has to fight for it, it's a different mentality. So, you know, I've got to earn the trust on every single deal with the agent who's sending me that referral. Well, all right, that's good, by the way, thank you for sharing that. And, you know, we could keep going deeper on your whole consumer conversation strategy and you're welcome to throw in anything else you want. But what I'd like to do perhaps is pivot then to this discussion around 100% of your business is coming from referral. So there's two directions to talk about there. Number one, I'd love to learn about, you know, how you've built such a reliable, loyal dare I say, right, group of real estate agents and how many A-player agents are on your bus right now? Yes. So, I probably, I'd say agents that I get every single one of their leads that I am truly their preferred one, they're, it's probably about two and a half to three dozen. Yeah. And then the next, let's say, two, three dozen, I'm one of their two or three preferred one. And then after that, you know, we'll get to save deals and we'll get the one off so that the business referral from my business network, things like that. Dude, I mean, hold on, pause, stop the presses. I mean, two dozen, let's just say, 24 realtors who are like, fall on the sword loyal to you whenever they can possibly direct the deal to you, they're not doing the three card thing. Ideally not, you know, they may have their sources, but at the end of the day, they're going to say, look, you can shut up around, but this is, yeah, it's your absolute right to shop around, but at the end of the day, this is the guy you're going to be working with. He's the guy that you can trust. He's not going to be us, you know, he's going to get you to the table and he's going to get you to graduate. All right. So, and how do you get to that level with an agent? Yeah. It's time and time again. You got to deliver. I mean, at the end of the day, it is about delivering, you know, you really have to be sharp. Yeah. The toughest thing that I've had as I've been growing is trying to step out of the business a little bit more to business develop while maintaining the same service. And it is hard, but you know, it is, it is a daily task at the end of the day. I am hitting inbox zero, whether it's just to follow up with somebody and say, hey, I saw your message. Let me get back to you tomorrow. Let me work on something for you, but it's, you know, you got to be there with the responses. You have to be there with, with the right answers. And it's okay to sometimes not have the answer, but you're going to get the answer. But you have to always deliver and at the end of the day, that's real, sir. This is their livelihood, too. You have to make them look good. You have to appreciate that this, they are your business partner and the ones that truly treat me as a business partner, you know, that's where it's, it's invaluable. We're going to do everything. We're going to, we're going to be, we're backwards to make sure that their client is happy and that they're going to say something to the realtor that said, hey, thanks for affordable. It has to rob and guarantee rate, you know, you really helped us. And thank you for the, sir. Okay. All right. So we're going to get a little bit more tactical for those listening that, you know, hear that figure because it's quite mind blowing to me as well. I mean, I didn't have that many, you know, I'm similar to you about 70, 80 percent of what my business was referral from real estate agents. But it's changed, you know, and there is this kind of psychology of sometimes I've liked the three card of the double apping. Okay. So what I wanted to get this question out of the way because it's just coming back in my head. I have to do it. How many prequel or loan app, right, calls are you taking on average a day? Two to three. Two to three. All right. So do you have a mentality of like a loan a day or something like that? No. That was the goal was like to write last year was to try to get to one loan for every business day close. Now I'm trying to make it one loan per calendar day. So, you know, now we're entering crazy seasons in January February, you know, it's tough to not hit the panic button and be like, why am I not getting all these late days? It's January, you know, it's supposed to be slow, but we try to make it not so seasonally more. Okay. Just just jump back on to the agent thing. I should get a get that out of my brain. All right. So for the agents, do you make yourself available 24, seven, you know, what are the parameters you set on those agent relationships in terms of that? Yes. So probably don't take my advice on this, but it's, it's a, this is for me on all, you know, it is, I definitely have my times where I shut off. They're not set times, but my phone is always on and I have a habit of looking at it. So if I can't handle something, I'm trying to get my team to notice, like I said, my, my assistant, he's on the opposite. So we, the opposite, we really make sure that they're working normal hours because we've have to keep them sane for sure. The, my team member that helps with the sales cycle, he's on every email so he sees everything that's coming in and between us for delegating. If I need to be out for a couple hours, he's monitoring that stuff a little bit more. But you know, it's, I can't say I'm not looking at it seven days a week. No, I get it. I mean, but do you also kind of like, if you're out at the, you know, the family barbecue or picnic or in the movie, I mean, you stepping out? Yeah. Trying to be more mindful with that. Absolutely. Are you married? No. I definitely have hard downtime and I have my family kind of certain, no doubt about that. But like after nine, you won't take all, you'll take somebody back, whatever. Exactly. But that's where again, our digital mortgage helps so much, like, hey, I'm not at my laptop right now. I can't help you write this second. Can you spend 10 minutes online, build this out as messy can? Let me, once I get a chance, I'm going to review it for you. Okay. Make it a 24-7 business by having, no, it's just like it's fantastic and then you're still going to review everything, you know? Yeah. So I don't know. There's two roads you go, right? One is just like, hey, man, come at me. I'm all, I'm all in. I'm available 24-7 and then there's the, you know, people who are like, you know, building some communication expectations around that with their agents as they bump up against that. Like, if you have an agent, it's like, hey, man, I texted you at nine o'clock, 10 o'clock because you didn't respond and it's like, hey, you know what, let's build some expectations here around. Right. Right. So I try to lay it out that like, hey, if you need, if it's an emergency and it's nine o'clock at night and you need to get in the office tonight, let me know. Just let me know the urgency because if it can wait till the morning, like, let's just point until the morning, you know, it's, but, you know, if it, but if it isn't on godly hour and it's, it's necessary, you have to get this offer in, you have against three other offers and as they come in tonight, just text me, running out and we'll make sure it happens for you. All right. Then there's two, two last things, I guess, areas I want to talk about is one, how do you market and promote yourself to agents because you get sounds like a big database of agents if you will, right? Even your inner circle is two to three dozen, like you said. How did you, what's some best practices on how you're getting in front of those agents to get them to choose you? Sure. So reputation, honestly, some of the eights for those initial core dozen put me in touch with the next dozen. You know, it's, if you do a good job for someone, they become, you know, they become your door, so to speak. Yeah. But let's hold on here. Here's, see, see a lot, a lot of top producers tend to gloss over that because that doesn't happen automatically. I'm sure you were proactive about it in asking agents after you close a transaction, hey, who do you, who else do you know, other agents that are looking for a good lender? Right. And to be honest, you get to a point where you don't even have to ask that. They, you become friends with them, you know, the business partners, they become friends. This is the referral part of the business, you know, it's, you want to do business with people you get along with, you want to do business with people that you respect. And if you do a good job for them, they want to see succeed, just like anybody else, you know, people that, that like you want you to succeed and they want to be your billboard without asking. And, you know, so, so yeah, there's no, there's an appropriate time and, and I had, in my first 10 years in the business, I really had an issue with that. I mean, it's because I didn't want to step on the toes. If I was, let's say, the preferred agent for someone and then you asked for business for somebody in that office, are they going to be threatened by that? And some agents who up would be threatened by that. So it's, there's a right time and a place. And then, but again, the agents that really want you to succeed and want their lenders to be like the, the expert here in the transaction and the, and the quarterback in the transaction, they're happy to throw your name out. Do you do things today on a weekly or monthly basis that put you in front of agents that could be something like classes or the, you know, the board of realtor events or happy hours and stuff like that? Yeah, so I'm trying to get out, you know, most, most meetings are over coffee, lunch, happy hour just with an agent or maybe invite a couple of agents out. I'll throw a couple of events a year. My client appreciation events are not really geared towards my, my true clients, the borrowers. They're more geared towards like, towards realtor and, and if, and that was another thing. So like, to realtor's want to just be in a room with all real estate agents. Like, is that fun for them? But, you know, Missouri lost company and every time I'm in a room with, it was several mortgage people. So I wind up gravitating towards, and you just share war stories and things like that. So it's, the feedback I always get when I have events is that it was a great time and it was great to catch up with some of their peers and, it was a fun thing itself. So I try to have some, some events like that. How often do you do those? I try quarterly. I'm one quarterly. Should I be doing more monthly? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, how many, how many agents attend those on average? Every quarter? Usually about 2000. Okay. All right. Nice. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm a little bit with my business contacts to, so that it's not just real estate agents in the room that there's some other people for them to meet. So I like to keep it a little bit fresh and have people network. So. And so you just host that at some kind of local bar restaurant, whatever. Are you paying the whole thing or doing the drink, drink tickets thing or what? It really, it depends on the event. I try to have something other than drinking just because that's been a, that could be problem. Yeah. Everyone could get a drink, but you know, we try to keep it a little educational for them. I brought business coaches into an event before just, you know, it's, that can be a great thing. So you're combining, it's like this mixture thing, but you're also providing some value through a sketch speaker or content or something. Yeah. Got it. How's any, any real estate offices? Are you like popping into their meetings and doing market updates? Yeah. Some of the larger teams I'll, I'll try and pop in and, and give some information for them by, I'm not an in-house, a affiliated lender anywhere. It's, I ride solo in that capacity, but the teams we're trying to, you know, always push value or marketing is, is intense and, and we can really take the marketing piece off of it. If somebody doesn't have an admin, let's say, and they need stuff taken care of, you know, your house flyers, co-grained the program stuff like that, like we are marketing, uh, the top not much, so we have stuff for them to really help take that off of their plate. Hmm. Couple last notes, yeah, that I see here. One of them is you met yourself proclaim non-tech wizard, not a tech wizard, right? Um, are you trying to, this is relevant to the question, uh, I hope, uh, I'm thinking because you're, you're all in on realtors, is 100% referral from realtors, you know, um, I'm wondering if you're evaluating other channels such as consumer direct, are you looking at evolving your source of business, perhaps online coming up? Yeah. So I go back and forth with the end of the day, I wrote 240 loans last year and that put me in the top of what we do for a, for a lot of, you know, in the, uh, ranking. Yes. That's not that many people overall. And so, so by going out to the masses and is that, you know, we get so many, uh, opportunities to speak to advertisers and thousands and thousands of dollars. And at the end of the day, is that really worthwhile because targeting the consumer again, at the end of the day, that consumer is probably being referred by their real estate agent when they do go to go for, find home, that real estate agent is probably referring them to a lender or their accountant or their family is referring them to a lender. So are these, um, you know, these, these advertising opportunities that, like, they work while and it's, it's a fine mix of going out to the masses. Um, I think they're, the social media capacity is, uh, is a big piece and I think you have to be out there enough to, so that people remember you and they know you and it's another touch. Um, but is that something that I see myself going all in with or, or heavily focusing on now at the end of the day, uh, I think that it's an important piece that shouldn't, you can't forget about it, but, uh, you need to get face to face somehow. You really need to get face to face on the more face to face or the more touches you can get with somebody, uh, with, with realtors or for business connections, you know, great referral sources, those walking billboards, um, you, you really need more of an interaction. Yeah. In terms of the referral relationships, I'm looking, I'm looking real quick here. So, uh, I see, it looks like you've got, I'm just pulling it up right now, uh, a presence on Zillow in terms of reviews, um, is that an active thing you try and get people to do? Yeah. We're trying to, more so, you know, that's something that I've been working on lately is really trying to, to get more reviews on Zillow. We, uh, we, uh, guarantee raise a company where it with the net promoter score, so we kind of signed up so every consumer is taking a survey at the end of the day. So, asking them to do additional surveys, I recognize it's sometimes painful, uh, because it's, it's hard enough to get people to, you know, to get 50 or 40% of people to do the net promoter scores hard enough. So, Zillow reviews, I think are important. You know, everyone's going to Zillow at some point, starting a home search, whether it's their first or a part or just it's the first thing that comes up in a search when they say a specific property, um, you know, consumers are going online to, at least, see a home whether it's not in person, obviously, but it's a, at some point of a reference that they can look at, see a price, see the room count, whatever, and then going in person to see it. So, it's important to, you know, be visible there with those reviews and that's something that we're focusing on more this year. So, any concerns then, you know, I'm sure you're tuned in somewhat to the whole talk of disruption and, you know, Zillow, of course, bought a mortgage company and, you know, if you're a betting person, right, you would bet that they're going to continue to grow and expand that. Of course, now they're buying homes directly from people and, you know, one can only kind of foresee, right, what's coming for that down the road. How much of that, it sounds, you know, is, is, is a concern for you, do you have any, you know, plans on, I don't know, you know, trying to combat that in any way or you just like so confident that the, you know, the referral base, you've got a real, realtor's, eh, not too worried about it. Yeah, it's, you have to be cognizant of it, of changes in the industry. You have to be cognizant of your competition, what they're doing, and you can't stay static. You have to keep, you have to keep changing, you have to keep evolving, you are a business because the consumers are evolving to how they, you know, 10 years ago, people weren't going to Zillow as their first run of defense or, or, or another on the market. So, um, does the, am I concerned about Zillow acquiring a mortgage company or, you know, at the end of the day, I get calls every single week to save deal. Online line, there's, yeah, because it's the real estate is local. It's not entirely true these days, but it is pretty darn important, still. Uh, and if this process going to be fully automated, ever, I'm sure one day down the road, um, there will be a way to fully automate this, but right now it is still in an era that is far from an automated process. And you really, you have to be involved in your pipeline. You have to, you can't just let your pipeline go and pretend like everything's just going to show up at the closing table. You have to know what's going on on the clouds or else things can falsify very easily. And that's the difference in a good consumer experience in a bad one. Love it. Love it. Okay. Last question. Um, what are you still trying to do currently in your life or your business to make you uncomfortable, uh, on a more consistent basis? Cause that sounds like, so I think I'm 42 years old. So I think I'm a little past the generation that can be completely out there on social media. Um, by, you know, just ramping, ramping some further social media presence up, maybe a video one of these days that I've been saying I'll do videos, um, but that, that'll eventually come, um, that's, that's, that's a big thing. I mean, I think I've got some good information to provide and just finding the right forum I want to put it out there. Um, that's, that's the goal. And then just trying new things, you know, trying, uh, again, more so about creating value for consumers, and for my agents, you know, that's, that's more about what I'm, I'm looking for. I don't want to just be not, not falsely selling, but, uh, just wrong random information out there that is just internet junk, you know, I really want to find one more purpose for that. Well, I mean, I think you could, right? I mean, I'm just looking at your posts that you've got on your Facebook page and to your point about video, like, for instance, the most recent one that happened to be coming up for acts I've scrolled down a bit on your page. So one of them is, um, if you see too many for sale signs, that might not be the right neighborhood for you. So what I'm kind of advising people is to take the stuff you'd be posting like that and, you know, and, and, and I don't know how this getting posted for you, but it doesn't matter because, um, what's it, and you know this, but so I'm preaching to the listeners right now. You take those same things that maybe your company's posting for you or whatever and you do your own take on that with a video, you know what I mean? That's what's going to drive the engagement and the trust and so maybe that's a place for you to start and I'm happy to check in. Check in on you on that and make sure you're getting on your comfort zone. Uh, yeah, man, appreciate it. Okay, look at it. I know you got to go. Um, it is, time to get back to business. I appreciate you making time here. If anybody wants to reach out to you, how should they connect with you? Sure. Email me rob.wishnikwishtk at rakes.com. Uh, perfect. I'll find out in box zero by the end of every day. I'll get back to it. In box zero, man. So, so that's out of my comfort zone. I got to tell you that's a bit inspiring for me. My wife has 15,000 unread emails on her phone and it makes me cringe. I know. I have a junk Gmail account just for that. So anyway, man, appreciate you being here very much. It was great session and as always, listeners, if you like this episode, please leave us a review and you know where to do that. And we will see you on the next one. Thanks for listening to mortgage marketing radio. One more truth in mortgage marketing. Get more free training and resources at mortgagemarketinginstitute.com. Hey, guys, what's up? Real quick. Uh, you've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before. And I just want to quickly remind you if that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased loans. You need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase business for you. Well, good news. 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