Ep. 132 - From Firefighter to Top 1% Originator in Just Three Years

In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with real estate agents is essential for success. However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge. With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections. Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Coghill is a must-read. This has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals. And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business. To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy of the case study today. You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too. Don't miss out. Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute. More number one source for truth in mortgage marketing. Hey, everybody. Jeff Zimfer. Welcome to this edition of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast. So thrilled you are here. So let's get right into it. I've got a lot of good stuff to share with you on this episode. And once again, I am giving a shout out to one of our podcast listeners. This one is a shout out to Chet19. That's his username. That says, great marketing ideas. This podcast always brings great ideas to the table along with reminding lenders of some of the fundamentals to keep your business moving in the right direction. Thanks so much for the podcast and keep up the great work. Chet19, thanks so much for your review. You know what to do next. You want to get yourself a little podcast swag t-shirt, a box with some goodies in it for you. Hey, hit me up on Facebook, private message me, send me your t-shirt size and your mailing address. And I'm going to get you off that podcast swag box. And if you're listening and you haven't yet left a review for this podcast, folks who could turn down free swag. That's how you do it. You know what to do if you're getting value out of this podcast, appreciate you tuning in. Yes, let me know. And I will reward you for taking five minutes or less of your time for leaving a brief review. All right. So let's get into our topic for this week and my special guest. My special guest is a gentleman who I've grown to respect over the last several months. I've been watching him from a distance, if you will, for quite a while and what he and his organization have done are doing. And it's nothing about positive wins, high fives, all the way around. Who am I talking about? I'm talking about Shane Kidwell. Shane Kidwell has been in the mortgage business not a very long time. Actually, just about four years, a former retirement, retired fireman, but has sky rocketed his production success on a very, very fast clip. I mean, he's been ranked a five star mortgage professional multiple years in a row, featured in the top agent magazine lender, president's club winner, top 1% mortgage originator in his first three full time years in the industry. He was actually working in the industry part time while being a fireman and eventually transitioned out. And what I love about our conversation with Shane is a couple of different things. One, we're going to talk about technology and fundamentals and how the blending of both online and offline is what's going to lead you to succeed and stay relevant and future proof your business. Look, Shane's up in Seattle. It's disruption central up in Seattle with Redfin and Zillow and the tech companies that are up there disrupting real estate. What you're going to hear is Shane talk about why he's not worried. I ask him his question about still having customers leave reviews on Zillow. His philosophy about that is a philosophy is for Zillow as a competitor. And then we're going to get very tactical, not only strategic, but tactical and kind of unpack what the shame do to drive agent referrals deep in relationships, automate and scale his business leveraging technology. How does he get picked amongst the noisy crowd of mortgage professionals? How does he compete in a very, very tough competitive market? And then what is he doing with him and his fellow colleagues that have started next level loan officers and you want to definitely check that out as well. I put links to everything in the show notes. Shane is giving back to this industry in a big way. He's leading. He's paving the way as a trailblazer, a leader and somebody who cares and has a heart for the people he serves and us as a community of originators as a whole. And of course, naturally, if you've been following me anytime, one of the things that Shane does incredibly well and consistently is he teaches agent classes in his local market. And as you'll hear him talking about, he's not teaching the normal mortgage classes right to two or three Ks and all that, but he's teaching agents how to fish, how to make a buck. A level he talks about is that every time he calls an agent or contacts an agent, he wants to be pouring money into them and vision it as every time every call he makes to an agent, I want to give them $100. How through ideas, through strategies, through collaboration and teaming and resources. And you're going to hear Shane unpack that, talking about agent classes. Look, again, that's another hallmark of another top producer. You're hearing it today on this podcast. If you have been following me for any time now, you know, that's what we help law officers do at the mortgage marketing pro membership every month. You get a turnkey done for you agent class on hot topics, some of which Shane has mentioned on this podcast, but digital marketing, Facebook marketing, YouTube, Instagram, business building, et cetera. This is how you differentiate yourself. This is how you deliver value to real estate. This is how you put dollars in agents pockets that were turned to you thousands of dollars back because of the value you're creating. So if you want to learn more about how we're helping law officers do that, see the success stories. Go over to mortgagemarketing.pro and check out the brief video I put up there for you we can learn a lot more. So with that said, I appreciate you tuning in. Let's get into this week's show. Shane Kidwell. Welcome to the show. What's up, man? I'm living the dream buddy. Thanks for being here. I know you're incredibly busy. You've got many, many irons in the fire, as they say. So what I'd like to do, as always, is allow you to give your own personal kind of mini introduction. Who's Shane? What's they all about? Why does he love this mortgage business? Yeah, man. Great question. So I don't necessarily love mortgage. I love sales. Mortgage is the avenue for me to get in front of more people and sell. And I love sales. I love marketing branding. So the mortgage, the 1003, is not the most exciting thing in the world. I always laugh about guys, we're stressing, we're arguing, we're fighting over four pages of information typically, right? Right. But I'm a brand or I'm a marketer and I'm an entrepreneur by blood, but not by trade. So I grew up and wanted to be a fireman. And so I was a fireman for 12 years, ending my career, obviously earlier than a typical fireman would. I hurt my back quite a few times on the job. As I was kind of navigating through life as a blue collar worker, I said, man, there's like, I had this itch. I had this draw and not that being a fireman. I mean, it was an incredible job. I mean, people fight for the opportunity to be a fireman, you know, and it was amazing career. But I always felt like there was something more kind of calling me. And so halfway through my career, I met a guy as most people do in our industry. I met a guy who knew a guy who got me, right? And he was like, oh, it's easy. You make a bunch of money. You don't have to do anything. And I'm like, well, that sounds like a perfect part time, right? So got into lending at the very beginning of 2010 and a 2009, right? Yeah, very interesting time in our industry. And we were just kind of, we weren't out of, I think the crisis yet, but we were coming out of the crisis. Yeah. And I'm a less had just been established. There was a lot of things that were just being established in our industry. And I looked at that and most people said, what do you, like, what a terrible time to get into the business? And I, my common sense brain said, well, half my competition just quit because they can't pass a test. It seemed like a great time to get into the industry. Right. Like the business, I was still fireman. And I worked full time at the busiest station on the west coast and downtown Seattle right on the space needle. And I started to build my mortgage career. And I, I dabbled, I think is the nicest way of putting it. I googled a lot of information. I, I, I faked it till I made it a lot, but I started to grow and grow and grow. And we got, you know, connected with some online real estate brokerages that were growing at the time. And that helped me really start to launch my career. And, you know, without really knowing how I got to where I got, you know, three and a half years ago, almost four years ago, I, I became a branch manager still a full time fireman. Very small branch was me and a couple of buddies who just wanted to do things differently. And from there, it kept growing and growing still and we, we, we fell forward a lot. I think it's the easiest way of putting it. I mean, I made a lot of mistakes, but I learned a lot and, and my people have, still have a lot of grace for me. And so about three years ago, little under three years ago, I retired from the fire department, gave up my pension, foregoed a $100,000 year salary job and kind of bet on myself and went all in. And it's been an amazing ride, man. And I, I, you know, my, and it's, I don't say this because the numbers matter, but I think it gives a little context to my, my, my ramp up period. So last, you know, our, our last three years, I, I personal production, I was a top one percent originator. That was while also managing and growing a team and building a brand. And so, you know, now we've got 25 people and we just have fun, man. We listen to rap music at the office, we drink a lot of coffee. But we, we, we, we, we've, we're branded t-shirts and we close loans and we have a lot of fun doing it. That's cool. I want to unpack something for a second. So for those listening, because I have a variety of people listening, right? I've got people, you know, veterans, 20 plus years, people kind of in the mix that you're at and then I got some new people. So what about this led you to feel confident to say, you know what, guys, this is the future I see here for me. I'm willing to give up there. I say the security, right, of the, you had a pension and all and we know that once you retire as a fireman, you make pretty good money on your, your pension. So, so what did you see? And I want to, you know, you understand where I'm going, the context of those, we got people that are, you know, you go through the various emotions, challenging, questioning, gosh, this is right for me. So what did you see? Yeah, you know, I grew up, my dad passed away when I was seven, I grew up very insecure. And I started getting coached about five years ago and it was a dramatic change for me, you know, having somebody that basically, like, cut through all the bullshit and got right to the core of my skill set, my, like, what they saw outside looking in. And I realized about four years ago, if I'm not willing to bet on myself, why do what we do? Right? So I said, I'm going to bet on myself and my coach, and no uncertain terms, basically, said, Shane, with all due respect, you're the dumbest smart guy I've ever met. You're jumping over hundreds to pick up pennies. What other person would do that? And as he started walking me through that story, I'm like, wow, like, you're right. I, I, I hadn't thought of it that way. And when we think about what we're worth per hour, like, just like not our, our true intrinsic value, but just from a dollars and sense perspective, if you're worth $300 an hour and you're doing $10 an hour activities, like, you're not the smartest version of yourself, right? And as I started to unpack that, I just realized that, like, I had an opportunity to to make generational wealth, um, give my family the life that I didn't have as a kid. And it's, it's about what's in your heart, what's in your DNA. And being a fireman was a dream I had growing up. It was an amazing season in my life, but that season was ending, right? And instead of just, like, you know, slogging through life for 40 years and one job and being proud of that, do what you love to do as often as you can. And when you don't love it anymore, find something else that you love and do that. And like, if, and I said to myself, well, what's the worst thing that could happen? If I quit the fire department, I give up my pension, I give up my healthcare, I give up everything. And we worked eight days a month. It was an amazing job, like, you literally, unless you did something terrible, you couldn't get fired. It's amazing job security. What's the worst thing that could happen in my bed on myself? Well, it's like, well, shoot, I be dead broke. I'm dead broke. What's the worst thing? So it's like, what's the worst thing times five? Well, if I'm dead broke, what's the worst thing could happen? I couldn't pay my mortgage. What's the worst thing happens if you can't be your mortgage? Well, I lose my house. And I got to the point where my story would be, I'd buy a van, I drive the West Coast, I'd become a bartender with my wife and we'd sleep on the beach. And I'm like, I think that's my retirement plan. So the worst thing that could happen to me if I failed was I'd be retiring at 35 instead of 65. Man, I'm all in and we went all in on it. That is awesome. Man, that's that's funny. I had a similar dream once. The first time I ever went to Hawaii, I went to Kauai and I was like, that's it. I'm staying. I'm selling t-shirts on a side of the road. I don't care what it takes. I'm never going home. Yeah. Yeah. There's, you know, those people who do that for a living, there's, there's some wisdom there, I think. Yeah. Well, it's like that old joke about the guy, the big like Wall Street stock guy. So to speak, who comes to talk to this local fisherman and this max timing, you know, Mexican to have you heard this is an example. I've got it on my court. You really? Oh, my God. Yeah. And then the guy wants to be, he's like, he wants to get the fisherman to make in this massive business with the end goal of retiring and being a fisherman, right? And it's like, it's the mindset is like, and you know, in our business, we can generate all kinds of revenue. But what's the, what's the end goal? What's your why? And one of my coaches said to me, what is your why? Why do you do what you do? And it's not to make money, it's, it's, it's never to make money. It's not money is a conduit to something else. And for us, we had missionaries that would live in our, stay in our home, grow it up. And we give a lot back and the more we can make, the more we can give. And so that's been kind of a core value with my, my team and I, you know, it's interesting. You touch on that. And as I always say, like at the beginning of these, these interviews, I'm never sure where these conversations go. But I can remember. So now, you know, it's something that's, it's true. Like at time, wisdom age does give you wisdom and insight, because I can remember when I first got into sales in my 20s, it was all about the money. You know, that's all I cared about. I thought, you know, I have these grandiose dreams, you know, top of the world, mom, billionaires boy club, right, going to get rich, all that kind of stuff. Then you realize a lot of different things, you mature and you realize that actually the way to the quote, money and whatever that means or gets you, right? But the way to that is who you become, yeah, and that old quote from Jim Rohn, right? It's not what you get, it's who you become in the process. That really has the biggest impact on your success. And I've just like bought that over the last few years and it's, it sounds cliche, but it's true. I 100% agree, man. And it's like, you know, like our goal is like, and it's funny. Like, so, you know, I'm a producing manager. I'm really like, I've built a company within a company and our, our parent company's given us an amazing platform to do that. I'm shifting from being a producer to being a manager, being a leader. And the weight, the responsibility of making sure my people thrive is now bigger. It's more of a responsibility than just generating income and just closing the next deal. And so I think it's good in our, in any business to listen to the voice in your head, follow the shifts that follow your passion and just work really hard at whatever you're going to do. And that's what we've really like. We've done. And I've really felt that calling over the last couple of years. All right. Okay. Cool. Because you alluded to some numbers earlier, let's a little shift back into the business side of things momentarily. Give us a sense then you're still a producer. I know you've got a team, but how, you know, people are always wondering, L.O.'s want to know units and volume. So let's just take 2018. What did that look like? Yeah. So personal production I did just right under 40 million. I think it was 120, 130 transactions. Our team did about 100 and we did about 120 million and 400, 500, 600 transactions. This year we're this month, we just finished our best month ever. We did 23 and a half million as a group. So almost, almost double our best year from last year. All right. So here's a question. Do you know then what your average production is, parallel? Yeah, it depends. Some because we have full-time guys and gals and we have really, really part-time. Okay. So we're in a couple of states. Washington, Arizona, Missouri. So we've got, we've got a really cool blend of manufacturing homes and high rises, right? Our average producer averages five to six loans a month. So that's kind of the average for the group. And so this last month we closed, I think, 65 transactions. That's great. Now I'm asking that because I get a lot of exposure to average production and what I see across the board is the average production per LO. It's like the people talk about the realtor, right? Oh, the average realtor's only close in four deals a year. Okay. Well, the average loan officer's only doing three or four closer to three. I mean, talking about broad spectrum average LO. So why do you think your average producer full-time producer is higher? Yeah, and I think truthfully that's probably a really generous number. I think, yeah, I think the, like the, the part of hard part is you have a lot of people that basically do like one deal a year for grandma or whatever, right? Yeah. I think like the average LO is doing like less than a deal a month. But then you start to get in like the space you're in, you see people that are far more successful. Sure. So the average guy is doing, you know, two to four deals a month. I think we really focus on a couple of different key areas. One of the things is, and this is really important and it's a quote that Wayne Gretzky said once, I've heard it several times. I love it. When people asked Wayne, like how did you become so successful? Because I mean, like quite honestly Wayne Gretzky wasn't the tallest, the strongest, the fastest. There was nothing about him that you'd walk in down the street like that guy is probably the best hockey player of all time. What Wayne did is he said, I didn't go where the puck was going or I didn't go where the puck was. I went where the puck was going. He forecasted where things were going to be and that's where he moved. And I think that we've done that in our business model. Like being a fireman, you're always training for the potential that could happen, training for what's happening right now because if you're training for that, you're too late. And we've done that in our business model from understanding the shift in technology, understanding the shift in the client experience, understanding that we have to have a personal touch, but we also have to have technology to bridge the gap from a competitive pricing perspective, understanding that like we want to win more often than not. And it's not dip about one paycheck. It's about numerous paychecks. And if that means we're leaner and meaner per loan, but we close more transactions that gives us a bigger pool to refi, it gives us a bigger pool to advertise to. So we're trying to just shift how we look at doing things and it's that abundance mentality. It's not the scarcity mentality of where a couple of years ago, everyone was a branch manager of one that this massive comp closing one or two loans a month and they celebrated that as success. And I don't celebrate that as success. I celebrate building a team that can scale. Like we don't do anything here at 12 mortgages. It doesn't scale from a technology, from a strategy, from a hiring perspective. Everything we do here can scale and it's like it's like something that can breathe. And the industry gets bigger, we can breathe and get bigger. Because the industry slows down, we can contract without having to terminate staff. And so I think that's really been our mindset. And I think that, you know, and then again, like I'm not a manager who sits back and waits for success. I generate my own success. And then I pull back the curtains with my people and I show them, hey, this is what I'm doing that's working for me. Try it on for size. And if it doesn't work all good, go back to what you're doing. A lot of managers wait for other people because they're non producers. I just don't believe in that model personally. I feel like the producing manager model helps you be connected on the street better than the alternative. All right. So that segues into something you said, our previous conversation with my notes here. You said the market is only challenging for those who aren't prepared, which is an awesome quote. By the way, if you didn't say that, I'm giving you credit right now. But speaking of the puck, you're looking at where the puck's going. Clearly, you're up in Seattle, you're in a very highly competitive industry. Your tech is around you everywhere, disruptors and all that. So how are you then personally advising your people to shift where is the puck going and what are some things tactically you guys are doing as well? Yeah. I mean, one thing, just from a nuts and bolts, like how are people are compensated and price because price is important. Like, listen, I've worked for high rate companies, my entire career, I've generated 100% of my business. I've never paid for a lead. So like when the people say, well, it's not about rate, it's all about the salesmanship, that's true. But if I'm a 6% and you're four, I lose. Or I win and I go from making $300 an hour to $350 an hour, like $3.50, because I put so much energy into winning that deal, that's not a successful format for growing your business. So we cap our commissions as a group and we make sure that we do it in an aggressive way. So if we don't hit our cap, we don't want to have that cap because the whole goal is, we know that in our market, there's high balance, there's jumbo, there's like our average home price in Seattle proper is over $700,000. Do I need to make 10 grand on a deal to be able to survive? I quite frankly don't. I lived on a fireman salary. We want to be lean and mean and we want to be able to use our resources to have technology. And so we do cap ourselves in a way that's aggressive. And again, we want to close more loans for more people, more often, to build our circle on our sphere of influence quicker. So I think that's a key thing that we're doing that's a lot of people want to resist because they see it as they're losing money, as we're winning clients. Yeah, I want to clarify that. So you're capping your comp so that you've got more margin to win deals. Yeah, so we actually build it into our pricing engine. So once we hit our cap and so what we do, it's a great exercise for everybody to do. You look at your average loan amount and the average loan amount is let's just say 300,000 or 200,000. You make a hundred basis points a deal. Your average commission is two grand. Well, if you cap at three grand, you're giving yourself an extra thousand dollar cushion. But anytime you go over that average loan amount, built into our price and engine rates actually start going down. So in previous companies, we had, I mean, our high balance, our jumbo was non-competitive and you would get that client and you would almost go, oh great. Here comes another $700,000 bar where that I can't win. Like that's a terrible way before you walk on the field you've already lost. We wanted to shift that and we want to, before we get on the field, we know we've won against our competition. So our cap is, and it's, and actually our L.O.s voted on and agreed to it. So it wasn't like it was implemented and forced upon by me or anyone else. We sat down as a group and we said, when Amazon creates a mortgage company, when Zillow creates a mortgage company, when other, you know, Fintech create mortgage companies, what are we going to do so that we can win? Instead of saying we're going to lose, let's just, let's make as much as we can before we lose. We said, we are going to win. What do we need to do to win? And one aspect of that was price. And do you give your people the leeway then to make those decisions in real time, you know what I mean? So we set that and then it's all based on, you know, the lawyers and CFPB. Our attorneys felt like we could adjust our comp six months. So every twice a year, we sit down as a group and we sit down individually and I say, where are you? How are your numbers? Where do you want to be? Where's your product mix? And there's a lot of strategy that goes into that. We're not just throwing a number out there. We're strategically and tactically looking at, where is our audience? What type of homes are they buying? Like, what do they want to see? What's the biggest barrier to them working with us? How do we create that sticking in factor so that they, like, they can't get out of our grass because we have, you know, technology, competitive rates, power of choice with products. And so that's really kind of been our mindset. All right. Well, let's then unpack this a little bit further than. So, and by the way, I agree with that strategy. 100% that too many people are, you know, short sales cited, short sales DNA, right? Where it's just about just this one deal and you're focused on winning the war, not the battle. Because you're going to lose a couple battles. But as long as you win the war, right? That's okay. Yeah. Then tell us then a little bit about how you, you know, your process, right? I know we talked about how you have, like, a four-part marketing process. You want to talk about that? Yeah. And let me just be clear because what people will hear what they want to hear. People will hear, well, Shane talked about price and always a broker or always like the cheapest guy in town, not the case at all. Like, that's one of our strategies. We have many. Like you never go into battle using your analogy with just foot soldiers or just tanks or just jets. Like, that's one, like, we're coming, we're hitting them from land, air, and sea, right? And that's one strategy. I think a big part of what we're doing is we're building personal brands for our fellows. And so my marketing plan touches on taking the online offline. One of the things that's really important is, listen, where the puck is currently is everyone is online. They're buying leads. They're doing automation. They're creating, like, drips and all these things that are great because it makes you quote unquote more efficient, but it makes you less personal. Right. What we felt like was, well, listen, if everyone's doing that, and another quote that I love that everyone should use, Andy Andrews had breakfast with us about two years ago and he's a coach for Nick Sabin. I think he's coach George Bush, the guy is wise beyond his years. He said, if you want to double your business, don't do what your competition's doing. Do the opposite of what your competition's doing. And that's so true. Like, if I'm trying to beat you and you're doing online leads, well, it's a race to the bottom. We're going to spend, we're just going to spend, spend, spend until you and I are both now getting the worst quality leads at the highest cost we possibly can and we're burned out. If my competition's buying online leads, not that I can't have that as an ancillary strategy, I'm going personal. So we use video. We use our marketing, like client experience, which you mentioned. And so that's a four part, like small and expensive gifting campaign where we're sending personal touches to all the people we interact with. It's built into our CRM. So as an LO, I'm high D on the disc profile. I'm swirl mode all the time. That's where automation helps my team get in front of my people for me without me having to do anything. So we have different milestones automatically triggered in our CRM that will let my office coordinator know to send a personalized Starbucks card at pre approval to send a little magnet that walks the client through the process that they put on their fridge at time of application to send them, you know, to their place of employment cookies branded with our logo, you know, and caveat, anything I do is branded and is branded with my stuff, it's branded with my logo. I'm not advertising for some giant company that if I leave, they're going to take my database. I'm advertising for me because at the end of the day, my agents care about me. They're going to remember me good or bad. My reputation is on the line. So everything we do, it's based on personal branding, but we're giving these things and we're doing these cookies. We're doing these things after closing because we understand that if everyone's getting to them online and I get to them in their mailbox and I get to them through video and I get to them through email and I get them through the phone, I win. And so we're hitting them from different angles to make sure that if somebody is online heavy, my bomb bomb video emails will touch them where they need to be touched. Hit them at the core to make sure that we have a high stickiness factor with them. If it's somebody who really like would love to get a handwritten card because how often do we actually get personal handwritten cards? Not enough. If you send a handwritten card, it takes you three minutes. It blows your mind when it comes. First of all. Yeah. And you're like, and you almost feel like the president sent you like, and like, it feels so bad. You're like, wow, this is amazing. And if it's a, Hey, Jeff, man, I'm blessed to know you. Thank you so much for taking this home ownership journey with me and my team. Can't wait to see at the finish line. That might cost me 35 cents, but that might give me like a 100 times rate of return on that. I'm hitting you with a video and I'm giving you cookies sent to your place of work with our branded logo in my business cards. I'm doing these different things pretty soon. I'm not a robot just spitting out a 1003. I'm a brand and we're building like an ecosystem that's a mortgage family. And we win because there's robots that can generate a 1003 quicker than me. There's robots that can automatically communicate quicker than me. A robot is not going to sign my card is not going to have a happy hour with my clients. It's not going to send them cookies. That's where we're going to be the fintech. Well, there's so many things to talk about in there and I think this is a great point right? Just to reiterate that. I've talked about that on previous podcasts, which is, yeah, too many people are trying to automate everything and, you know, when I had, when I had a Mark Schaefer on author of a marketing rebellion, love the tagline of his book, the most human company will win. Even with this whole technology automate that and I think that's such a great point. People are missing the mark. People don't want to outsource the human really. We're humans. So we're going to behave like humans. Technology is not going to eliminate our desire to have human interaction, right? And I've said this time and time again, it's not like it's just a broken record in my head. Use technology like James describing here for efficiencies, for scale, but not for eliminating that human touch because once you do that, then why should I be loyal to you? I've got no reason. No personal connection. You know, Jeff, it's so funny because like we'll have recruits that will call us. And the first question they ask is, do you give me a marketing budget and do you buy me leads? And my first thought is, I want to say to him, brother, like I know how to close loans. If I can generate free leads that close, why do I need you? I can hire an assistant to help me close the loan. Like they're just not giving themselves any value. They're basically want to make great money, but I don't really believe in my own self-worth. And the reality is that like if you are scared of the business shifting and our industry is going through a dramatic shift and at the end of the day, the winners will always embrace the challenge. I can't wait for the next five years in our industry because I'm ahead of it. I'm excited for it. But half my competition will probably go away again. But if your mindset is, somebody else is going to do the farming for me. Somebody else is going to plant the seeds and water the plants and harvest it. You've already lost. You just don't know it yet. Yeah. It's funny that the thing you touched on and made me think of, I saw a survey recently about the most important skills in, I guess this was forecasting out 10, 20 years, but the most important skills that are going to be needed is a couple things we're hitting on here. Critical thinking, creativity, and people skills. Yeah. Communication too. I mean, we feel like proper communication can prepare people for any unexpected thing that can come in the process and save you time and build respect and build confidence in what you're doing. So, yeah, I mean, we're using price, we're using brand, we're using a ton of technology. I mean, we've been blessed to have built relationships with some of the brightest minds in the industry. Dave Savage with Mortgage Coach, we've been using since I started, Barry Habib with MBS Highway. I've been using since I started. Like, again, I mean, social survey, bomb, bomb, I mean, like there's so many amazing people in our industry. And again, all of those things aren't removing me from the job. They're simply making me better at being an advisor, being an educator, being somebody who like really adds value to the marketplace. And I think that's what's really been key for our people. And I think when you factor in competitive price, boots on the ground leadership, like I'm sweating with these guys, you know, I'm working through the market just with these guys and technology, like I think that's where you see that combination together has worked really well. What do you spend or what do you try to spend, and if you're wearing multiple hats there, or otherwise asked, what do you coach your originators whose job is to originate? What do you, where do you see the mistakes where they spend too much time in these various categories? Yeah, you know what's funny? Like I was just talking one of my guys this morning. I think that people fall back on technology as the first step when the relationship is the first step, technology is two, three or four. But technology is something you, it's like I was saying, I said, listen, do you think a baseball player, before he does anything, focuses on taping his hands? Like he learns how to hit the ball out of the park, then he uses the pine tar and tapes his hands. Like so what we're doing is the opposite. We're doing all the little ancillary things. First, we're making that our number one priority in our day, and we're forgetting that like guys, if you can't swing the bat and hit the ball, it doesn't matter what your uniform looks like, or how like great your like your logo is or whatever. It's like that's irrelevant if you don't do the things that you need to do. And so the highest ROI activities for us is what we coach on is personal interactions. We do a lot of organic social media. And what we have found, like we don't pay for leads. We generate organic leads to our organic strategies that help us get in front of our people and we meet them where they are. And we're doing that and everything we're doing, whether it's through the phone through video, through events, happy hours, we do a lot of client appreciation stuff. Again, like what you'll notice is it's a mix of old and new, right? And the new is old, the old is new. So we're kind of blending what works really well for all these different categories of our audience and then hitting them with all those things. Yeah, it's funny. I want to make this point and we'll move on to some of the more specifics that you do like events and things. But when you know the last point about technology, it's funny. Everybody's trying to kind of like automate the work, right? Automate the relationship is talking to the loan officer yesterday and we're evaluating these different products that help you get aware and notified when your past database is doing something, right? And they're great technologies, right? I'm not banging on the technologies. But the thought entered my head, why don't you just pick up the phone? You know, and usually the people that are looking to are like so excited about that frigging tech WazeBang where it's just like, oh my God, I'm going to know if they're doing this and that and I won't miss out on these deals. And I'm like, well, how many past clients calls did you make this week? Zero. Well, and the funny thing about that technology and hey, we use it too. If you're waiting for that technology to tell you to interact with your past client, you've already lost the war. Like the reality is we get those, we get those trig those lead triggers or those and the credit inquiry triggers or whatever and I go, oh, cool. Yep, I knew that guy was going to do that. I talked to him four days ago. He was a price sensitive buyer when I met him before. We've been marking to him for 12 months. He's going to check with another company. I follow up like I always do and we win the deal. That's not the first time we're meeting with the consumer. That's just the reiteration of a reminder that, you know, and when we get these, it's, it's few and far between because we've done so much marketing in advance of that that, like if you have 500, 600 clients and you get one a month, that's a win. Like that tells you that you're doing something right. Yeah, I guess the question to ask yourself listeners is when is the last time you have a conversation with people in your past database? Because some stats were shared earlier. I forget who shared it. But anyway, they told me that the data, the public record data they had was that approximately 25% of people redo the mortgage with the previous broker, loan officer, whatever, 25% and the reason why is the loan officer's fault. 100%. You know, what's interesting is, so I have that stat. One of our presentations we do for our coaching platform, when, when, when people close their loan and they're asked, would you use your lender again? Like 89% say yes. And then the reality is only 23.4% actually do that's our fault. That's not the consumers fault. We can be like fintech, but it's because we aren't loving our people after we close because we're not thinking long game. We're thinking cash my check and go golf instead of saying that's the first check of many because I'm going to love on this guy for the next 30 years and refying four times, pre-approving three times. Like that's the long game and understand that your greatest asset is your list, is your past clients, that's your greatest asset in your business. And then lastly is the other issue is the loan officers are still in that I'm a salesperson mentality. You clearly are not a salesperson. You're thinking business strategic tactical, but also strategic. Yeah, I mean, it's like the difference between being a military grant and being a Navy seal, right? Like we, we, we talk all the time that we use Navy seal tactics. Like we trained before we fight, we're preparing for any like alternative reality that could come. We have the best technology, the brightest people. Like you don't see Navy seals using old technology. They have the best technology we haven't even heard of. And so we always try to be on the cutting edge of technology. And that goes really to the point of, are you always working in your business? Or are you working on your business? And like there's a combination of both depending on where you're at and your journey, but you've got to have time spent working on the business. Right, 100%. Okay, cool. So speaking of tactics, people love tactics. Let's switch back into I asked you earlier. I think your number one source of business is agents, referral partners, referral partners. Great. And then you personally, how many agents roughly do you work with? My gosh, we market to 300. We're working with anywhere from 15 to 20 personally on a, in a given month. I've got like 24 active deals right now. And there might be 18 different agents on those. Okay. So, so let me, let me throw this out to you. Because I don't know if you've heard my rants in the past, but as we talked about earlier, there's a lot of different bright Chinese objects places to get business. And I'm still, and it was funny. I was even a little apprehensive of like even coming out and saying this in a big way because I'm a believer in technology, right? I'm a believer in like if you can do online ads that make sense, do it. But don't do it at the expense of foregoing what I foresee is still the number one source of purchase business is your local real estate agent. What do you say to that? I mean, 100%. I mean, like at the end of the day, my, my family grew up farming. So I use a lot of farming analogies. Like the best farmers don't have one crop. Like the best farmers have multiple crops. And they might have their one staple crop that they do the most of. But if the market shift, if the weather shifts, if the season shift, they're going to have multiple crops. Listen, it's good to have multiple sources of income, multiple sources of leads online. Maybe you have some niche, like, you know, Navy. There's a Navy base or whatever the case may be. The reality is one thing that we talk a lot with our people about is understanding your time. Like we, and we call it leveling your business. And this is a great strategy for people who don't know where to spend their time. So really, I have three levels of business people that I work with. A level one relationship is Jeff, you're, you're a prospect, you're a lead. You're going to close alone. I'm going to get paid one check on one relationship. That's a level one. Now there's nothing wrong with level one relationships. The reality is it's hard to scale that. A level two is like a real estate agent. It might be a financial planner, CPA, divorce attorney, whatever. If I spend that same amount of time with you, I should expect to get back two times or more revenue, right? Like if I work with a real estate agent, I'm not expecting to get one deal a year. I'm expecting to get one deal a month, right? Or two deals a month or whatever the case may be. So then if I stop right there and I go, okay, well, where am I going to put my time? Well, if I want to grow my business, the first, my, my best time every day is with my level two. Then if I have time left over, I go to my level ones because I know if I spend time with my level twos, I can, I get such my ROI is so much higher. That's how I can make more per hour work in the same or less. Now, then I go to level three that might be a brokerage. It might be a builder. It might be a team lead. If I only have an hour a day to do sales activities, I go to my level threes. And then I look and I say, have I loved on my level threes? Okay, cool. Then I go to my level twos. Have I loved on my level twos? I might not have time in a given day to go to my level ones, but that's where you build a team so you can scale, right? And so for us, we do that with real estate agents. A real estate agent is a level two relationship. We don't ever focus on level ones in lieu of level twos. An online lead is like a level zero point zero one, right? Like some of them will convert at like 1.5%, but like if I had 100 coffee appointments with 100 agents and I did that in a really effective way, I'm guaranteed to get more than one real estate agent out of those 100 guarantee. Like unless I'm just like absolutely the biggest jerk on the planet. And so you have to be thinking like your time is so important. You're punching the clock, whether you're making money or not. And that's a hard thing for commission people to understand. And for me as a fireman, it was easy. Like I'm worth $372 an hour. How am I going to spend that hour of my time? Am I going to spend that building an online funnel that converts at 1% or am I going to go love on a real estate agent that has given me over 45 transactions in the last two years? I know where I'm spending my time. Like it's easy for me to know how important referral partners are because I see the intrinsic value in my time. All right. So let's unpack a little bit then let's down that's Fred for a moment because I know the people who respond to my surveys and stuff. It's real estate agency is the number one thing when I ask them what's their number one business challenge. It usually comes back to real estate agency 80% of the time. So what are some tactics or how do you coach L. L. As we know, it's a crowded space. It's noisy. A lot of people chasing them. Anything you do to kind of show up or get noticed? Yeah, a couple of things. You know, one thing is first and foremost, if you can't see yourself being friends with this person in my world, don't, don't market to him. Like the last thing you want to do is get a phone call and go, Oh, great. Don't yawns calling me again from, you know, fill in the blank real estate company. All right. I want to see that phone ring. I'm going to go, this is going to be a fun conversation because this is a friend. So first and foremost, I think that people that you can be friends with too. I think that like in every interaction I have with any referral partner, I want to give them a dollar. What I mean by that is I want like any time I email them, it should be an email that adds value to their life. Like if I said, if every time I called you or texted you or emailed you or met with you, I was going to give you money. Would you meet with me all day, man? All day. Now, if I asked you for money, would you meet with me? I mean, yeah, you would the first time and then you'd be like, man, all this guy does is call me an ask for business. So my strategy now, not that I'm not in a cool way asking for business, I'm going to give them value. Now, everybody that could be different for if you're generating online leads, you might give agents leads that could be perceived value. If you have really cool niche programs, you might educate them on a niche program that allows them to open their market share to a different audience. It might be, hey, did you know the Fed just cut rates? And this is how that can affect you and your database. It might be, hey, we have it upcoming, like we feel like we're going to go into a recession. Here's how you can plan ahead. Here's how you can educate your people. Let's do a video together. Like we're always in any time any time I interact with any referral partner, my goal is to give them at least a dollar. Really, it's probably a hundred. I want to give them a hundred dollar bill every time I interact with them. If I do that, they're going to want to work with me. They're going to want to pick up my calls. They're going to want to read my emails because they know it's something that helps them grow their business. I liked that. Do you then the video thing? I think it's great because I try and get more allows to do videos with real estate agents. I don't see many doing it. Any advice on how to broach that? How to enter that arena? Yeah. One thing that we've done, like guys, guys, no one cares how you look. If the value, if you bring value, like no one, no one cares, right? I think that's the excuse the realtor doesn't want to do it. Yeah. It's oh, the realtor doesn't want to do it. Oh, I've never done it before or no one wants to hear me. I don't have an audience. Well, no one has an audience until they do, right? There's like anyone just turns on Instagram and has a hundred thousand followers. It's called work. You're not willing to do the work. Moniz will get off the podcast with videos. What we do is we bring education that an agent would want to communicate to their audience. When I started my old boss at Hey Shane, why don't you fill out this sheet and so we can look at your database? And I'm like, what the hell is a database? Because these are all the people you're going to market to. Right. Stop there. And I'm writing, you're like, mom, go Joe, mom, stepdad, brother, couple of times from college. And I'm like, I'd like 14 people. And then I had a guy, a business development guy at a company. I was at said, everybody knows 50 people. And if you know 50 people and I know 50 people, and you tell your 50 people about me, now I know a hundred. Think about it. If I know 50 people and 50 people know 50 people, what's the math on that? 50 times 50 to what is that 250? 2500 2500. Thank you. That's crazy. So, so then the reality is my job is to give you my referral partner, education, tools, value that you are going to want to share with your people. Right. Because if I do that with 50 people, now my database is 2500 with a call to action. So we use MBS Highway. We've been doing a lot. Barry has been incredibly generous at like educating us in the mortgage profession on what's coming up in the in the financial world. And there's a lot of uncertainty and fear there. So what we're doing is we're getting on. Well, just like you and I are, we get on a Zoom meeting. I'll get on with an agent and I'll say, Hey, agent, here's a script. This is the question asked me and I'll run with it. And the agent might say, Hey, Shane, you know, a lot of my clients are really uncertain about whether or not they should dip their toe into buying market for fear of a recession. Let's say you, I'm like, Hey, thanks, you know, thanks, John, so much for that. It's a phenomenal question. We get that all the time. And then I go into my education over the next four to five minutes, using some, you know, tool that I have a podcast I've listened to, I've listened to a video. I've watched a book I've read and I educate and advise. So now, and then when I'm done, we save that video. We send it to the agent that agent drops a video on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, emails it to their database. Now I've just inserted myself into their sphere for free. So the excuse that I can't afford it. I don't have time. It takes five minutes and you can get zoomed for like 20 bucks a month. Yeah, but what's your call to action at the end of that? If I can ask any of the varies, but yeah, it'll be like, Hey, and, you know, and John, like if your clients would like to know more about, and like, so we've been speaking a lot about the recession, like upcoming potential recession. Hey, and what people don't understand is rates typically go down in a recession. It's a phenomenal time to buy. You have more borrowing power. Hey, if you would like to figure out how much borrowing power you have, if you like to see some of these charts that we, we showed you today from our proprietary technology, give me a call, send me a text at, and then we'll fill in the information. Very cool. So again, what I'm doing, Jeff, as I'm actually now offering a dollar to their audience, if you'd like a dollar, send me a text, I'll give you a dollar. Yeah, but don't you think Shane that a message, an alternate message message to that? I don't know why I can't speak. Would, you know, would have been, Hey, guys, rates are down. Give me a call. Yeah. And like, all right, I'm being sarcastic on purpose. Well, but you know what right now, truthfully, like if you're in a really, really good market, yeah, that could work. But like, but it's not working because you're, you're excelling at your job. It's working because of the market, right? Like anyone can stumble right now. Oh, right, right, right. It's like the gold rush, right? Like when the gold rush started in Alaska, people would like spill off the boat and find gold, right? Well, that's not because you're a minor. It's just because there was an abundance of gold. Right now, we have an abundance of gold. I'm refining people like crazy right now. My strategies aren't dictated by my current reality. My strategies are dictating my future reality. Hmm, interesting. I like it. It's a great idea. I love pouring value into the wheels and they are probably appreciative of the fact that the other thing that maybe is kind of under the surface is you're now giving them content to help them kind of dip their toe in the water with social media. Mango, mango. So yeah, that's the thing is we'll teach them how to use organic social media to leverage their audience. We'll teach them how to build their audience. And then we co basically co brand content that they can then give to their audience, which at the end of the day benefits me. Yeah. So that videos may be one to three minutes. It like our last one we did was like four to five and really like that's as long as you really want to be. That's probably long, but the content we just we it was a 30 minute presentation. I shrunk to like four minutes. But again, if you're speaking to the right audience with the right content, four minutes is fine. You could shorter make it a teaser and say, Hey, if you want to get more information, text this, use a short code or something like that. Is there a particular tool you guys use for your texting capabilities? So we use a couple. Our phone service that we give to all of our people is ring central. And a ring central has zoom integration built into it. So we get the meetings. We get all that included. And what we like about that is it scales your business. And I always go back to scaling. Well, I want to be able to take a vacation and actually have a vacation. And for me, ring central allows my team to manage my communication while I'm gone. And it also has a text messaging capability. Okay. What are the other activities you're doing that seem to generate business for you? We teach a lot of classes. And so again, we'll teach classes to referral partners. And we'll teach classes not no fence to people who do this, but we just don't believe in it. We're not teaching classes about two or three kilos. Like no one, no one really cares about that for more than about three minutes. We're teaching agents how to make money and it will be how to market to your database, how to grow your business through organic social media, how to become a personal brand, how to navigate and succeed in and slowing markets, things that like those are what happens, everyone goes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then we'll, we'll market to them over 45 days, typically. So I like to say, how did you invite people to your wedding? Save the day and written invite. Maybe you built a website. Maybe you called them like, we want to touch people four or five times before they actually come to our event because, hey, they're seeing my brand. They're seeing my name and I'm reminding them that I'm going to give them money. So, so in a way, I'm almost giving them money through the reminder. And I'm saying, hey, in 45 days, I'm going to give you money to grow your business. In 32 days, I'm going to give you money to grow your business. So now when they need a lender, if I'm doing that along with our other strategies, we win. Do you hold those at your office, typically? It depends. Like so we've done events for as many as 140 agents. We'll bring in guest speakers. We'll get sponsorship dollars through all of our like approved vendors. But what we're doing more of now, and again, this is where, you know, you have to listen to your voice. I did a class for 140 people and it felt great, obviously, to have 140 agents in a room. The reality is, I can't market to or love on 140 people. So although it felt good, it really wasn't the highest ROI. So now we're scaling back and we're doing private VIP secret classes. We're calling them for like up to 10 agents. Hmm, really? And we're doing those at our office. And so obviously you're targeting those agents based on relationship or production and things like that. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. I like that. Okay. We are almost out of time here. Okay. Let's briefly then shift to the shift. Let's shift to the shift. A lot of like you said, this industry is changing quickly, rapidly, new stories every day. You know, the Amazon alignment with real real, real, real, zillos now a mortgage company. I know you've got leads on Zillow. I mean, reviews and this is a heated debate that I get into with somebody. So what's your, are you going to continue to ask people to leave reviews on Zillow? So for me, Zillow is not my competition. Amazon's not my competition. I'm my competition. Like if I don't win, it's not because of them. It's because I didn't get out of bed and do what I needed to do to make what I needed to make. So for me right now, like we'll get reviews on Zillow because it still is a place where a lot of people go to get information about homes. Sure. And so like I'm not paying Zillow. I'm just utilizing the platform for free. So that if you click, if you type in my name and Google, I'm going to come up on multiple different platforms and it builds legitimacy to my brand. So I'll use third parties for legitimacy. I'm not paying for it and end the debate. I'm not, well, whether do you invest in Zillow leads or not? Man, if it works for you and it generates your revenue, like then do it. If it doesn't, then don't, but don't build a story that it doesn't work or it does unless you've actually done it. Now I would say that there's a lot of free ways you can build business without having to pay for it. But yeah, I still use Zillow. I mean, like Redfin is a huge online, like real estate brokerage. They started in my market. We used that platform for years to grow my brand. It stopped being an area where I got the type of audience that was fitting my business model. So I stopped advertising with Redfin. And my business never went down. Like at one point, I was probably getting 25 to 50% of my business through Redfin. Through Redfin introductions. I was teaching classes for Redfin and this isn't like a knock on Redfin, but they decided to start to advertise mortgage rates, right? And like and select markets have a mortgage company. It just stopped fitting me. They're all in stopped fitting, fitting my business plan and my growth. I stopped focusing on that. I didn't go home and sit on my back porch and drink a cold one. I shifted my work. I shifted to areas that fit my model and continue to grow my business. Yeah, and that's really kind of was the intent behind my asking you about the Zillow thing because that's coming to with Zillow. And so, you know, some of the talk on these Facebook groups is, you know, if you're going to be asking clients is one of the options to put reviews on Zillow, they're just going to market the hell out of those people. Yeah, I mean, and if they market to my people after I've already closed them, I could care less because I'm better at marketing than Zillow is. And what I say by that is Zillow's not sending a handwritten card to their house. They're not fighting them to a client appreciation event three times a year. They're not calling them and loving on them. And we call there's a great tip for anybody on this call. You want to generate business? Write this down. Do opportunity alerts? I coined this term so you can use it. But go on the Facebook, go on the LinkedIn, go on Instagram and stock your sphere. Anytime they have a baby, they have a death, anytime there's anything in their life at all, you send them something. You have congratulations on the birth of your first son. That is so amazing. We're so excited for you. You send them a $5 one Z from Amazon. Zillow's never going to do that. I win because I love my people and my people love our brand because we're loving on them. And so I don't really concern myself with Zillow. I don't ever think about that as a competitor. If my people review me and they put it on Zillow, I already won. And I'm going to continue to win because of what we're doing. And I don't say that to be like, look at me. I'm the greatest thing in the world. I just know that I'm meeting my people where they are. And there's something like there's an intrinsic value to personal relationship that can never. I don't think we'll ever go away. Yeah. Yeah. How do you collect your online reviews? Social survey, you said, right? Yeah. So we use social survey and obviously like the goals. And so as we were talking, what was really cool is we've been on social survey now for since like January. So like seven or eight months and my, my brand, dwell mortgage has over 460 reviews. Yeah. It's like 0.95 or something like that. Yeah. That's awesome. Fantastic. Okay. Let's close it out with anything you're doing. So here we are all the way through past the halfway point of 2019. Either what do you focus down to close out the rest of you this year's strong and or kind of prep for 2020? Yeah. I mean, we're really building our marketing for Q4 right now. And that's, again, it all goes back to what is my audience need in 2020? I know that when the market slows, like my agents are not going to know what to do at their time, right? So we're actually building what we call playbook, which will be an activity tracker for our agents to use to track their day. So and then we're going to teach a class on the tracker and we're going to brand that tracker. And they're going to put that tracker on their desk every day. Like we want our brand to be in front and center every day. So we're looking at, where is my audience need support six months from now? And then I'm building my marketing around that. Now one thing I can tell you is like everybody, we've been overwhelmed with business. I loved on our people as much as we should have because we just haven't had time. We've had to say no to certain things today that when it's slower, we wouldn't need to say no to. So now we're really going on a kick to like love on our people. Like remind them that we care about them. Get in front of them with coffee, have activities with our referral partners, add value and what they're doing. Help them with co-marketing branding and different mailers and things like that. So we have a lot of different activities and we're getting ready to teach another class. Fantastic. So definitely you are actively engaged in your local market, Belly to Belly with the people that matter. Using technology. Yep. As well using technology when it makes sense, right? Yep. 100% fantastic. All right. So the other thing you do outside of you as a company, tell me a little bit about next level lenders, right? Yeah. So next level loan officers is a private kind of high end coaching platform to myself and three other producing managers put together. And we've got some other founders and incredible guys. We felt like there was a void in our marketplace. Like listen, there's a lot of coaching, jump on Facebook and there's like 95 coaching platforms. The reality is most of those people haven't actually originated alone. Some ever, some in the last five years. And we felt like there was, there was, there was, we were missing a space where like-minded people could collaborate without all the bull that gets in the way, no posturing. And it's been an incredible opportunity. So we have three different tiers of coaching from entry level to high, you know, high producing, high thinking people and we get together quarterly. We've been New Orleans Denver, we go over the country and we have fun. We break bread together. We challenge each other. We have a private group online that keeps each other accountable. We're sharing ideas because the reality is is that everything you are you or I are looking to do. Somebody else has probably already done it. Right. Why not copy paste, add your spin and repeat. And so that's what we're really encouraging our folks to do. 100% love it. Okay, so for people who want to investigate that a little bit further, how, where do we send them? Yeah, you know, so if you want to reach out to me and you've got questions about, you know, obviously like dwell mortgage or next level, just send me a text to 38470 and type in the word dwell. D W E L L. That'll send me your information. We'd love to connect otherwise, find me on Facebook or LinkedIn or Instagram. Man, there's so much power in like-minded people connecting and sharing and sharing struggles and wins together. Well, 100% and by the way, for anybody who's listening, you're curious. I mean, if you guys investigate next level with Shane and his team, there's nothing I get out of that. I just, you know, I want, I believe in bringing value to you, the listener. And I've seen what Shane and his team are doing out there. So I feel comfortable in dare I say supporting you in the, in the efforts. How's that? Thanks, Jeff. You bet. All right. So listen, uh, anybody any other ways you want to give people a reach or is that it? With that's the number one thing, right? Text 12, 38470, right? That's it. 38470. Got it. Okay. Listen, Shane, I know you're busy. You probably got loans to close and things like that. So I appreciate you making time. Thanks, man. And listeners as always, hope you like this episode. You know what to do, leave us a little love. If you're listening, leave us a review on the inner webs and hey, you'll get yourself a free podcast t shirt. You know how to do that. So appreciate you tuning in and we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now. Thanks for listening to mortgage marketing radio. One more truth in mortgage marketing. Get more free training and resources at mortgage marketing institute dot com. Hey guys, what's up real quick? Uh, you've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before and I just want to quickly remind you if that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchase loans. You need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase business for you. Well, good news. Our mortgage marketing pro membership helps loan officers like you close more loans without the hassle of chasing agents or cold calling. 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