Ep# 119 How to Capitalize on The Growing Renovation Loan Trend

In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with real estate agents is essential for success. However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge. With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections. Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read. Chris has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals. And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business. To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy of the case study today. You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too. Don't miss out. Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Hey listeners, Jeff Zimper, thank you so much for tuning into another episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio Podcast. If you are a first time listener, welcome. Let me know. Reach out to me. Hit me up on the socials, right? This book is where we've got our podcast mortgage marketing community. So just go to Facebook, check us out at the Mortgage Marketing Radio Podcast group over there. Love to have you join the ongoing conversations and additional content and access to me. I'm popping in there and providing additional content and support for you. So check it out there. And if you're a long time listener and you haven't yet checked out the Facebook group, please do so. If you are filling at all inclined to help us spread the word, reach more people, make a bigger impact in the mortgage space. Hey, how about a little review, right? Love to hear your reviews. Love to know that we're actually having an impact with you. Let me give you a shout out to one of our most recent reviews and this is from Ethan, Ethan who's got a long username over here on iTunes, Ethan 1297-543366, it's one heck of a user name there, Ethan. So Ethan just posted this on April 5th, man. So it's our newest and most recent review. We thank you, awesome podcast with solid, actionable ideas applicable for people at different levels of production, keeps me tuning in. All right, love that. And Ethan, you got yourself a free podcast t-shirt, okay? Here's what you do. Hit me up, message me on Facebook, bro. And let me know your shirt size, address, and we're going to take care of you. Thank you for that review and your reviews always help, whether you're new or experienced. And just it's good to know that we're making a positive impact in you and your business and your life, helping to you to navigate the choppy waters of being a mortgage loan professional in today's world. Speaking of having you help you navigate these choppy waters, hey, perhaps our community of mortgage marketing pro members might be right for you. If you're looking to take your career to the next level, if you're looking for additional help support, tools, resources, guidance done for you content, we can help you there. One of the most common areas that my listeners ask for help with is succeeding in attracting and engaging with real estate agents and building referral partnerships. And that is an area of expertise there, I say, dear listeners, as I've been helping loan officers do that for well over 10 years, and it was the number one source of my business as an originator doing over 10 units a month, 78 percent of my business came referrals from real estate agents from where you've been listening for a while. And now you know teaching agent classes and of the top interviews I've heard and done on this podcast and others, usually teaching agent classes is a key component of every top producer's strategy for multiple reasons. If you want to know why that works so well, go check out mortgagemarketing.pro, I put up an eight minute video that explains everything it might be right for you. I'd love to have you join us there in that growing community as well. And let's give a quick shout out to our friends over at the industry syndicate, right? So more real estate type shows their media, it's the real estate industry's first media network. So access to more good stuff, real estate specific appraisal, right? So you might want to check that out if you're looking for more good content. Check them out at industry syndicate.com. And with that said, that brings us now to my episode for today, our very special guests to esteemed gentlemen who I've tremendous amount of respect for Jeff Anofrio and Scott Nicholson from two different parts of the country, coast to coast. We're going here from Jersey to California, from the Jersey shores to the California shores. We are talking all about renovation, this niche of renovation. And Jeff has done some amazing things as well as Scott, of course, specific to the renovation space. And if you've ever wondered, like, how do I leverage Renault loans? How do I build a brand around them? If you're looking for a niche, if you're looking for a unique selling advantage, right? And you want to better understand this whole thing about Renault and selling homes, the HGTV way. How do I help realtors get past the perceptions and negative connotations they might have about Renault loans? How do I perhaps present Renault loans as an option to buyers? And of course, let's not forget the incredible opportunity with refies and Renault loans, folks. It's a huge market. It's underserved by many. Why? Because it takes a little bit of knowledge. It takes a little bit of learning. It's not just your cookie cutter, right? 800, 500, 20% down purchase. It's not your cookie cutter, refi, either. But in today's market, right, with this whole threat of, quote, disruption happening, oftentimes what helps you rise above the noise is, as I talk about a lot, just having a niche, standing out and standing, you know, being known for something. What are you known for? Right? If it's great rates and great service, congratulations. You and half a million other loan officers are attempting to be known for great rates and great service. Folks, that's not enough. So maybe renovation loans are for you. I've got links in the show notes to our conversation to the resources we talk about, like the awesome website of three resources that Jeff is offering through his website at renovatevis.com. You definitely want to go there and learn more. In today's episode, you're going to hear specific stories about how Renault loans have not only helped increase production for both of these guys, helped them capture real-to-referral partnerships and, right, helped them differentiate themselves in the local market and attract business to them. So we're going to impact different types of Renault loans. There are why Renault, if it's right for you or not, how to, right, help realtors better understand how to deal with Renault loans, position you, you know, and we're going to talk about the market opportunities here and it's just a great education all about Renault loans. So if you've ever wondered this renovation a niche for you to pursue, this is the episode two. Listen to. So with that said, let's get into this week's show. Jeff and Scott, welcome to the show. Thanks, Jeff. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Thanks for having us. You bet. Now, let's do this. As always, in the case for listeners, right, who aren't watching right now, let's identify by voice. We want to give a quick background bio who each of you are. So Jeff, I'll let you go first, tell us who you are, where you at, and a brief background on the mortgage industry. Yep. Thanks, Jeff on a preo, National Director of Construction and Renault and National Productions for a mortgage possible based out of California. In the business for 15 years started out in, you know, just a regular loan officer and after the crash found a niche specifically in the renovation space after having a background being construction from my family and decided that this was the right area for me to be in to maximize the knowledge that I knew of these products and the construction. So, you know, just kind of a natural, perfect marriage. Awesome. Thank you. Scott, you're up. Paulson, I've been in the business for 19 years right now. I am just a loan officer. I am in the trenches day to day and is dealing with clients and consumers and agents. And in particular, I've adapted renovation. I recognize years ago that it's immune to massive up and down movements and rates. It's immune sometimes to market conditions. You know, there's always a time and a place where renovation loans can affect something. So, that's what I believe. Okay. Okay. So, you're both actively doing renovation loans right now. Correct. Correct. All right. So, let's do this. My listening audience, right, it's a pretty, pretty big cross section in terms of, you know, years or 10 year in the industry from somebody who's been in, let's say, three years or less. And then we got, right, folks like you who've been in in a long time. And so, it's not like renovation is new, right? I mean, it's been out there forever. Some people look at it, consider it, you know, also there's a few different areas I want to touch on in our conversation today, like why Renault number one, who's it right for? Feel what the realtor issue, because as we know, when it's a rental loan, there's realtor like misconceptions there. So, with that set up, is there anywhere any, you know, you guys want to jump in in the conversation around a loan officer listening who might have been considering Renault? Yeah. I think the biggest thing is, you know, is support, you know, you, people always say they want to get into things, right? It's just, how do you get into it? How do you find the opening, you know, you're right now, you know, obviously rates dropped out a little bit right the second, but over the last couple of months prior, that is rates starting to increase. We started to see a lot more loan officers trying to offer that product out there, which is great. You know, we want them to learn how to learn, to do the product and do it properly. You know, it's, it's not the easiest thing to do. You know, you have to learn, you have to take the steps to learn it. And, you know, you know, you really are going to be, you know, had to have training meals all for a while. So you want to find that person obviously had a company that knows it, but, you know, there are a lot of people out there that could really help their businesses by adding Rena to their mix. I think it, you know, it's, it's not as hard as people think. I think it, what it really comes down to is building the right team around once you have that team around you. It makes life a lot easier. It took time. It took time for me. I'm pretty sure it took time for Scott. I mean, it's not something that happens overnight, but the product can, can, can make you a specialist, give you a little bit of, you know, a way to get in the door or in a little regular or a little, well, they got us to reach each, you know, don't have to call for having a product, you specialize in open stores that you don't normally have, you know, like other guys. So. All right. Scott, what would you say to that in terms of how you, yeah, sort of, yeah. Yeah. And I agree. And a, and a, and here's the thing, too, what's really cool is it doesn't matter, you know, the property condition, right? A lot of people think that the thing has to be fallen apart or to Rena. So that's not true because you can do Rena on new construction, right? And so it doesn't matter the level, I mean, so think of what Rena can help, right? It could take a listing that can be sold only as cash and you can offer a list with Rena. You could take someone who's in the existing property for 10 years and now the kids are getting older, the basic getting tighter and the move up transaction, this is not feasible, right? For many reasons, you can sit there on that one and add the second store, right? You can sit there and take that first time home buyer, right? And they, a lot of people think this is the best loan for the first time home buyer, like the 100% financing, little stuff like that, which I disagree with. And Jeff and I know, I know Jeff's passion with this with first time home buyer. This is the greatest tool the rent alone for a first time home buyer, one to get in the market, right? In two to build wealth through renovation, far, far none. That's the best, I think, renovation by far is the best first time home buyer program that we as an industry have to offer. So there's a passion there and the reason why, and I think picking with Jeff's comment on, you have to add this to your clipper moving forward because think of all of the internet changes that are going on from agent space to our spaces, they're focusing on just the cookie cutter, high fight go, easy down payment, just vanilla stuff. So that space is getting super tight, super competitive in many different ways. And there's some big players that left the rental space. This whole space, the rental is wide open, big jump in and get in and create that niche. And then lastly, I'll add is once you've got in there and you've found that mentor, like Jeff said there, found that support, right, from the back end of your bank. And if you can get in there, what a great way to get your agent meeting and most of the time L.O. as I see complain like, no, they got their lenders, lenders been there for 20 years. Hey, I appreciate that. I appreciate the loyalty. Let's say Jeff is that 20 year lender relationship, I say, keep Jeff, you and Jeff moving on your normal stuff, but let me help you with your rental options moving forward. That's a great way to segue into a gaming agent relationship. Yeah, love that, love that. Before we segue into agent relationships, because that's incredibly relevant, why do you guys think this is the best first time home buyer option? Well, I'll give you, I'll give it a perfect example and the nickels crossed, right? I mean, first time home buyers, Bay Area, found a piece of property, probably one of the worst I've seen in my years, got it down to 365, I'll be fast in general here. We bought a piece of property for 365, we renovated it, got it back up to speed, put 300 out, 300 in the rental budget, so we're acquisition with 665. That's a big project, rental-wise, and the after-approved value, now what they have today, now the project is done and I got them into a normal loan after the fact, 1.415 million. Wow. So thinking that, they made almost $800,000 in their first transaction, as a consumer. Okay. So that's an awesome story, right? I love that, it's got a big impact, there's a lot of other considerations around that, because I mean, what experience do you have, or you're obviously kind of a rental expert if you will, dare I say, you guys, so you're not going to present this very well, because you've been doing it for so long, but like the average first time home buyer, right? How do they receive a rental pitch compared to a standard? I mean, I think it all depends on how the table is set, right? I mean, if you got an agent that wants to just push them into the cookie cutter house and wants to get them in, and it doesn't want to present them options, it all starts there, right? Unless they've come consumer direct, where they're coming to you directly, because they're watching HTTV and they've got these ideas and they're having, because they've seen what's possible, it all begins at one point, whether that's coming from the agent where they're starting, or if they're seeing it on TV and they're going down that route. So obviously, most first time home buyers do tend to go towards the cookie cutter house and already ready, you know, serve and paint it, everything's ready to go. I think we're scouts really going with this, and what I think is why I think it's so valuable is if I'm a young person, and I'm looking at millennials are our biggest piece of the market right now, if I'm one of those guys, and I can buy a property, and there's a potential for me to make instant equity. Scott's example is the anomaly, I mean, I can only think of two other times I've ever seen that happen, but I can also tell you, you know, I could name probably 30, 40 people off the top of my head, that I'd help create, as first time home buyers, 20, 30, 40, 50, thousand dollars worth of instant equity. You're now setting yourself up for the rest of your life if you're buying that property correctly and utilizing the rental product and now creating equity that normally might have taken seven, eight years for you to build up, and now you could be in three years doing moving into a mover up property, and I think that's where it gets lost on agents and everybody else is that this could be, you're shortening the cycle of buying a property when you put them in a rental loan if they're creating instant equity because now they're ready to move up faster. So I think that's where buying this and using it as a first time home buyer, there's so much value in using the product. Now we are going to get the point when we have a huge market share in rental, probably we can come when we never, but again, I just believe at least to offer to everybody because a lot of people, a lot of buyers always, you know, I always get when they're going to move up property all year, why wasn't they told about this product, you know, the first time around when I bought it, and it's let it in off of the product and they were just scared of it and they didn't know. So it goes back to that thing again, it's about education. So we want to make sure that they, that we can get to them. So by our L.O.s having that education, understanding the products, it gives more opportunity to those first time home buyers. Okay. Yeah, those are, I mean, those are really good points. And yeah, sometimes the Nickel Cross example because it just happened is a bad example because it's an anomaly. Most of the time when a first home buyer comes in, right, they may have a gift, right, from mom or dad or whatever, use FHA or a 3% fan or whatever they're using, right? And they're just kind of subject to the property condition with the market is bearing in the neighborhood they want, right? A lot of times they want something in a neighborhood that just price, you know, finish a more finished product just as more out of their affordability, they can't afford it. So what the rental loan allows them to do is to come in and it opens their perspective or opens up property options for them. And in particular, if we get into a neighborhood that they like, and usually the like is always more, you know, pricey or heavier price point than what they can afford or what we recall them on. But they're going to get a neighborhood at a cheaper price point, right, gain it. And not only that, if they were get into the neighborhood and they could afford it, most of their cash is invested in the acquisition of just the property, just the normal property, and they don't have much rental budget, right? So it takes years for them to go, okay, we'll get to the master, we'll get to all that other stuff later as we replenish our reserve. And at first I'm home, all right, that takes a while, right? So in order to get a property in a neighborhood that you really maybe could really get into in a school district, be my wife, be in a teacher, that's really important. And I'm a big advocate of getting into a proper school district. So we can get into neighborhoods that we really don't financially belong in, opportunity. So, and then just right with the agent, I had a dollar for every time I heard an agent kind of mone about a renovation, and a lot of times I go, okay, let's talk about that. So what do you need? Like, well, I just see on cheese, I had one, it's just a forever to close, and this, and problems, I go, okay, so when was that? That was, you know, that was 10 years ago, I go, okay, just a long time ago, but okay, so were you involved in the transaction, oh, no, no, no, that was another agent in my office. I go, that's so unfair for you to say that because an understand agent, so this is educational, right? Just talked about that too, just then, or he was talking about, now it's a chance for us to educate the agent now, who are sometimes our biggest non-avocates of rent out. They just want to get paid, make it simple, they'll make it complex, and you get a chance to educate them, I go, like, get that, that's usually sometimes a long officer just hanging on to the transaction to get paid, so he's going to smoke and mirror his way through that. That's why sometimes either people get it, and I'm not going to jeopardize my email there by hanging on to a rental loan, I'll give it to an expert, right? Or someone who hangs on to it gives us a bad name. So it's my word of advice to your listeners, if you're going to get into the rental space, then have a commitment in learning, get that mentor and get in there because it opens up a ton of space for you, option-wise, with multiple people. And the consumer, just right, last bit here, is, just right, I love working with person home buyer, millennials, consumers that aren't painted by the real estate agent first. And then when I'm done with the education, I'm done with a pre-qual, and I say this, I always say this, we can pivot on any property that comes up, we can buy, remember that. So we're going into a property, we're pivoting left into a traditional, non-health and safety property. Right, we're going to use this program, what we've already worked on, and if I get into a property that's going to have to take a rental, then great, we're already done. So I can write either offer, where a lot of bankers or loan officers can, they're one dimensional. So where in the process, then, it sounds like early in the process, let's just assume you're getting a referral from a realtor. Are you kind of like, you know, seeding, if you will, educating the borrower on the potential of rental from the get-go? I think you've got to be careful with that, though, too, because, you know, you start to drop the rental piece on them without the agent being happy with it or being open to it themselves, then you kind of leave yourself out there. And next thing, you know, you may not get another referral from them, because that agent doesn't want to go down that route. So you've got to have an open and honest conversation with your agent to make sure that they understand because they're sending them to you, and the referrals coming over, and they think that they're just getting pitched on a, you know, a regular, you know, conventional deal, and all of a sudden next to you, they come back, and now they've got to look at properties completely different than the constitution they went through. You could be putting your, you know, your foot in your mouth, and you don't want that to be the case. So it's, you really got to start with your agent and make sure that they understand that you're an expert at it. If you're at that point, then they understand that they're not going to be a good one. And if they aren't an expert at it, then they, what they should, you know, really just have that conversation, just to ask that agent, like, is this an option of something that you would consider helping this customer with? They express any interest in the HTTP type style house. I mean, that's where you really need to start, because that's going to drive the conversation. You start driving with Renault, and the agent didn't bring it up, and you can, like I said, you could bite off your nose and slide your face. So you got to be careful. It's a fine line to walk, because especially if they're coming from you and it's a referral to you, you don't want to, you don't want to cause an issue with the referral base. So it comes like that. Right. Now, that's a 100% crap, but also now you can look at it for different, let's say that referral came from an open house, right? For example, a lot of times they have problems, like an agent will have problems on the conversion of those open house leads, right? So let's say I got 10 great clients from open house back, can you quantify qualifying or whatever the situation there is? A lot of times, you know, there's no loyalty there, like, okay, great, great, great, I want to use this agent. And so there's ways that you can work the Renault into the conversation. And so it makes that agent right there, an expert on finding those Renault type properties too, right? So that way you can, because here's the thing, well, if I had two buyers, I'll left and right, and my left one is just strictly what you're right and feet, right? Probably I'm going to have, maybe have a challenge, you know, or lower percentage of keeping that buyer for my agent. But if I had the conversation, the right side, if I had the conversation with great, here's that. But also, if I may understand, I'm an expert in renovation. So if whatever property comes up and I explain that, that becomes the stickiness that consumer can stay with us in our relationship with the agent and I, because that makes sense to us. There's other ways to figure that out. Yeah, let me see if I can clarify that for a moment. So in your scenario, you've got the AB buyer, one who's just rating fee and, you know, you're maybe going down that road of that conversation. But if you can open up and have a, like, I like what you said is that any property that comes on market, you know, we can make an offer on, I mean, that's how you'll have that conversation of a, of a Renault. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Well, yeah. And a, yeah, and a lot of times when the direct consumer comes that way, you know, one of the things, because they're coming at me with the Renault mindset, so I'll take care of that piece and educate them and build the numbers and build, you know, the PCA, all that stuff. But also, I really, I have to make sure in that conversation because you know, you can do it. A lot of times the consumer doesn't realize, oh, yeah, you can write a paper or you can write traditional on them. Absolutely. So in my presentation, I show them, you know, here's a traditional. So when they go back out in the street and start looking, they, they have their eyes for the entire inventory, good and bad. Well, so let's, let me, let me open some more options for them. But how does a consumer know, right, because I'm, if I'm putting my consumer hat on, right? I mean, I don't really know that Renault is an option to buy a, buy a home, right? Well, you know, the agents have a consultation at the beginning. Yeah, but they're, but they're, but by and large, they're not though, right? They're not. Yeah. Yeah, they're not, they're not sitting the buyer down going, okay, here's your option. You can buy perfect pristine property or you can buy one that needs some TLC, right? That's called a Renault. Most agents aren't doing that. Well, we also see a lot too, isn't it? We get consumers who'll come to us who, you know, weren't schooled on the option of Renault because they got an approval from a quick and long, right? And then they, they actually go under contract and then they find out there's issues with the property and then next thing, you know, now they're coming and they're finding us because we're going to do Renault, right? So it's kind of the other way around too. So, like I said, I'm going to go back to it again. It's a fine line. You got to be careful how you walk it if you're going to try to, you know, guide that person into a Renault. Most agents are okay with it, at least having the conversation, but I just, I just, I guess what I'm doing is I know you got a lot of base of law officers that are out there. I just want them to be careful of how they, how they start pushing that up when we may not expect them to. So just, I guess the big, the best thing I would recommend is if it's coming from a referral from an agent, sit down and talk with your agents to understand what their comes and what they understand and just ask them, did you mention to them about the possibility of, you know, buying a house needs a little bit of work, you know, that kind of stuff. See where they stand. I think that's your best, best starting point. No, I agree. I agree. I would never, never bring a Renault from an agent. I maybe don't have a great, or don't know the whole relationship, but also, too, it's that, like, just has a great point, but as an LL, I'm going to sit down with the agent and talk through them and go, okay, so you just, so here's my playbook, what's your playbook, right? And then all the time, Bill Pextra call me, said, and I got a great client for you. Here's how it is. They just give me the skinny, the notes on it, right? Yeah. So I know to stay in that lane. I think the point that I really want to highlight there that you're making, Scott, is you don't really present Renault unless you've kind of had that conversation with the agent that that's a possibility for us, right? Right. Yeah. Correct. I know, I know several of my agents right now. I have the green light to do that. Yeah, but you don't want to know my background. Exactly. Yeah. They demonstrated your expertise. You've talked of, it's not like you're whipping this out of your back pocket. And this, and like you said earlier, at the start of this podcast, what I love about that is that if you want to differentiate yourself as a loan officer, hey, here's one way to do that. Pick a few agents that you think might get it, right? Might be intelligent enough to understand this option. And then, yeah, sit down and talk about when you get, you know, there's properties out there that need help, right? Let me be your Renault guy on that. Yeah. I like it. Well, okay. But think, yeah, think of where you can build with it, right? Because you can go in and take your Renault background and be creative. So for an example, go, like, there's a couple of things you said right there is, well, how can I go to, so for example, we'll be back up. So I'm in, if I have my Renault background, I feel confident with it and know what I'm doing. And I got my support. I'm going to go out and teach my agents, right? That the option is there because you're saying, well, don't just saying, which is 100% crack. And I'll never do it either. I don't lead in someone I don't know, right? And then destroy that relationship. But it's, there's the education opportunity for the loan officer yet educated, get your stuff down and get your presentation, go into those offices and go, guys, there's some, let me open up some windows. For an example, if I was new and I got my education, I'm going to go in and teach agents like, for example, both sides, listing agents, I'm going to teach them how I can help them get more listings, right, and get the property as is. So in the listing presentation, why my agent deserves it, right, is we can sell a house as is. So you don't have to spend any money to get it back into shape, right? We can take that listing where as a normal agent is going to do what? Well, we're going to have to sell it all cash, might have to reduce it a little bit, reduce the margin, maybe look for an ambassador, right, there's given away your equity position, it really doesn't need to be that way. Then on the flip side, I'm going to teach fire at the agent, right, how to get in and get the buyers more stickiness to you and create loyalty because you're given a program that's going to open up the market and opportunities for them. So do you provide some coaching then for agents on how to perhaps broach the subject of Renault with buyers? Absolutely. It hit me. I mean, those are your lunch and learns right there, right, so just put your simple stuff. You can speak to both sides of the fence, listing, right, how to double in that transaction. I'm with the super easy to double in, I mean, you know, getting to be a bad name or a term out there, but let's say at least sell your listing as is, right, get that listing presentation. Now sell that listing. Heck, now they even plug a buyer in there, right, or even create a buyer pool in there. So you just keep going with it. Then you get into the buyer's side and you have buyer's agents, are they're tough and they're frankly wore out of the market because they're being commoditized, right, and they go, oh my God, now show them for two months these properties and they left me to go somewhere else. So imagine now you can have a different conversation and a different value, right, with those consumers as a buyer's agent, you can help with that. Interesting. My wheels are spinning here. Where did you get you, how did you get educated Jeff and Scott, right, so that you are knowledgeable on Reno? I want to be honest, it's what I recommend not to do, which is, I went at it myself and just, I learned and, you know, I brought some, I went out, I met with, I think I said this before, but you know, when you're looking to start one of the things that's always good to do is go out and find a local HUD consultant and take them out to, take them out to, you know, practice or have a coffee, you know, just to give them the real estate agent and go learn from them as to what they do in their practice and that's kind of what I did. I learned from a couple of HUD consultants who got an understanding of what they did. So kind of gave me a starting point to know where to go, but when it came to the loan side, I'm going to be honest, I kind of, you know, I kind of won at a time because there wasn't a lot of, there weren't very many people in 2009, 2010, they had the same vision that I did that Reno was going to be where, you know, it was going to be the spot. So luckily, I, you know, I had at least an underwriter who understood it, which was good. And we were able to fumble our way through with, you know, future transactions, which is not the thing I would recommend here, it's not the way to go. But at that time, there wasn't a big, you know, unless you were working for, you know, Wells Fargo or a B of A, because there were really only big players in it that they were the guys giving out the training. Otherwise, you know, a guy like me working at a smaller shop, I learned on the fly, you know, and, you know, with the mistakes along the way, sure, absolutely, it takes, it takes time to learn these things. It's not easy. And even today, you still learn new things every, every day, there's so many little things that pop up on these deals that you just wouldn't be able to, you know, position yourself for. But that's also why I said, you know, in this type of situation, there's enough people out there now that are doing them. There's enough education out there from different lenders and investors. You know, there's guys like me who are out there doing trainings, I mean, there's people out there that can give you a little bit more nowadays versus what was, what was available 10 years ago. Yep. How about you, Scott? How'd you get so educated? Yeah. I'm the more conservative guy. So it's big. I had to sit down with underwriting and processor, you know, in my branch at the time and say, okay, so how are we doing these or how, you know, what, so I was learning from like other loan officers mistakes. Okay. So why did that one go sideways? What happened there? So I was more trying to learn that way, you know, how to structure it because why don't you get a pretty good understanding in there and like just did back and earlier, if you're right here, just right, it's not that hard, right? So all you're really doing is adding the property piece and some information to a normal credit transaction, right? So that's the, yeah, so I would me personally, I need to shoot you to, I mean, and I'd do it over again. That could fast forward. There's a lot of great information out there, but I would go sit down with a great processor and a great underwriter and just pick their brains a little bit, watch a few files, I used to watch files, you know, because everyone's got to be tweaked here and there and understanding why that then ultimately it starts to come forward and then I'll say, I got it. And then just watch your changes as we move forward. Well, both of you guys mentioned find a mentor and support. So depending on whoever's listening in your own organization, right? If you've got a Rena division, you might have that mentor internally. Yeah. No, without a doubt. And I, I've been on other, you know, interviews when I spoke to people and I said this in the past, and if you got a problem or you're not sure what to do on something, call me, you know, I'm not, I'm not looking to recruit you, but I'd be happy to give you information because I'd rather have you get the right info so you don't, you know, humble with one and because of the biggest issue that we run into and it goes back to the same thing. It's kind of, I was, we both mentioned earlier, it's patients having a bad name about these loans. That typically happens because somebody, you know, gave it a shot or didn't know what they were doing and they said, oh, man, I got run on my rate sheet, let me give it a shot and I'll, we'll see what happens, kind of what I did at the beginning, right? But again, I don't recommend, but, you know, just for 10 years from now, I would rather help you and say, hey, look, here's what I do. I would know in that situation. These are things you should look for as I'm concerned, that's worth, that that's worth it to me. So I might never be a service, feel free to share my number, I care less, I'd rather have you do it right. I love that. And last time we talked, one of you guys mentioned who, you know, from a loan officer perspective, if you're evaluating Renault, you know, it's like similar to loan officers look for different niches like, you know, divorce attorneys and things like that. Well, that's not necessarily a niche that's right for everybody. So who would Renault be right for or wrong for, right, if they're considering it as an LL? I mean, anybody. No, no, no, no, no, no, and this is a loaded response. It's right for everyone who's not closing 20 transactions a month and has, you know, 1000 agents and 10,000 database, fast clients and all that. It's for everybody, right? Why would it not be? So my, my thought I'm coming from is because it takes a certain level of education, understanding the ability to, you know, educate others and, right? Yeah. Well, I think this is such an important topic right now that we're discussing because if, you know, and I think we're all agree on just how much the market's changing with technology, right? And that space is, is sucking up. It's taking market share, standing now as we speak of your just vanilla, you know, stuff, credit files, a paper stuff, but like, so people have to make adjustments, counter adjustments to that. And if they don't, then if they're doing 10, they'll go to five, if they're doing five, they'll go to one or two, right? So how do I keep my pipeline active and building in my career surviving? Just as these big companies are investing billions of taking your market share and streamlining quote, streamlining the process, all that stuff, right? What are you doing counterproductive to that to maintain or keep your, you know, hand on, you know, your business, right? And that's why I think Renault is such a huge place. Well, here's the thing too. What? Oh, shoot, I guess the stat, my 52-age is showing. There's a 19, I think it's 19. One of the number stats I gave to a big realtor presentation was I showed them two numbers was one was 1996, half of all homes built were built prior to 1996, right? I think forget the stat. I was going away when I was doing my research, I was like, oh, shit, those houses are, we're getting some old inventory coming up and they're just getting older and older and older. I think of just the need for the product as we continue to move forward. It depends. I think that's also, you know, somewhat market dependent, exchanging a little bit from what it once was, but it definitely was somewhat market dependent. That's why, you know, if you look at the endorsement schedule, you'll see the majority of these are done in the Northeast. But that's also one only one area you're seeing. You're not seeing the home style Renault report, which tends to be in other areas, you know, such as California, because of the higher loan limits. So, yeah, you really, if I'm an L.O., like I said, I think I've just more like, I'm looking to think outside the box. And Renault is one of those type of areas to do so, but it's also one of the areas where I also like to look outside the box, so where I'm going to go find that business set. And that's, and that's, I've always been a huge proponent of going into contractors, you know, contractors or they're under, they're under you lies, people all go after them from business. The contractors don't know these programs exist. So it's kind of like, you know, you want to bring these two people together and let them know that we've got financing options to help you do smaller projects, like guy, you might be doing $30,000 projects, because he's only got the GE Capital card, you know, maybe he wants to do $50, $60,000, $70,000 projects, but he doesn't know that these financing jobs are, these potential is out there by using a Renault loan. So we need to, that's another way to help an L.O., out, drive some additional business who bring business in that they're not normally looking for, because that business is always there. So that's another way to look at it as well. So how do you tie in that person into the purchase transaction, or are you also kind of different into the RIFI pool there for homeless people? Definitely a RIFI pool. And we do a lot of, you'd be surprised how many, how many RIFI, when everybody says no, RIFIs are dead, because the rates are rising, I mean, I'm sitting there salivating, you know, because in all honesty, those projects don't go away, you know, the homeowner that wants to go, you know, do an ad level and put a $200, $300,000, you know, addition onto their house, because they're sitting on a rancher and small, you know, the smallest house of the development. Nine times out of 10, they're not sitting there with $200,000 or $300,000 in cash to do that project. Right. They need this project, and that's why you go after a design build firm, design build firms or they're the ones doing those type of projects. So, you know, so, yes, so definitely on the RIFI side, it's definitely obviously there for the purchase side. Never, you know, always going to be there on the first side, but you're going to see a lot of bigger projects on the RIFI side. So definitely some definitely a definite avenue of business that shouldn't be ignored. Even picking on that with Jeff right there is in California, if you kept up with a big zoning law of changes that California has passed just to free up the affordable and healthy affordable housing, right. So, they've now streamed like the ADU process, right, auxiliary dwelling unit, the granny unit, right. So, that's something in the in the Renault space that is really catching on fire and partner yourself with architects, right, and getting into that space to where you can now, I've referred my architects busy like he's never been because they keep referring them out to all my ADU, or I want to go and ADU, I've got to put Graham in the backyard or I've got to move the kids back in there because they can't afford that one. I just got a nice visual of putting Graham in the backyard. We're not talking about you got all the baby boomers, right, above ground set, above ground. Oh yeah, well, yeah, that's right. Yeah, well, Graham is still propped up in the chair, but think of that, run with that, for example, some of the housing market has stalled out because the prop 13 here in California in particular, right, has caused more damage because now the baby boomers now can't afford to move out because of their tax bracket. Right. So, what eventually you either have to one, because I've done it personally with my mom or my dad, is either I got to get him into a home or I got to make some accommodation, right, to appease that in medical or those getting older, right. So, that's just going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. No, I love that example and I'm glad we mentioned ReFi because that's a part of it and look at let's, like, you know, you talk about demographic housing, market info, people aren't moving as often as they used to. So, you know, there's people staying longer and you look at some of those older properties and they're everywhere and in the country. They're even in Selcal. We know where they are, those areas and, you know, if you give people, you know, paying a picture for them that, hey, you love your home, you can stay here feeling like you kind of outgrown it. Well, you don't need to sell and lose that tax basis and all that stuff. Yeah, do a, do a friggin', excellent remodel, addition, whatever. Yeah, right. I was going to ask you guys. Are you in there? Yeah. Do you want to do a quick overview of the, if I understand this correctly, three different versions of Renault, right, home style, 203K and VA? Sure. Yeah. Who wants to take that on? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. So, you got your FHA, you know, FHA comes in two flavors. You got your full, you're full 203K and you're in your limited version, the full K allows you to, you know, basically do projects as large as you want up to the county loan limits. And then those county loan limits increase for each one of the, for each initial unit of one up to four units, the limited version formerly known as the streamline allows for projects of non-structural use of the $35,000. So, you know, FHA is a great product. It's always going to, it's, it's been the main stream one for the longest time. When it's actually gotten a name, even though there hasn't really been a name out there for it, but 203K is the one that everybody knows. And then you got your Fannie Mae home style, you know, your Fannie Mae home style is getting a lot more popularity for a lot of different reasons, mainly because, you know, you could put down 20% and avoid mortgage insurance, or, you know, you can do, you know, as little as 3% down. You know, you can use a home ready with it as well, or using 5% down and just having to reduce that money. So, there's a lot of different variations you can work with, plus, home style also allows to be able to do second homes to something that's in a resort area or, you know, be that somewhere on the Jersey Shore. And then, you know, obviously, you can also, with home style, you can do an investment purchase as well. Or, refi, I should say, you can do it both of those, which is nice. Now, typically we don't look for that to be, for the guy who's looking to fix and flip because we don't want to get ourselves into an EPO situation. So, truly, for that guy, for the buy and hold, that's a great product for the investment properties as well. And then, lastly, the one that's starting to gain a little bit of traction right now, I should say a little bit of gaining more traction is the VA renovation product. And the VA renovation product is very much in its infancy. There's some lenders who've been going for a couple of years now, but if you kind of look around, there's not really a hard and fast rule when it comes to the amount of work that you can do. There's some companies that are limiting it. You know, 30,000, 35,000, you know, other ones that are saying there's no cap. So it's kind of, that one's more of a wild, wild rest right now. So we've got to kind of pick and choose what lender you're going to work with when it comes to the VA renovation, but the rest of them have specific guidelines. So, yeah, those are the three main products right now, and hopefully we'll start seeing some more products coming down the bike in the renovation space as well. Got it. So, Jeff, are you a broker? No. We're your direct lender. Actually, I apologize. We're a direct lender. We do have a wholesale channel through some west, which is our broker assigned. So we do offer those products through there as well. Okay. Obviously, if somebody's working at a retail bank or whatever, then they're, you know, limited by the options they've got, where they work currently, but okay. Some people can broker out though too as well. So that might be an option. Yep. Absolutely. For sure. All right. Anything you want to add to that, Scott? Are we good there? Yes. The spot on. Pretty simple. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So explain to me what you're doing in terms of what I see on the outside, and you can kind of adjust course here. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I am from a few escoyποι who have been on the coast for too long because that happens in our experiences of city security particularly during this time of bite that is I also want to attract the renovation business right now at what it is. It's really meant to be an educational resource for anybody who's interested in building wealth using real estate. So yeah, we definitely talk about renovation loans. We're going through, we're showing people the beginning of a project all the way through the end of a project. We're showing inspections, we're trying to show all the pieces of the puzzle when it comes to doing these things. We're also showing people how to fix and flip properties, we're showing, you know, just simple home inspections and we're doing interviews, you know, same type of thing. So the idea is to create a spot that, you know, people can go and get information to understand how these programs work and how they can build wealth using real estate. So we don't brand it. I mean, the one good part about it is you'll never see me talking about, you know, my mortgage company or anything like that. So loan officers in other areas want to use the information afforded out to their customers to say, hey, this might be really got an idea. Look at this quick tip on how to use Renault. You won't see me seeing her going, hey, call this number, you know, for a loan, it's not the idea. And just like I was telling you guys earlier, I'm going to provide education so that more and more people consider using these products when they're looking at wealth building strategies because I honestly believe that in today's market with the way that our kids are coming out of school and college are coming out with tons and tons of debt and one of the fastest and easiest ways that they can get out of it quickly is by, you know, I'll give you an example. I did this for a student recently. He's a Temple University. He went in, we went to do a renovation loan for him and he did a Renault. He created some instant equity and then he also is renting out loans in the property. And at the end of the year, when he's done his school and graduating, he's now got equity and he's got a base of income coming in from this property. Now that's a smart millennial, right? I'm not to say they're all true. These guys and kids and whatever to figure out ways to build wealth and that's really the idea I'm ready. And so I appreciate bringing them up. No, that's great. So you're making this available for, I'm trying to think I don't answer this question because the first thing that came up when I thought when I see what you're doing is why, right? Because it kind of flies in the face of, you know, and you're not in your head to be like, yeah, why? Why would you be doing this, man? There's got to be a payoff on the back end. You've got to be attracting business to you. So, you know, as a byproduct, I definitely get some phone calls this and that, but it's funny. People ask me that all the time. I'm like, why are you doing? I said, well, you know the Gary B book. You have to have it. I don't know my right book yet. It's, you know, eventually, yes. I love to make money off of it. Maybe it's advertising. Maybe advertising on the site. Something like that. But right now, it's strictly education. We want to get people to understand these product projects are out there, and these programs are out there, and the money is there to be made, you know, so that people can get out of their day-to-day job if they don't want to be in it. They want to use real estate to build wealth like it's there. So you just need to figure out how to go use it and how to get it, right? And that's what this is all about. So yeah, so I really don't have a right hook yet. But you're in your local community, if I'm correct, right, on this brand interviewing people doing videos, like you said, before and after type stuff, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I'm going to put links, by the way, if you're cool with that, in the show notes, too. Your main page, then you got YouTube. You got some great videos, by the way, on YouTube. And so that goes to my point earlier about how I've seen some L's, L's, are trying to brand this and be like, hey, you see how those homes they buy on HGTV, did you know? They do that because they got a rental loan, in most cases. Yeah. We're trying to do that too. I mean, we are taking projects, and you'll see one, we're getting right to roll out soon. It's going to be like a 30, 40-minute episode where we're actually showing them from the beginning of a project all the way through them finishing it moving in. So I mean, it's that the idea is to get to that point and to really show people what's possible. And that's the idea behind the whole thing. What percentage of your business is rental, roughly? As a group, I would say, because obviously Scott and a couple other guys that we have, I would say rental, probably accounts, probably about, I'd have to look, I'll stop ahead. I'm going to guess. I'm going to say 35%. Okay. I know I'll put you on the spot there, but you know. Yeah, no, it's okay. I don't think it's 50. Yeah. I always wanted to be on the 50, but I think we're at like 35, I'd say probably 35 before we made it. So we're not arranged. All right. Yeah. Mine's actually much higher than that. Yeah. I think mine's 50 or Orange County, mine's North to 50. You're in Orange County. So we're talking higher loans, higher rental amounts, all that. Well, let me clarify. So, you know, through Jeff again, so I, I, I have California, Washington, Nevada. So I service those states. So I, I get them from Reno, Nevada to Tacoma to, you know, Orange County. Orange County is, is a lot tougher. Nice to do the higher loans, it's just, it's just tougher, you know, but in, in the other places, in throughout California and other spots, it's, you know, a lower price point. It's easier. And I'll, I'll segue into one product that, our space is, you know, directly missing and it's being worked on as we speak, you know, Jeff is, is just a jumbo reno to open up some of the higher price points, Seattle, Orange County, LA County, and so on, so forth. That's the properties there that you'd love to that are just at higher price points. All right. So let me connect the dots here and it's okay to, you know, talk about any, any type of platform you get you might have, Jeff, that might be available for a loan officer because, you know, I'm trying to understand where Scott fits in. Like, you heard him just, just, just kind of articulate how he's attached to you. So explain that. Yeah. So wait, we, we hooked up a little over a year, a half, I guess a year, a half ago or so now. And we have a team that's nationwide. So I'm in Jersey, we have a couple of other offices around the country, we, we created a platform called Mortgage Fossil, which is our retail platform, but Scott, myself and a couple other gentlemen are, are reno specialists. So we created a platform where we, you know, obviously have the infrastructure to be able to handle these deals, but we've also created a platform so that if you're a loan officer who wants to learn more about it, wants to get into it and doesn't want to fly solo, they can come in and they can actually utilize our platform where they have a reno specialist next to them during the entire process. And then they create, they get education, they learn how to do the projects, learn how to understand how to really, you know, really market them, how to get out there and build their business. You know, in my last company, I've seen, I hope for answers, it was doing zero reno, get them to 15, 20% of their pipeline being reno. So it's a, it's a big number when you, you start really adding it in, especially in a market where you got, you know, market compression and everybody's fighting for that vanilla deal when you can use reno to offset some of that, you know, those lower margin products, it does, it does help to really build your bottom line, but also making more competitive in the other areas as well. So that's kind of our platform and we've been, you know, adding branches and, you know, adding, uh, and singular L.O.s around the country, um, trying to build that up, utilizing these, these, these, the skill set. So what are the options on that? Does somebody, you say out of branches that mean they hang their license with you and then is there like an L.O. individual option on a referral situation or? It depends, I mean, we, you know, it depends on the state and the federal licensing requirements, you know, we have some guys that are one man, you know, one man branches and obviously, we don't, that's not our, obviously ideal situation, but, you know, we have been adding branches around the country. So, you know, theoretically, there's an opportunity to plug somebody in, in different states all over as we're growing. We've been on a pretty significant tear as far as bringing people on board, branches being kind of being loaded all over the country. So as that continues to hit, we'll have more and more opportunities to plug local L.O.s in certain areas into branches. So, over our existing branches, it would like to just add this as part of their, you know, to the platform that aren't really doing it now, you know, they can bring their production over and we can help them to grow it by utilizing these products. Awesome. Cool. Good. And as far as, like I said, links in the show notes, for those who want to learn more, connect with you, what would be the best place for them? Because I'll put links to the YouTube channel, but where else should people want to contact you? Yeah. Well, I'll give, you know, we could put up my personal mortgage possible site and then I wasn't joking earlier. If you guys have a run-on deal and you've got issues, you know, do me a favor, call me. I will help you. I mean, I can't, I'll do the best I can to answer every question, but if you have something that you just thought, you don't know where to get started or you need some direction, just call me, 609-217-9409 and Jeff, you put that in notes if you want. Call me, text me. I will be happy to help. Again, I would rather be there to help you versus letting you all flat on your face and then hurt the name of our products. I want you to be successful, regardless of what company you have, because if you're successful, that means that your agent's going to talk about your success, which is going to, then whisper down a lane, help me and Scott and the rest of us in the renovation space. It's a, it's a, it becomes a high product of everything if you're successful. So I'd be happy to help. I mean, less than a thousand people call me tomorrow, Jeff, I'm a little bit of problem, but otherwise, I would be happy on an individual basis to help when I can. Yeah. We're going to put links in there for all that kind of stuff. The website is renovatest.com plus there's a Facebook presence you've got, which is cool. You've got a lot of good content up there. So we're going to put links and all that kind of stuff. Mr. Nicholson, do you want anybody to reach out to you or? No, I'm, you know, and Jeff says that it's, it's a real deal tonight and I feel the same way, too, because I still have those battles with those agents, so we're, you know, we don't want to do this and we don't want to go down that path. And that's because of, you know, what we talked about earlier in the show. So yeah, if they, if they want to reach out, you know, and, hey, you know, I'm, because Jeff on the east coast, I'm on the west coast. So shoot. If they want to buzz me on my cell phone, I can just fine. So here's my number five, six, two, or you can put it below in your comment. So I think you have myself. Yeah, I do. Yeah. If they got an issue or where do I start or how do I give a realtor presentation? Because if we can grow the space, which is, in which is really, this is something you said earlier, a lot, it's been around for a long time, but you'd be amazed at how many comments like, ah, I've never heard of that. That's just amazing. I still get these calls every single week. Right. You know, so yeah, we can all work together to get the word out and we all can be professionals in the space to help grow that. Absolutely. And the pie. The pie. Amen. We'll do that. And the pie. She. Yeah. Absolutely. It is. That's awesome. All right. Listen, guys, I know you're busy, and it's Friday. So we want to let you guys go get it done. And I guess go catch up with the masters, right? Scott. Correct. All right. Any predictions, by the way? Huh? But right now, on air prediction, yeah, on air prediction, I'm going to go with Justin Thomas. Whoa. All right. All right. Yeah. Throwing that out there. All right. Right. Fair enough. Second. There you go. That'd be good. That'd be good. How many is Dickerson got to? Well, he was one back to start today. No. I mean, how many green jackets does he have? Oh, yes. Yes. Three. And by the way, if he did win, he would be. He'd break the record of the oldest major champion. Well, good for him. Good for him. Yeah. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. before. And I just want to quickly remind you if that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased loans, you need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase business for you. Well, good news. Our mortgage marketing pro membership helps loan officers like you close more loans without the hassle of chasing agents or cold calling. 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