Ep. 129 - What's Really Working Today in Real Estate Marketing?

In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with real estate agents is essential for success. However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge. With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections. Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Coghill is a must-read. This has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals. And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business. To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy of the case study today. You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too. Don't miss out. Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute, our number one source for truth in mortgage marketing. Hey listeners, what's up? Your humble host, Jeff Zimper, welcome to this episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio Podcast coming at you fast and furious from Las Vegas, Nevada. If you're ever out here visiting, hit me up. Let me know. Maybe we have time to hook up, connect, and I don't know. So a bunch of jumping off the stratosphere or whatever it is that you're into. All right, so I want to get back to something I've been doing for a while and give a shout out to those that are leaving me a review on the podcast. If you're new here, appreciate you. If you're a veteran, you've been here for a while and you haven't yet left a review on the podcast, greatly appreciate you do. That just helps me reach more loan officers. Give a shout out to my man, Ethan, who's got one of the best reviews I think I've seen in a long time, Ethan, this was just posted on, gosh, just the other day, July 14th. Ethan says, I love mowing because of this podcast. I assume he means mowing the lawn. I look forward to the show every week and listen in while I mow. I'm in the second year of business and this keeps me on edge and pushing so that I can be my best and support my family. Thank you for your relevant and quality content. Ethan, thank you, man. Thank you for listening while mowing. If you haven't done so yet, hit me up on Facebook, give me your address, give me your t-shirt size. I'm going to send you out podcast swag box with some good stuff in it. That same goes for you, anybody else who's interested in receiving some podcast swag, follow those instructions and then email me podcast at mortgagemarketingradio.com. You can always just email me for any reason there. If you've got a question, you've got a special guest or a topic you want me to cover, I will definitely do so. Okay, so this episode like all episodes is brought to you by the mortgage marketing pro membership. What do we do there? Look, are you looking for ways to get found, get noticed and get attention and get referrals from real estate agents? Are you looking to adapt, survive and thrive, the digital real estate shift? We're helping our loan officer members do both of those things at the same time. The fastest, most efficient, most proven way to quickly accelerate your agent relationships and referrals by way of teaching agent classes. We provide for you done for you turnkey agent classes, tools and resources to do that and provide you access to self-paced learning modules and tutorials that covers everything in the digital marketing personal branding space, whether it's Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, whatnot. It's all in there for you. Want to learn more? Go to mortgagemarketing.pro and check out the brief video that we put up for you there. Maybe you heard my previous episode with Shiny Morris. She closed over a million dollars in loans in less than 90 days simply by teaching agent classes. If you want to hear her story, well, you can go listen to the podcast episode number 127. Okay, so my special guest for this week is somebody that I've known for quite a long time. At least 10 years, I can't remember, right, because my memory doesn't go that far back. But my special guest is Michael Helixin, who is Michael Helixin, while he's consistently while he was an agent, consistently listed and sold over 100 homes per month and at one point, he and his team had over 750 listings in active and pending status. Guys, a rock star, quality human being as well, today is the founder and president of club wealth coaching and consulting unique in the industry because every member, every club wealth coach has sold more real estate than the agents or brokers. They coach. It's got over 60 coaches on his team. The reason why I wanted to ask Michael here is because there's been a lot of noise going back and forth about the future of real estate agents is cold, calling dead and door knocking and, you know, you need to be online to do and succeed business and all these wonderful things that people say that have to be done or this isn't working or that isn't working or Zillow's the enemy and Zillow's trying to put you out of business as a real estate agent. Here's the thing, guys, I want you to share this episode with your real estate agents, but I also want you to listen to it because we are covering both camps. We are covering real estate agents, right? How to be a modern agent, how to survive and thrive. If you're considering looking at paid leads, online portal leads, we have a nice frank conversation around portal leads and Zillow leads and how and when does that fit in your business. You're an originator who's looking to add more value to real estate agents and position yourself for the future and not be so solely vested in agents as your main source of business. This is an episode for you and there's some great resources for you to connect to. As we talk about in this episode, there's links in the show notes for all of that and for loan officers you listening, we are going to do a special training event with Michael as a part two of this session because Michael has a deep, deep obviously presence and understanding of the real estate agent dynamic mindset and the loan officer dynamic in partnering with real estate agents and how to actually understand the agent mindset, how to truly add value, how to get noticed and how to truly add value, build a referral based, have a percentage of your business be referral based from top producing realtors. Michael's one, Michael's one specialty is working with real estate teams. So if you're looking at all at going after real estate teams as an originator to accelerate your growth, this is going to be the training for you. Now we don't have a date yet set for this master class if you all about how to attract and capture real estate teams and understand the mindset of real estate agents. So if you're interested in being notified of when we host that class, which is going to mean no cost for that class, you can go to mortgagemarketinginstitute.com forward slash club wealth. That's mortgagemarketinginstitute.com forward slash club wealth and also put a link in the show notes so you can get on the RSVP list for when Michael and I host that additional special master class for you. All right. So that said, that's enough. Let's get into this week's show. Right on. Thanks for having me on, Jeff. My pleasure. So good to reconnect with you as we were talking right before we hit record. I think you and I have known each other gosh, like 10 years. And we've stayed connected through social media and all that kind of stuff. And I love the good stuff you're doing in the real estate world, helping agents succeed and become better agents and better people, I think is what I'm also noticing as a result. So hats off to you for the listeners, anything you want to tell us personally about yourself, you know, your version of who Michael Helixen is and what's he's all about. Well, yeah, I mean, it's not much to say, sold real estate for a little bit, sold a couple of houses. Don't be, don't be all like modest and stuff and I've mentioned this in the actual formal introduction that you sold over 100 homes per month when you were rocking it. Yeah. And we actually had over 750 listings and active and pending status with 16 agents on the team. So how do you do that, man? 750 listings. And this was going back how long roughly? I was sort of in at our peak. We were in 2011, 2010, actually, end of 2010. So about 50% of my business was RIO. So other 50 was our, it was retail. Yeah. Just did a ton of both. So I would go out, you know, and I'd take, you know, 50 to 75 retail listings a month. That's just me not counting the team members. Right. And that was just going on mom and pop appointments and that wasn't counting the RIO. And then our guys, we had a really good listing agents on the team. I had four listing agents on the team. Yep. The weak ones were taken 10 to 15 listings a month. They're really good ones. And I'd say, I mean, I'd obviously tell you in cheek, right? I mean, that was weak for our team, but that was, that's really good, right? For most agents in. And then our really, really good ones. We had a couple that were, you know, 18 to 21 listings a month. And so they were crushing it. It was just what a great environment, right? I mean, just, you know, we always, we always tease and we say that, you know, Eagles don't flock with turkeys. But it's true. I started thinking about, you know, when you get in that environment, you've got people producing at that high level and they're that excited about what they're doing. And it's unstoppable. It's really, you know, you develop a level of momentum that truly it's really tough to stop. Yeah, 100%. So, I appreciate that backgrounder. And I had you here, obviously, because of your firsthand in-depth knowledge about the current real estate market. And by the way, as mentioned in both the intro and the outro, the reason why I think you're one of the most appropriate people to have in this discussion is you're also the founder and president of club wealth, which is my, my understanding, one of the largest coaching and consulting companies in the real estate space. Anything you want to say about that, real quick? Well, so we're number one in the team space. We work with agents at all levels, whether they're a, you know, solo agent or a team. But, you know, if you look at some of the bigger coaching companies, you know, without mentioning any names, Glom Terry, you know, those kind of guys. When you start looking at some of those companies, they'll have like 10 times as many clients as we do. But our clients represent more transactions as a group than their clients do. So it's, we've got hundreds of clients with thousands of people on their team. But the number of transactions are, it's pretty incredible. But that's because we've really embraced and we really teach the team model. Yeah. It matters. You know, it makes a difference. And so a typical agent for us is going to do, you know, a typical team leader for us is going to do between two and five hundred transactions a year. Yeah. You know, we've got several that do a lot more network. I mean, we've got people that are doing several, you know, well, some of our brokerages are doing thousands of transactions. Right. Right. That's incredible. And also before I forget, you are the co-author of world class buyer agent. Make more money balance. There it is. Holding it up. More money balanced life for tire wealthy. That you co-author with with some of, I think, your most successful coaches and, you know, other rural states. So stay tuned because we're going to talk to you about how to get your hands on that book and a kind of a special little mini training. Michael and I have agreed to do just moments ago to help you loan officers better understand the mindset of real estate agents and partner with them successfully. So we're going to come back to that. All right. Now, as you know, why I have you here because I've been spending some time in the in the various groups online and all that kind of jazz. And you know, I talked about this like there's a lot of different opinions in the market and the future of real estate agents. So I want to, I brought you here. The premise is this is I, you know, my tagline for this podcast is truth in mortgage marketing. But we're evolving into real estate as well. So how do I enter this conversation? Where do I start? Because I start with how do you respond to people that say things like cold calling is dead. And I don't know if you've ever seen any of the hate mongers in certain groups about agents who do or knock. Oh, yeah. You know, so you're working with lots of agents. High producing teams. You have your thumb on the pulse. Michael, is all that stuff dead and gone? Not even a little remotely. Not even a little bit. It's funny. I was just having a conversation with a really top producing agent today about this very topic. And she said to me, she says, she says, you know, it's it really feel like it feels like the basics are coming back. They're making a comeback and they're working. The old school stuff is really working again. And we had a good laugh over it because it is. And it's not just it's not just her perception or her feeling. It really is. And you think about, you know, you're going to be very careful. A lot of people are so caught up in there. There's two. There's two kind of camps that most people fall into. Right. Well, there's three really. There's the online. Everything's got to be, you know, digital blah, blah, blah. And don't get me wrong. We do a ton of stuff online. We're heavy on social. We're heavy on. We buy leads from all kinds of we do all kinds of stuff from a lead generation sample. We really are firm believers that you've got to have a really diverse flow of leads coming into your business. So, okay, so you get this digital camp. Then you've got this referral camp. And it's all referrals all the time. And all I do is work with referrals. And don't get me wrong. I'm all about referrals. Heck, when I was selling real estate, I was doing 192 to 196 transactions a year by referral. But that was only 12.2% of my business. Right. So it was this much of my business. But I do believe in it. And I do, you know, we help people grow their referral based business as well. So we're believers. But it's not enough. Right. Just like digital is not enough. Referrals aren't enough. And both of those camps tend to not prefer the traditional sources. We're talking open houses, door knocking, farming. You know, all these other things that work really well to bring business in. And that also help you develop momentum and marketplace where you can really start to brand yourself. Which is a whole other topic. And you need a certain level of momentum before branding even matters. Right. So once you develop that momentum through a lot of these other things and the others, then all of a sudden you can start to develop that momentum. So as an example, here's the concern that I have. Let's type out referrals. Referral based business six years ago made up 61% of the average agents business. 61%. That's a big number. Right. Five years later. So a year ago now that number had dropped to 44%. It's now down to 41% nationwide. 41% of the average agents business comes from repeat referral sphere of influence type clients. Right. And that includes past clients. Why has that number dropped so substantially? Well, one of the reasons why is 92% of buyers now start their search online. And 72% of those work with the first agent they come in contact with. And so what's happened is agents have lost the art of proactively going after people. They've lost the art of making calls. They've lost the art of falling up with people. They've lost the art of converting those calls into into appointments and therefore transactions. And they and they've begun to rely solely on purchasing leads from portals like Zillow, like realtor.com. And again, we buy leads from portals too. Love it, right? Right. But they've lost the skill of marketing. They feel like, think about direct mail farming. Oh my gosh. I mean, here's the things that work that people don't know work because they've never made the investment it. And so long story short, no, none of that stuff's dead. What's dead is the skill set of most agents. So how did we get there? How did the skill sets become dead? What took what replaced store took us away from focusing on those skills? Well, now you're going to make me come back to these. Well, the enemy conversation. But it's not Zillow. It's not their fault. I'm not going there with it. Don't get me wrong. Well, no, I get it was just so we kind of it's like we're used to being fed off the tea or whatever of Zillow. Or if you're if that's where you're leading to. It was too easy for us to get access to high intent leads. That's exactly what it's what's gone on. And so and not only that now. So first of all, there's three things, right? There's three main components that I don't care what business you're in. It can be real estate. It can be mortgage. It could be pumping septic tanks. I don't care what business you're in. You've got to do three things at a high level lead generation lead follow up and lead conversion. Got to do those three things at a high level. If you don't you don't have a business, right? So that said. What's happened is these online portals, realtor and Zillow, right? Those two figured it out early on. They got really smart about it and they basically took over lead generation for a lot of agents in the country. I'm talking massive market share. Once they develop that and they got that stream of income coming in, then what they figured out next was, hey, what are agents now? What do you know? Because they suck at lead generation. So we're going to fix that and then we're going to charge about 24. Then what they figured out is, oh my gosh, agents also suck lead follow up. In fact, they're even worse at that than they were at the lead generation. And so now they come in the end and they say, well, we're going to solve that with op city and with our call centers. Whether it's a concierge or op city. All of a sudden they're saying, well, we're going to solve the lead follow up problem for these agents and we're going to charge them for that. And what's happened is the skill set of the agents is consistently dropping other resources have come in to fill that gap, which is creating that downward pressure on commissions and more so than the consumer. The consumer is not the reason for the downward pressure on the commissions. The lack of skill of agents is what's creating the downward pressure on commissions. Lack of skill of agents in demonstrating why they should command a higher fee. That too, yes, but that's not where it starts where it starts is the lack of skill of agents that lead generation lead follow up. Because now they become so dependent on these other things they've forgotten how to do things for themselves. Now by the time they get out to the appointment, they don't see themselves as valuable as the agents of old, right? And when I say the agents of old, I'm talking about the agents that have been around a while that are doing 204 or 500, 600,000 transactions a year. They understand their value, right? So think about this. You've heard this before, Jeff. I know you know this from all that you've done in your career. And some have heard this, but everybody needs to write this down. This is this is you got to remember this price is only an issue in the absence of value. Right. 100% of most agents is not only do they not know how to articulate their value. They don't even see their value to begin with. And you know why? Because they're bringing less and less and less value to the transaction because they're not doing lead generation. They're not doing lead follow up. They're barely doing lead. Yeah. No, I mean, I'm just thinking about that. The phrase that popped in my head, you know, like the role of an agent has changed, right? Because the consumers in control because of tech. You know, your role isn't, hey, find me a house. We don't need you to do that. I don't need an agent or I don't even need an agent to show me a house in some markets. That's right. But people ask the question, are real estate agents going away? You know, are they going to uberize real estate? And I don't believe that's going to happen. So then that's looking at my notes here. What will the agents of, I don't know, 2022 look like, right? In five years. Well, I think that in 2022, the vast majority of agents, so let's back up. Let's back up to 2002. Okay. In 2002, how many teams were out there in 2002? Oh, yeah, yeah. A lot less. Yeah. Very few. Very few. It's pretty like, you know, we did our team for about a decade at that point. Actually, just dying quite a decade. And we, you know, we were one of the very, very few in the country. By 2012, teams were starting to kind of catch on, but they still weren't prolific. Yeah. Fast forward to 2019. Everywhere you go. Yes. And teams are taking over. They have bandwidth. They have budgets. They have systems. They have processes. And it's really like a co-op for agents, right? Because you get all these agents on the team that pull their resources. They get to focus on what they're best at. They don't have to do the things they're not great at. They don't have to manage the administrative team. They don't have to do the administrative work. They don't have to worry about the lead gen and all the systems behind that. All they get to do is their role. And so, and they get to participate in a greater, a greater number of commissions. Maybe a smaller portion, but a greater number of them. So they end up making a lot more money at the end of the day. Right. 2022. What does this look like? I say the days of the solo agent are going to be all but over. And I don't mean that there won't still be solo agents out there. But the days of the successful solo agent being able to compete with the technology and the systems and the tools and the. And the marketing power that a team has are going to be virtually gone. And so if you're not on a team or building a team in 2022, you're going to struggle. Hey. So are you saying then that we're going to sheets, you know how they say what the average realtor does what four deals a year or something? Are you going to see that kind of go away at the bigger fish or eating that up? Yeah. They are. And what's what's happening is that and it's this happened in 2007 to 2011 when the market shifted. Right. You saw a lot of agents get out of business. We went from a think back then we were in a million three went down to about 700,000 agents. Now we're at what a million and a half million seven somewhere in there. Nobody really knows but call it that. And, you know, we'll probably drop back down to a million agents. You know, and maybe the less that you know I was talking to a buddy mine that runs several major corporation, you know, major real estate entities. And, and he's a believer that we may be down to as low as 800,000 real estate agents in the next three to five years. And that's possible. That's very possible. That said, what's really interesting is the shift. And it's really it's a it's a socioeconomic shift in real estate that it's very similar to what happens in class society in in in in class society. Right. You've got you've got this middle class on real estate and some of these people in this middle class of real estate are starting to figure out how to build teams. They're starting to develop tools and they're gaining a little bit of momentum and they're starting to build market share. They're starting to get some dollars behind them. And then along comes the Zillow or realtor.com and they say, hey, we're out of leads in your market in our we've got a waiting list in your market. And so we can't say leads, but then the agent reminds them, hey, you remember that, you know, half a million dollars I spent with you last year. And then all of a sudden, realtor.com says, oh, look at that. A spot just opened up. Right. That's what happens because you've got such buying power on these teams. The solo agent can't compete. Not only that because of the systems of processes, your conversion rates are higher. And here's the next to mark my words. This is what's going to happen next. Zillow is going to figure out realtor.com is going to figure it out. And I can tell you they're going to figure out because I'm coaching them on some of it. But you but I'll tell you that what's going to happen next is they're going to figure out that just like ask the manager. Ask management companies, Fannie Mae nations all those big banks that did back in the day. These guys are going to figure out that I'm only going to send business to agents that I know are going to succeed with that business. They're going to get the conversion rates that we need to get. Right. And Zillow's kind of done that already with kind of the new version of their program, right? Where there's a quality of service. Yeah. Yeah. Look, quality of service. Make no mistake about it. Quality of service to them. It's important. But it's not as important as quantity. They want to see numbers. They got their shareholders don't give a rip about quality of service. They're shareholders care about how much what's my dividend this month. That's what they care about. And so what they're going to look at is why would I send a lead to this solo agent over here that's not getting to the lead quickly. That's got to that's literally less than 50% likely to even follow up with the lead, which is the current statistic by the way. It's ridiculous. When I can send it to this team that's virtually 100% guaranteed they're going to follow up with lead. And their conversion rate is far superior than that solo agent. This is where it's going. And they're tracking this stuff like you can't leave. All right. So so seniors were talking about Zillow right that let's let's keep this thread going for a little bit. You know, I think this was under the premise of is Zillow the enemy. So we got the I buyer thing happening and you know, then there's. The leads and you know this very well though. So the people I read a statistic. I think it was from Zillow that every five minutes they get somebody on their website asking, you know, entering their house to be bought by Zillow. And of course, as you may you may know the numbers better than me. I think they only take currently anyways. What? I mean less than double digits of those of those offers. It's not a lot. It's not a lot. It's under 5% because they don't meet the right parameters. And then what I look at that is everybody's like banging on Zillow and his Zillow sucks and all this. But correct me from wrong. Aren't isn't Zillow then taking those leads from the I buyers right and doling them back out to real estate agents? Sure. Of course they are. So how is Zillow the enemy then? And I agree with you. Zillow is not for real estate agents. We'll talk about mortgage in a minute, but for real estate agents. They're not the enemy and in fact, you know what the enemy is? The enemy is ignorance and slothless. That's the enemy. Oh, you're smart. If you want to make money in this industry, it's easy to do. You just got to get smart and you've got to start working your butt off. And that's something that's lost on most agents. Then they act like, oh, I work really hard because I put 60 hours or 80 hours a weekend. What do you do with that 60, 80 hours a week? Yeah. Most of it. Show me what you actually did in the last 60, 80 hours. So no, Zillow is not the enemy. In fact, if anything, Zillow is doing us a favor as an industry. And I would say the same about real estate companies. Why? Because they're forcing us to get better. They're forcing us as an industry to sharpen our saw, learn new skills, and get better. And the agents that do that, the agents that embrace it, they're going to make a ton of money. Look at the travel agents industry. Look at travel agents. And by the way, real estate is not going to be as easy to disrupt as the travel agents. No. Or taxis or any of that. Look at the difference. You're talking about the largest financial transaction of people's lives. It's a very different bargain. Right. That being said, even in an industry like travel, which was very easy to disrupt, there are still travel agents out there making huge dollars. And they have even stronger businesses than they did before, you know, orbits and all the travel hosties and all these online travel agencies came onboard. So I think we should, you know, let's back up. It's not Zillow's fault that we gave our data away. We chose to do that, right? Not with something that the real estate industry as a whole said, we're going to make the data more available to everyone. Great. You know what? If that ship has sailed, data is gone. Can't bring it back. Don't blame Zillow for taking advantage of that. All there are is a bunch of guys got together said, hey, get this. Here's an opportunity. Let's capitalize on it. You're just jealous. You didn't figure it out first. I'm not saying you, Jeff, I'm saying. No, no, yeah, yeah. Well, I kind of am upset. I didn't figure it out, but I'm not rich, pardon, you know. Exactly. Okay, so I don't want to leave the loan officers listening, hanging. What is your then angle on? Because this is where I don't know necessarily where I stand. I do believe that anybody who's like I've talked to the loan officers who are spending money on Zillow leads, typically in a copay situation with real estate agents, because some LLs feel like beholden to that. You know, I've talked to one LL a couple of weeks ago, you know, who basically told me, he's like, yeah, I'm worried about Zillow. They bought a mortgage company. There's no doubt they're going to continue to grow and expand and try and grab that mortgage. But his issue is, well, I can't give up that thing with the agent because if I do, I'm going to lose the business. What do you have to add to that? So first and foremost, it's probably right. That's probably not far from the truth. That being said, you've got to educate yourself on how to bring in business in other ways. You've got to stop relying on these portals for business. And I'm not saying that you don't take advantage of it. Look, if the ROI is there, buy it. As long as the ROI makes sense, go for it. But you better figure out some other ways to bring in business. And you better make sure that there's no lead source in your portfolio that brings in more than 25% of your business. None. If I'm buying any business, anybody in wise person that goes out and buys businesses, there's lots of people out there flipping businesses, PE firms on us. Anytime they see a business that has more than 25% of their business coming from a single source, they're concerned, in fact, for most of them, it's less than 5% is where they want to be. So you've got to diversify that lead flow. And if you learned better how to market, if you did a better job of getting the consumers before they get the zillowareal.com, guess what? It wouldn't be an issue. So we're going to pick up the pace of questions because you're getting me amped up here. So how can I, as a realtor or loan officer, beat zillow to the customer? First of all, partner closer with your agents. Okay. Stop becoming a tool for your agents and become a partner for them. Stop being beholden to your agents and be in business with your agents. And that's something we can, and we talked about that earlier. We should do an entire webinar on our podcast on exactly how do you do that? But when you really are a partner with the agent, let's call it, what is the agents are doing? Some of the agents, and I'm talking about the bigger teams in particular, right? And really, let's talk about agents that are doing at least 75 transactions a year, but you start getting into 75 and more transactions a year, you start getting into a group of people like kind of know a little better what they're doing. You get into the 150 plus transactions a year, now we start to get good. The higher you go up the food chain, the more they're going to expect of you, but more likely, the more likely they are to want to partner with you. And when I say partner, I mean, make you a part of the team. Exactly. And that isn't necessarily, although it could be part of it, just about ad spend for leads and that kind of stuff. That's right. Although I've often seen that it is part of that when you get into the larger teams, but the difference is is that what they probably value equally, in some cases more, is the service that they're going to get for their clients. Oh, well, let's talk about that for a second. Well, okay, go ahead. That's an expectation. So I love it when a lot of people say, oh, you know, I deliver the best service. I might take better care of them. I'm going to be there when you need me. Dude, of course you are. That's expected. Like, that's not going above and beyond. That's not exceeding the expectation. That's meeting the expectation. Now, to your point, though, writing a check is not enough. Like, if I'm in a partner with an L.O., writing, I can get a lot of people to write me a check. I don't need to be talking about, I'm going to expect your money, because if we're going to go out and we're going to spend all this money, and I mean, I've got agents that are spending millions of dollars at least, top buyer of realtor.com leads in the country, spends five million dollars a year on realtor.com leads. Do you think his lender kicks in? You bet they do. And they should, right? Because these are leads that we're both getting. Here's the difference. Most agents want you to cut them a check with no accountability and with no participation. What should happen is, you should be involved. Those leads come in. You should have access to those leads as well. You should be calling those leads as well. You should be going to the team's meeting, to the team call lights, to the team huddles. You should be involved in all of that stuff, and you should be a full and complete part of the team, just like any agent on that team. And when that's happening, there's a big difference between that and how I wrote you a check, send me business. And I would never write somebody a check that couldn't show me that they have a track record of doing business. Of converting those leads, for example. And not just converting the leads, but directing the traffic. You want me to cut you a check. You want me to, I'm going to get a certain amount of business. Now, you're going to be careful. Don't screw up and start violating rest plus here, right? We're not talking about that. But the reality is, I've got to have a track record of really putting that loan officer front and center or it's not fair of me to ask them for a dime. Yeah, yeah. I agree. I love that premise, 100%. I've tried to coach some L.O.s on that. And they think that all the agent is looking for is a check and you're right. I think some of the lower producing agents is looking for the check. And that's where you need to have the honest talk. And I always try and coach L.O. a little bit to say, hey, why don't we kind of two things? You can maybe call BS on this if you want. I mean, one is, I don't want to get down the red hole and scripting and everything. But basically, it's like, I'm open to doing that. However, I think we should walk before we run. Part of my value add is not just co-marketing with you. Whatever, it's the, here's my goal. Is I want to create a referral out of every transaction we work together. So let me map out for you how my customer experience blows the socks off your customers and generates a referral and puts you in a good light, you know, edifies you and makes you look like a hero as well. Is that legit at all from the agent perspective or is that BS? Depends on the agent. I think it's great for the tier two agent. I think a lot of tier two agents would buy that. And they'd be like, okay, that's great. That sounds good. You start getting into the guys that are doing two, three, four, five hundred transactions a year, they're going to be able to answer my question. Because remember, they're all high D's, right? I mean, they are. They're, you know, they're high D's. They have high expectations. They have no time for BS. They don't want to screw around. If I, if I talked to you about let's, you know, let's get down to brass tax. Let's have you contribute. You know, our expectation is, you know, we're going to provide these resources. We're going to make you a part of the team and in exchange, in being a full and complete part of the team, you're going to participate in the cost of acquiring those clients. If in response to that, I get an answer that's anything other than, okay, what does that look like? And then my concern is now, I don't want to be pushing a card up bill. I don't want, it's like pushing rope up a hill, right? So what I want to know is, and I'm okay with a lender coming back to me and saying, hey, look, all right, I get that. But I have to get ROI out of it. I as lender, I have to get ROI. And if I'm not getting ROI, it's not a win-win for both of us. Totally get it, right? That's what you want to get to the big producers. You got to punch them in the face. And they're okay with it. They can take a punch, punch me in the face. Tell me you got to get ROI. Great! All right, now let's talk about how we're going to get it together. The referrals, that's all nice and warm and fuzzy. And that's great stuff on the side. And I do want that, I love that. I think that will help us out. But that's not to mean the payoffs. The meat and potatoes is, we're going to be buying leads. It's going to take 12 to 18 months to convert most of those leads, right? Because online leads take a long time to convert their leader and their cycle. But if it's a Facebook lead, a paper, a quickly lead, whatever, I'm 12 to 18 months out. So, we together need to understand, not only what the investment is going to be for both of us, but we also need to understand the cash conversion cycle for those leads. How long to take me? If I spend a dollar today, how long to take me to get ROI on that dollar? Now, so as long as we're real with each other about that, and I've got your commitment that you're going to get into the database, and either you or someone on your team, we're going to be making calls to that same database that my team is going to be making calls to, and we're going to be cross-endourcing each other. And we're going to be cross-endourcing each other. Now we can talk when, when, anything short of that, it's a waste of time for both of us. Yeah. And was that you talking there or the realtor? I mean, sorry, the L.O. or this both, okay? Yeah, so hopefully everybody should be having that conversation. Because if I be L.O. And I've got a level of expectations of that relationship. Here's the problem. Most L.O. is just like most agents are expecting way too much out of short term and not enough out of long term. Right, right. So how would you then just take that out one more thread there in terms of like coaching the L.O. who's listening? What's a timeline they should have around seeing R.O.I. or return on promise or activity, you know what I mean? Well, they're, okay, those are very different things. Yeah, yeah. So first of all, R.O.I., you're not going to like my answer on this. The L.O.s are going to hate me for saying this. R.O.I., you're really talking a minimum of six to 12 months before you get any substantial R.O.I. on that type of relationship. Now, activity, very different thing. And it's not even just the activity, it's activity and it's momentum, right? You should see a momentum start to develop as you build that pipeline. And that should happen within 30 to 60 days. You should start seeing some of that momentum start to build. And so, but you, if everybody's, whether it's the L.O. or the real estate agent, if either of them is expecting R.O.I. too soon, they will both fail. Right, right. And just to be clear by momentum, you mean, like you said, hey, as an L.O., I'm invited to the team meetings. I'm part of it. I'm getting access to the CRM, whatever. And I'm getting leads. And I'm able to call those leads. And I'm having conversations. And I'm setting up meetings. And I'm taking apps. And I'm pulling credit on some. And, you know, we've got some people that are out looking. I'm doing pre-approval letters for a handful of them. There's a lot of things that lead to an actual closing that happened long before that closing happens. I need to start seeing some of those things somewhere along this process before I, you know, before I start believing that, yeah, this is going to work out long term. And it really all starts with, if I'm writing a check, how quickly am I getting leads? Mm-hmm. Right. How soon do I, if I'm, if I'm writing this check for whatever amount of money it is, let's say it's, for, let's say it's just two grand a month. Yeah. So I'm spending two grand a month to share in this agent's portal leads. Well, portal leads turn on pretty quick. Within 60 days, I should be getting leads and I should be calling and having conversations with people. Right. And I want to get those leads fast. Because the best thing that agent and I can do is get on the phone with them immediately and be very tenacious about the follow-up. And here's an, oh, man, here's another good one. Here's a pet peeve of mine. Oh, my God. I think I'm crazy for this. Your LOs are going to crucify me for this. But you want to know what the biggest mistakes agents make. And you've got to be willing to slow roll the process to get what you want in the long term. Okay. All right. Too often, give me an example. You ever been on blind date, Jeff? Thankfully, not for a long time. Okay, but at one point in your life, you were on a blind date, right? There's one very specific one I tell all the time. Yes, go ahead. I can't wait to hear this. Let me just ask it. If you knocked on the door, girl opens the door and you dive right in for a kiss. What's likely to happen? Oh, slap me in the face. Yeah. Game over, right? Like, okay. And so here's the problem. Most agents and LOs are trying to make out with the consumer on the front porch before they even freaking took them to dinner. Take me to dinner. Take me to a movie. Buy me some fires. Do something to bring me value. But don't freaking try and make out with me on the porch. Drug dealers are smarter than this. Think about this. Drug dealers are smarter than most LOs in real estate agents. They're stupid, right? Here they are. They're in a business where they're dangerous to them. It kills their customers. Don't fake. Kill them. They can get arrested. There's all kinds of things that can go wrong with this. But here's what they know that real estate agents and LOs don't. First one's free. Then you got to pay. Think about this for a second. Because here's what most real estate agents do. The very first thing agents want to do before they'll go to someone's houses is they want to get a pre-approved. That's right. Uh-huh. Worst move on the planet. Sales prevention 101. You just lost my audience. Dude. What's this? But I'm going to make your audience a ton of money by helping them understand why this is important. All right, bring it. The agent cannot build rapport over the phone. Particularly not when they start expecting people to jump through hoops before they'll give them the service. They deserve. We're in a service industry. And yet we've forgotten how to serve people. I call you up. I ask you for the price of the home first thing you say. Are you pre-approved? Are you freaking kidding me? I say I want to go look at the house. You say I got to talk to your lender first. What? I'm just going to call the next guy who's not going to make me jump through that hoop. Right. Don't make me jump through your hoops. Now that being said, I'm going to give your people a script. I want everyone lo and officer on this call to get this script. And every agent needs to write this down. There's a script we use that will get the consumer to want to talk to the loan officer almost every time. All right. Virtually every time. You'd have to be a moron to say no to this quite. I thought that was the start of the script. Go ahead. No, that's the start of the script with the agents. No, I can't. But here's the deal. So first and foremost, I get that person on the phone. The number one thing I have to do is I'm scheduling a time to show them the house. I don't care if they're qualified. I don't care if they ever qualify. I got to show them the house because here's what I could do. If I treat them with respect, and that other agents didn't treat them with, or that other L.O.s didn't treat them with. And if I just set up a time for them to get what they want, which is the price to go see the house, or if I just give them what they want, I have a way better chance of taking that next step. If I want that kiss at the end of the day, I got to start off by bringing her freaking flowers. Right. So that said, once I have set the appointment on the same phone call even, as long as I've set the appointment, now I've earned the right to ask the following question. Okay. Jeff, if they could save you 10 to 20,000 dollars on your mortgage, would you be interested in just chatting with one of our lenders? Sure. Why not? What's the rest? What kind of moron would ever say no to that? Yeah. Yeah. Right? Unless they're married to a lender or something. Which in that case, it's not a lead for the lender anyway. They've lost nothing. Right? And so, but the key is it's switching. It's like Simon Sinek. What does Simon Sinek talk about? It's not that the conversation is wrong. Instead, it's backwards. People are starting from the wrong point. You have to start with why? Right? So what is it they want? What they want is to go see the house. Yeah. Give them that. And then that when you ask that other question in a different way, you know, if you use that script, I'll give it to you again. If they could save you 10 to 20,000 dollars on your mortgage, would you be interested in chatting with one of our lenders? Super low key, no pressure. Nobody's going to say no to that. But when you say, hey, I got to have you talked to my lender before I could take out and show houses. Roadblock. Right? Like, that's, that's just, I don't want to talk to you. You're throwing up roadblocks. You're trying to dictate to me. I'm an adult. Don't tell me what I got to do. I'm 21 years old, man. I got to. All right. Let me ask you a different question then. And that's great script, by the way. Thank you for sharing that. Do you think that consumer behavior is shifting or will shift so that more buyers will go lender first, realtor slash home second? No. Because we want nobody gets online in their pajamas and says, let's look at loans. Right. I asked that again, because it goes under kind of the context of our discussion today, which is you see a lot of people like I saw one company loan depot, for example, right? Talked about some data that they have that showed consumer behavior with shifting. And I'm like, where? Yeah. I don't believe. So one of one of my buddies got in Chris Ellery. You might know Chris. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. You guys super smart guy. Let me tell you, man, that guy comes from a real stick background. Yeah. Right. It's not the consumers. The process starts with the, well, let me back up. The process starts with the desire to look at homes. Right. You hear? Either desire or the situation. Right. Somehow they bump into a home online like, wow, that's called wonder what it would be like to move. Right. And sitting in their underwear watching TV sitting on their laptop. Right. I mean, that's literally where this happens. And so their first thought is not, how do I get loaned? You got to remember people, they don't, they don't think that far ahead. They want what they want. They want the house. They don't realize, oh, I got to give it a loan to do that. So give what they want. Give them pretty pictures of pretty houses. That's where it starts. And once you get that hook set, you know, once you get them interested, then you can kind of get the conversation started. And once you get them far enough down the path, you can ask them for permission to connect a couple of letters. No, I don't think that's going to change. I, in fact, honestly, I can't imagine that changing anytime ever. That may be wrong. But. What do you think about the premise of the, the premise of the loan officer running house ads, like Facebook ads, for example, right? And kind of trying to be the source of leads for real estate agents. As long as they're not practicing real estate without a license, which they have to very careful of in various states. I don't want them in to get any kind of trouble that way. I'm all about the, the loan offs are doing anything they can do to get direct consumer. And then you think about this. All right, I'm like, I'm a guy that does 400 transactions a year, let's say. You the lender, you want to get in with me, right? I'm your, I'm your whale, right? I'm the guy you want to get connected with, because I can open doors for you that nobody else can. Sure. You come to me with, well, I'm going to take really good care of your people, and I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to get them to send you referrals. The next guy comes in and says, hey, what? You know, I, I drive a lot of business myself every year. I generate, you know, about 100 transactions a year. I can't guarantee all of it, because I've got other agents I work with that I'm already committed to, but I can, I can, here's what I can tell you. I can, I can guarantee you 10 leads a month from me. And, and on average, we're going to convert at least one of those 10 leads to a transaction. So I can, I can, I can, I can basically, I can pretty much guarantee a 12 transactions a year. And so is that interesting to you? That's a whole different conversation. 12 transactions isn't a lot to a guy that does 400 units a year, but it's something that no other L.O. has told him. Well, also, different conversation. Also, his cost of acquiring that is pretty much nil also. He wrote. Yeah. That's right. So if his average commission, whatever, do that, I'm sure you do the math. 20 grand. That's another 200 grand. I just brought you. That's right. In GCI, you know. That's right. And more important. Here's what I really, it's the numbers. The numbers themselves aren't important. It's what's behind the numbers. It's the intent behind the numbers that is what matters. Yeah. Because what you've shown me is, hey, I'm not coming with my handout. Hey, send me business, send me business. And you know, all this money generating leads just send me business. Because I'm going to take better care of people. I'm going to give them an eighth of a point better on their rate. Like, the agent doesn't care about that. They really know. But when you come to me and you say, look, I want to bring you business. Let me prove it to you. Okay. Now we're talking. Interesting. Yeah, I'm putting this in a context of like my audience, the listeners, and knowing that most people aren't dealing with the mega agents that you're, you know, dealing with, they're talking about the team agents. I, I, they can. And there are those opportunities. But I think we're like, you know, versus here, we're here. You know what I mean? So let me, can I speak to that real quick? I get the start with this. Yeah. Breaking stop it. Why? Why are you dealing with the bottom of the bear? Why are you doing business with the guys that do four transactions a year? Why waste your time with that? When the same amount of time for energy can be put into a team that does 75, 100, 200 transactions a year. Yeah, here's the, here's the, here's the, here's the why? Because I don't have those systems in place to, to, to offer the league. Okay. Watch this. When I was, I got, so I started selling real estate in 1991. I was, I was in high school. So I got, I got, I got, I turned 18 in January. Got my license in March. And by graduation in June, I was the number one agent in my office. I was out taking listings at eight and ten percent. At a time when nobody was taking anything over seven percent. Every agent in my office, freaking while not every. But most of the agents in my office hated my guts. There's no reason I should have been able to do that. But you know why I did that? Because I didn't have the hang-ups. I didn't care that I didn't have systems in place. I didn't know that I didn't have systems in place. I didn't know what I didn't know. I wasn't afraid to ask for the business. Stop making freaking thinking that you've got to have everything perfect before you can go get the business. You know what? I was doing well over a thousand transactions a year. 120 to 180 transactions a month. And you know what? I would way rather have a loan officer come to me and say, look, you know what? I got no systems in place. I'm working my butt off for you. And I'm going to bring you business. I'll give that guy a shot all day long over the guy with all the systems in the world that's all arrogant and thinks that, well, you know, I'm not going to jump through your hoops. I'm not going to, you know, I don't need to prove myself to your team because I'm already doing a bunch of things. I screw that guy. I want the young kid that has no clue what he's doing but will work as freaking butt off and really mold himself to our team and our team's way of doing business. Bring me that guy all day long. So this leads me to kind of getting to wrap this wonderful conversation up. Then what are the skill sets? Then like the loan officer should be working on to diversify. Like you said earlier, 25% max lead source for like if you're 80% agents, okay, as a loan officer, 80% of your business is coming from agents. I'm alone off. What would you advise? I need to start the skill sets. I need to start to develop to survive and thrive this shift here. First of all, ready. I'll rate this down. Ready, fire, aim. Quit trying to make everything perfect. Get comfortable being uncomfortable. And then act as if, right? Just act as if. Just go out there and just act as if you're already. And I don't mean be arrogant. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is tell yourself over and over and over again that you're successful and go be successful. Now, logistically, what are some lead generation sources that I as a loan officer can start really learning how to do at a higher level that will bring value to me into my agents? And by the way, before we go there, stop shifting with refi markets. When the refi market comes around, what happens to most loan officers? They have banned in their agents and they get focused on refi. And then they come back begging the agents for business later on. True that guy. I have no time for that guy. And every time that guy comes knocking on my door in my response to saying, Hey, remember when I was trying to get a hold of you when the refi bloom was happening? And you had no time for me and you weren't interested in the team or contributing? Yeah, screw you. And so first of all, know that. Next, learn and get some new skill sets. Learn how to do an open house where you get 50 to 150 people out to an open house. You want to bring value to an agent that doesn't cost you any money or cost you very, very little. Do that. I'll even tell you exactly how to do it for free. Go to our website. Go to cobalt.com to our blog and scroll down and find the massive open house. This blog, there's an hour long video on exactly how to do it. And a whole checklist on everything you can do that will get you 50 to 150 people out to your open house. Just do that. Call up an agent and say, Hey, how'd you like me to help you get 150 to 150 people out to your next open house? Well, that sounds great. How are you going to do that? I'll show you. Let's go do it together. Start thinking differently. Start bringing value and in ways that the agent can understand because he doesn't think customer service like you're thinking. And I don't want to say they don't care about it. They talk like they care about it. But the reality is what they care about is they got to pay their mortgage next month. How are they going to do that? Right. Right. So I love that at, you know, basically get better at generating business for both you and your referral partners. Yes. And what's your take on the play for nine. I kind of think I know this question, but. Are you an advocate of real estate agents, loan officers, creating a personal brand right showing up with content, video marketing, right? All that kind of jazz independent of one other. Yes. So I don't believe in. So I want them to be very close partners. Right. So they each should go out and be building their brand. Right. But what I don't, what I, yeah. So what I wouldn't say is I wouldn't say have them partner up and have them have a co brand because. I'm not a, I'm not a big believer in an official partnerships, right? Where you, where you, where you co-own an entity. That's, that's a recipe for disaster. But yes, I think that the loan officer should go out and build their brand. And social media is a great way to do that. There's a million other things you can do that don't cost a lot of money that will help with that. But as you build that brand, what do you do? Now you create some, you start bringing in some leads that now you can share with the agents that you work with. So now instead of becoming a parasite, which is the way most agents look at a lot of lenders, right? And I hate to say it, but that's, it's just like consumers think agents are parasites, right? Right. Rather than eating just, you know, sponging off that agent, which I don't care with, bring a little bit of value to the table through, you know, sort of things you can do by creating your own brand. Now when you talk about creating your brand, it is a long-term play. This is not a short-term play. And this is not for a brand new loan officer, right? This is not for somebody that, you know, I've never done a transaction. And I'm going to go ahead and create a brand and all of a sudden I'm going to do a bunch of business. No, that's not how you're going to get business in the beginning. You're going to get business in the beginning because you're going to hustle. Your brand, you know, building your brand, that's going to take 12, 24, 36 months. And it's going to be very, very slow. It's going to take a lot of time. It's going to take eight to 12 months minimum before it starts to pay out anything. And then it's going to take 24 months before it starts being even reasonably worthwhile. And then you start getting 24 plus months into it and you start to realize, wow, that was a good thing I did that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's a long play. And it goes to your point earlier, if there's, you know, people are interested in the short-term sales DNA, basically. It's kind of like I was reading something earlier. Who said this? You know, expecting leads to like respond right out of the gate is like going fishing and expecting fish is just jumping the boat, you know? That's exactly right. Yeah, not going to happen. Well, of course, one of the ways that I'm helping my people to add value to real estate agencies is teaching them how to fish. Yes. Which seems to work well. Agents love that. They respond well. You know, a lot of agents have various levels of comfort level with this digital marketing video, whatever. And if my allows can go teach an agent how to fish, reciprocation, right? That's the different than the usual handout and I got great rates in service. That's right. That's exactly right. Okay, cool. So we have burned through a lot of time, a lot of great conversation. I'm really glad we were able to carve out this time. Just going to get my notes. I think we covered everything. Let's do this. We talked about a couple of different things before we hit record. I want to number one point people to your book who want to get it right away. And the reason why is because I think it's a great gift for real estate agents. For loan officers to give to real estate agents. Yep, there it is. World class buyer agent. Do you in terms of people just want to buy the book themselves? By the way, it's like 400 pages, right? 430 something. I think. Yes. That's well recorded pages. That's huge. There's a cornucopia of ideas in there. Do you want to direct them to Amazon or to the blog for the book? For the book. Just go ahead and you can go to Amazon or you've got a club wealth book.com. Either way, is it club wealth book.com? Is that it? Yeah. Yeah. You got a club of book.com. I don't think you're right to it. Okay. And that'll also share your other books as they come out. We've got some other stuff coming out. Yeah. So all links will be in the show notes as always. So the resources you talk about at your blog is that club wealth.com slash blog. Yep. Okay. So we'll go there. Then part two of this is you and I talked about this a little bit before recording. We didn't have time to get into this session, but we talked about posting a separate class, kind of a masterclass, if you will, about understanding the agent mindset. Yeah. Right? How to show up the right way. How to actually attract agents. How to not be the same as lame approach and actually get an audience with agents like producing agents. Yes. Okay. And by the way, that's the only audience you guys should be looking for. Yeah. Stop trying to get time with with under or non producing agents. It's a waste of your time. Yep. Do some qualifying. Yes. So we are going to also put a link in the show notes about how to take advantage of that. That's going to be an upcoming class. Okay. Michael. Thank you so much for being here, man. I appreciate it. Appreciate it. We have learned a lot. And for any real estate agent who's listening this by way of their loan officer, where would that real estate agent to go learn more about what you're doing with coaching and all that? Well, go to the website. Go to cluboff.com. I mean, there's times we give away more stuff than most people charge for. It's good. I mean, literally, like, I kid you not when you go to the website, every one of our blog posts has, and we've got tons of blog posts on there that have, you know, they're designed to be the authority on that topic, right? So you want to learn how to bring in a referral based business? Great. There's a blog post on that and it goes deep on it and it's dialed in. And we'll give you all the checklist and all that stuff. And it's all free. Just get on there and get the stuff download the checklist and all that. Then for those agents that really want to take it to the next level, if you're, if you're serious, like if you want to get in conversations, we have over 60 coaches at club, often each one of them sells more real estate than the people they coach. We will do once a year. We will do a free 55 minute coaching call with each agent at large, right? So if you're an agent and you want to sit down with a coach, like, let's say you're doing, if you're doing 100 transactions a year, we'll put you on the phone with one of our coaches that does 200 or 300 transactions a year. And they'll sit with you for 55 minutes, doesn't cost anything. It's not a big pitch for coaching or anything like that. And they'll pick apart your freaking business and they'll tell you where you screw it up and where the holes are in your business and how to plug them. And then they'll give you a roadmap for the next 12 months. They'll say, I do this, this, and this in the next 12 months, and you'll double your business. And they're very good at it. Yeah, it's free. And they just go to clubwill.com to inquire about that. Yeah, it's called a strategy session. Strategy session. So you've got a clubwill.com forward slash strategy session. And I don't think you're right to the thing. You can schedule it right there online. Don't even have to talk to anybody. You can literally go right into the calendar there. And it'll, and you tell your production level. And it'll assign you the right coach for that strategy session based on your production level. And it's, I'm telling you, if you just did that once a year. And again, we're open and we're willing to do that for you for free once a year. If you just did that once a year, it'll change your business. Awesome. Well, look, Michael. I know you're busy. Thank you so much for being here. And I look forward to regrouping with you on this next round, this masterclass for the loan officers. And listeners, as always, we appreciate you. If you like this episode, you know what to do. Like us. Love us. Share it up on the web. Leave a review if you feel so inclined. And we will see you on the next one. Bye for now. Thanks for listening to Mortgage Marketing Radio. One more truth in Mortgage Marketing. Get more free training and resources at MortgageMarketingInstitute.com. Hey guys, what's up real quick? You've heard about the Mortgage Marketing Pro membership before. And I just want to quickly remind you of that. You're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased loans. You need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase business for you. Well, good news. Our Mortgage Marketing Pro membership helps loan officers like you close more loans without the hassle of chasing agents or cold calling. Done for you agent classes, expert training videos, a marketing automation platform that automates the entire process for you, everything you need to build your personal brand in your local market, attract and convert agents into referral partners. Plus, done for you proven marketing materials and plug and play content to make promoting your class, getting agents, butts and seeds, partnering with affiliates real easy. But that's not all. You'll also get access to our weekly mastermind calls with top L.O.'s authors, speakers and coaches to learn the best strategies to grow your business right now in today's market. And as an extra bonus for a limited time, for all new members, you'll get access to a database of 200 agents in your local market that have closed anywhere from 8 to 50 transactions in the last 12 months. And we'll provide that list uploaded into our platform for you. So you can get off to a fast start in reaching actually productive agents. So what are you waiting for? You can check out more at MortgageMarketing.pro, see more of the success stories there. And if you feel compelled to do so, book a call, we'll have a chat, we'll see if it's a fit. Don't miss out on this opportunity to take your mortgage business to the next level right now. Head over to MortgageMarketing.pro.