Ep 145: The $200 Million Dollar Man on Building a High Trust Referral Business Closing 400 Loans

In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with real estate agents is essential for success. However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge. With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections. Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read. This has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals. And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business. To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy of the case study today. You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too. Don't miss out. Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio. Brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute, your number one source for truth in Mortgage Marketing. Hey listeners, what is up Jeff Zimper, your host for another episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast. Appreciate you being here. We're going to jump right into it today. First of all, a quick shout out for any of you that are leaving a review wherever you're listening to this podcast. I appreciate you and here's a thank you for you. You may or may not know that if you leave a review and message me on Facebook, right? Facebook messenger me. Let me know that you did leave a review, send me your mailing address and your t-shirt size. We're going to send you a podcast t-shirt, actually a podcast swag box and we're adding to that box every single month. I'm just waiting for my new shipment of t-shirts to come in because I got the stack of people who left a review and they're dying for their t-shirts. So if you're listening, you know who you are and I appreciate your patience. If you haven't yet left a review, hit up on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, wherever you're listening to this podcast or go right over to our Facebook page, which by the way is a place you should be checking out anyway. We've got a private community just for you, the podcast listeners, over on Facebook, just search Mortgage Marketing Radio and what will come up is the podcast community request join. If you are indeed a Mortgage professional, right? This is not a place for third party vendors to pitch a bunch of wares or people try to sell lead packages and things like that. This is a place for those of you practicing daily in the Mortgage business as a Mortgage professional. So check it out. Boom. This week's review comes from Mark Orrigal. Mark says, Hey Jeff, just wanted to let you know I've been listening to your podcast for a little under five months now and I got to say I've learned so much. All of the special guests are very insightful into their specific fields and it's great to learn about the different aspects of marketing. Keep up the wonderful content. Hey Mark, you keep it up, man. You keep up listening. Keep up doing what you're doing, being who you are, man, and hit me up on the Facebook's so you can get yourself that podcast white box. Okay, our special guest for this episode is Corey Kavanewski. Corey is a veteran in the Mortgage business having been in it since 2002 and he's been a top-ranked Mortgage professional based down in Coronado, California for quite a number of years. And for 2019, he's tracking 220,400 units. So he's had a nice significant growth over his 2018 numbers. But those are just some amazing figures and that production amount, right? That number of families that he's helped is personal volume production. It's not coming from a team that he has out originating on his behalf. And what you'll find about Corey is that he's built a very traditional Mortgage origination model that is largely based on trusted referral partner relationships and we unpack kind of his strategies for doing that. A lot of our focus is around financial planners. He talks about, while he is on Zelo for reviews, right, Zelo is not his business model, not everybody's right for Corey, not everybody's right for you and your business model. So that's a great lesson to take out of this. But we have a nice straight up conversation about building, like I said, this high trust, high referral, high conversion style of a Mortgage originator business. And Corey's also licensed in 25 states, which for him equates to about 10 loans per month on average, possibly even more 10 loans on month per average that he's originating because he's licensed in personally in 25 different states and his company's licensed in 50 states. So an incredible achievement from Corey and Corey's with CMG Financial and just killing it, rocking it and doing some amazing things. So let's get into this week's show Corey, welcome to the show. Thanks so much. I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to have you, especially knowing you're incredibly busy schedule. You were doing some incredible things down there in the beautiful city of Coronado, California, which is one of my favorite places to visit whenever I'm back in Cali. But let's do this for the listeners. You know, it's funny and prepping for this. I was just checking out your social media and things like that and you've obviously been interviewed a number of times. And why don't you do this? Just a quick, your personal background, how long you'd have been in the biz, what was 2018 units and volume for you and just kind of get into that however you want. Okay, sure. Yeah. Well, thanks. I've been in the business since 2002, 2018 dollar volume was around $150 million. And as far as the units, I'm going to do a little math here, about 320 units, yeah, 320 units. What's the bulk of that, the source of that business? Well, there's not one bulk source, but there's sort of three big ones. First of all, database management. I'm huge on that. So we're constantly sort of mining the database, keeping in touch with our customers. That's a big one. So just people coming back, hey, I'm moving over here now, I'm refinancing this. I need to, you know, buy a rental, second home, whatever. So a lot of that, a lot of financial planner business as well. I find that my business aligns really well with financial planning and I've done that sort of on on purpose and that's sort of the way financial advisors, good ones run their business is the way I like to run mine, you know, so a very professional, very good communication. Those are things that I spend a lot of focus on and value at. Not price so much value at is really, so I find that financial advisors align really well with that. And then real estate agents for and a different group of real estate agents probably than your average wise, you know, definitely I'm working with the realtors that really get it and understand the value that we add and appreciate that for them and for their customers. So those are the big, that's the bulk of it, those three. Yeah, and I know there's, we're going to focus on a financial planner aspect in just a couple of minutes because I think you're doing some pretty cool things there. And you say realtors that get it and understand the value add, so right, this is a debate that's been going on since the dawn of time, right, about value you're bringing, so what do you mean by value add from your standpoint to realtors? Well, for realtors, my value add really is is that, you know, if I say I can do something we do it, you know, we don't close later than we say we will, we don't say yes and say, well, there's a stag, we got to make a change. We have a very consistent loan process that takes sometimes more time on the front side, but that delivers results at a rating of nearly 100%. So the realtor that gets it is the realtor that says, you know, look, I understand that there may be a better rate or something more attractive elsewhere, but the risks are not worth it in the consistency and the results that we get going this direction are worth it, you know, and really good realtors understand that. The best realtors I work with are not necessarily the highest producing realtors, although they are significantly productive, but they are realtors that are very efficient and that provide a very good service and that do very well because they have partly because they have a reliable group of professionals that they can bring in to help them. They're team mates, we're partners, you know, and so they can sort of rinse and repeat, you know, really well when they know everything that's going to, you know, how it's going on and how it's going to work and all of that. So yeah, and they also happen to be the best at directing business or referring business. Yeah, so now that's an excellent point right there. And that goes back to I think what you say, the realtors that get it because you could work with a lot of realtors and you probably have turned down some realtors in your career, right? Yeah, all the time. Yes. How do you get to that point where you're saying no to realtors is that after a conversation you find out that they're not the right fit, not the right mindset, how do you usually reach that decision? Well, yeah, I mean, typically it's, you know, through maybe working on a transaction or two and, you know, seeing that maybe their expectations maybe aren't in line with what yours would be. And typically when that happens for me, what I do is I just, I have a meeting with them and make sure that we're on the same page and they may tell me that, you know, they want something different than what I'm able or willing to do, you know, and in those cases, I just, you know, I politely kind of close those and say, you know, I just don't think this is really a good way for us to proceed, you know, which is I think is totally okay, you know, and really doesn't, I don't think that that should be offensive or anything. I think that there's, you know, hundreds of millions of people in the world and we're not going to get along or work well with all of them. I mean, it's just that's that's that's right, you know, so how can one person be expected to, you know, fit the mold or the needs of all these different people, right? I kind of run my business a certain way and there's a lot of people that like that and I choose to work with those people. Those who wouldn't, you know, I think it's just fair that we don't, you know, and we identify those situations typically through in a transaction or two and seeing something maybe isn't right and having a conversation. If that conversation results in, hey, I get it, I love it, let's do it, then great, we do it, you know, by the if it's head, I kind of disagree and I need it this way and when I say jump, I need you to say how high and all that, then, you know, we just typically don't, don't move any further forward with those. Yeah, and so when you say things to me like, you know, realtors get it, a bunch of different things come to mind, but one of them is, you know, like I talked a while back and interviewed somebody and tried to position, you know, you and I, I think I have gone to similar schools of thought or training and coaching, you know, Todd Duncan being one of them, which is the whole high trust sales and partnering to use those words as you, you know, as you've described. And I always liked to make my number one value proposition, right? Like you said, my process, the value, a referable experience, right? Which is what I'm trying to create. Do you, a couple of questions in here, I guess number one, do you think that's valid? Do you have realtors who say, you know what, dude, that's just table stakes, you should have that great of an experience? Because what I'm leading up to is, you know, the realtors back to your original statement of agents who get it, does that mean you don't get sucked into the vortex of, hey man, you know, play the play, Zelo leads. So I know I threw a lot at you there, but how do you respond to kind of that? Yeah, I mean, that, that, I don't participate in that in the Zelo lead. And that's partly because I don't believe in Zelo really. It's not so much that I don't believe in, and maybe sponsoring or investing in something that, you know, could be mutually beneficial for both a real turn alone officer. So there are lots of things I'm more than happy or invest in to Zelo is not really one of them. I think by the way, any any particular reason, oh, absolutely, Zelo is not my model. I mean, Zelo is not a value ad type of place. I mean, you go to Zelo to do one thing and one thing only, and that is take, take, take, and really, and you, I mean, what do you go to Zelo for? I mean, I go to Zelo every single day, I've never, I don't pay them, you know, so I'm going there and just getting information because they've got information. And then I take that information and I use it the way I want to. So, you know, the generally the customer is that come off of Zelo where they're, where they're really heavily, you know, reliant on Zelo for sort of everything, that's just not my customer. They're not going to see the value that I have, right? They're, they're looking for cheapest and they're talking to a million people all at once and they're fine with burning people's time and not really ever proceeding with anything. So, you know, it's just not really, yeah, the sort of model match that I be. Do you, do you have reviews on Zelo? Absolutely. Okay, that's interesting. I'm going to, I'm going to, if I recall, you've got a pretty significant amount, don't you? Absolutely. So, Zelo, then in that context, provide some kind of value for you there. Absolutely. As I said, I mean, I like, like many other people, I'm benefiting from Zelo. Okay. But you just said it's not your model. Right. The model to go advertise on Zelo? Okay. Try to get leads from Zelo's platform is, you know, it's 10%. You know, it's one out of, one out of 10 that convert, right? Zelo, for me, the reviews being on Zelo there are, those reviews are speaking to the clients that I'm, that I am working with, right? Because they're googling and they're finding that stuff. They're not, they're not entering their data into Zelo and saying, hey, find me a house, find me a realtor, find me a lender, you know. Yeah, anyways. Well, my clients are, well, people are, people are, yeah, but your clients are, so help me understand that when you say your clients are, are you telling me your clients aren't going to Zelo in searching? I mean, they absolutely are. What I'm saying is they're not going into Zelo putting in their private information and saying, have some random person call me. Hmm, they're not doing that. Even in the case of finding a real estate agent. The clients that I'm working with are not finding realtors from Zelo. Correct. How are they finding them, do you know? Yeah, through the same sort of networks that I mentioned that I derived my business from, so trust the people that they know. So like from very, very, very rare that I work with someone who found their realtor on Zelo. Is that all right? And obviously you know this because you've probably had some dialogue with them that reveals. Absolutely. Yeah, I, yeah, absolutely. Interesting. All right, so let's get back to your mind. I'm just trying to like multitask your look at your reviews online because I guess let me ask you this. Have you ever had somebody when you ask them, you know, why did you choose me? What do you usually hear back? If I ask them, why do they choose me? Yeah. I don't really ask that, but I get, I guess I get the answer through different ways, but not by asking why you chose me. Typically it's, you know, you were highly recommended by so-and-so who had a good experience, right? That's usually one big factor. And you know, the sort of value of that individual who referred, right? So like I got an email right before I called you or dialed into this meeting where someone said, you know, I know and work with so-and-so as a co-worker and I really trust them and know that they're good stuff. So they said to call you so I'm calling you. You know, I get that a lot. Yeah, I would say that's the most common sort of response. You're usually coming, coming to people are coming to you by way of a trusted source. They are. And then what they do, I believe in many cases, is they Google me, right? Then they're going to look at your reviews and all that stuff. And now the reviews are supplemental to what they've already been told. So one guy said, you're great. Then I went online and everyone said you're great. So I'm here. Yeah. Interesting. But they're not going to sell in entering their information and having, you know, 180 lenders call them in the next, you know, three, for the next three weeks until time, you know. Yeah, yeah, that's a wonderful process, too. I'm curious then what we're on this thread. Then what is your take on the whole, this is kind of very relevant for me lately. You know, the discussion around digital disruption, you know, obviously, Zilla, now mortgage companies and the competition for attention for consumers. Where's your thought pattern around that? Do you have any concerns or does that mean you're adjusting your model in any way? No, and not really. And I, you know, I suppose we'll all find out, right? But, you know, if you look at someone like Quicken, right, who is, you know, from a marketing perspective, brilliant, from a call center perspective has executed better than any other, really. And who ranks number one in terms of loan volume nationally? I don't consider them a disruption to me at all. You know, are they getting a good, good stake of the, a good share of the pie? Absolutely. Sure. But you're doing fine with them in the market. Yeah, right. And really, you know, selling someone the other day, it's like, you go to the store and you look at milk. Okay. And how many options do you have now at this point? Right, with milk. So you've got, you know, all different types of milk and different options, right? And, you know, the regular milk guys, they're still there, some of milk, you know, but there's a market for them, right? And, and I think that, you know, our industry is, is similar. There is room for different models to operate. Some people are going to go and push button and get mortgage with a rocket from a guy that, you know, doesn't shave yet, who's in a call center in Ohio. Some people are going to do that and they're going to be good with it, right? And that's just, and they're, and that's fine. And that works for them. And then there's the other person that really wants to come in. I mean, I have, I have clients on a regular basis who say, you know, I'd love to talk with you about this over the phone, but I'm really more of a face-to-face person. When can I come in? So, I mean, there's people, not everybody wants to do that. I get that. I'm not trying to help everybody, right? So I believe that there will be, you know, room for Zelo to do its thing. There will be room for me to do, to do mine and quick in and all of us to operate in this marketplace and share in that business, you know? So I don't, I don't view Zelo as a, as a threat. And in fact, as you pointed out to some degree, I benefit from that. Yeah, yeah. And, and my model is such that, you know, it may not have value if there isn't someone else doing it differently, right? So they, you know, they kind of make me look good in some cases, right? Yeah, that's a good point, actually. I mean, that's why we have all the choices we do in milk or, you know, mortgage progressions, whatever. That's right. Yeah. What, then I'm, I guess, last question on this thread, then we'll jump into the financial planner model you have. Knowing that you've got what, a largely, if I will, correct me if I'm wrong, what I will kind of articulate as a largely referral based business, right? From trusted relationships and referral partners you've built up. I mean, Zelo, our conversation about Zelo with your reviews and stuff like that is a little bit plain to this, but I'm just curious for you in general. Are you consciously, you know, trying to personally, personally, brand you, Cory, right? Your name and face are, you know, I mean, are you cognizant of that and trying to create those connection intersection points with your, you know, potential marketplace? Yeah, but more with people that, you know, we're, we're sort of warm with already. You know, so I, we spend a good amount of energy marketing to people we know and that like us and that we like and we put a lot of energy there and our resources there. I don't have banner ads. I don't have print ads that we're mailing to farm lists in certain areas. You're not doing a lot of like social video and that kind of stuff. We do some. Yeah, we do some. And then, you know, when we boost that to stuff that's close to us, you know, not geographically close, but like close, you know, because that's who I think I'm going to have the greatest amount of influence with and yeah, that's really, that's really why. So, you know, we, we probably market more than your average loan officer, you know, we do multiple mailings every, you know, we're probably doing eight mailings a year, half of which have some sort of giveaway in them and those mailings are going to thousands of people. These are people that we know and that we've worked with. These are direct mail. It is direct mail, but I mean, it's direct mail again to people that we know. Yeah, right, right. Just to make sure it was like a hard copy of mail, not email. Yeah, no, no, mail, hard mail. Yep. Yep. Yep. And, you know, phone calls for a year personal phone calls to every past customer to check in on things and also we always have sort of a reason for calling. So, every time there's a, there's a reason we don't just call and say, hey, how are you with your loan and, you know, because you know, at some point it's like, I don't, you know, you can stop calling, right? But all with some reason to call. Right. There's a bunch of things that we do, but we put a lot of resources and a lot of energy into marketing to those we are already tight with, already close with. Well, it's funny because I was kind of read a quote the other day that talking about like, you know, your future clients and things like that and that don't overlook the primary, most likely source of your future business and that is within your CRM. That's right. And I don't know if that was for me or from someone else, but when I'm speaking with loan officers, I, you know, I'm in realtors too. I'm oftentimes just sort of confused as to why people want to go into these new directions all the time when they're not covering their own bases at home. You know, so I hear things like, I want to do a Facebook seminar and we're going to send a farm list and we're going to have a title company and we're going to try and get us people and and that's great, you know, and go and speak in front of a group and hopefully pick up some new customers. That's awesome. But to me, that is, that is phase two. You do that after you are absolutely crushing it with those people that already know you, that already like you, that already do business with you. And if you're not doing everything you can in that department, then I don't see any reason to skip that and go out to a bunch of cold people that you don't know and try and convince them of things that the people you know already know, right? But that is a, which again is why I don't go to Zilla. I'd rather put my energy into people that I know and, you know, don't convince. Yeah, for sure. All right, let's transition a little bit for a second time into one of the main kind of focuses of your business model. I wrote this down last time. We talked because I love the talk crack on this. So I guess we're going to get into some scripting here, perhaps. But I love you took me through last time kind of the conversation and dialogue you have when taking a 10 or three with people that opens up opportunities, you know, for access to CPAs, for example, right, tax planners. Right. You remember that conversation? You're like, yes, I've said it a thousand times. Yeah. So are you still taking apps yourself before we get into kind of give me what your process is there? Yeah, I take 99% of the apps that we fund myself. And I do them by phone and it's old school. And you know, I get people sometimes who ask me about an online app and I explain why that's not going to be a great option. I don't ever get any pushback on that. The only time we do online apps is if our borrower is in China or something like that. And even then, I try not to do it. I try to do it this way, you know, with adjusting for a time change and get together this way. I feel like that's a very critical part of the process. And to start off electronically, you know, I don't think is it. I think you can do most of the loan process electronically and be pretty efficient and everything. But I think that first initial meeting and application should be either face to face or over the phone done by the loan officer. You know, and so that's that's what I do. Did you say at some point in the process though, you're also having Zoom conversations? Absolutely. So yeah, like I said, like this, like Zoom, we do Zoom meetings if the client is open to it. I would say, I don't know, maybe 25, 30% of our loan applications are actually via Zoom just like this. You know, so that we can you know, see each other. And I don't know, it just, I mean, I'm here. I am in my office, right? It's I'm not in a garage. I'm not at this Starbucks, you know, talking about your private information with my friends around, you know, it's just it goes a long way for people to see you to know, to know that you're in a professional working environment and everything. Well, you know this. It's like it's like the acceleration of trust face to face. You can read facial language body, you know, all that kind of stuff. You're going to get the trust is going to be much higher if you can actually see the person. That's right. I think that makes a lot of sense. Take me through if you could just, you know, high level overview of I love that conversation you have before about when you're walking people through the loan app and you're asking the questions about, you know, their financial advisor situation, whatever and how you pivot that into building your, you know, business model. Sure. Well, so there's a little bit of detail here. But, you know, I find that again, there's a lot of value in getting to know who your clients know or who your referral sources know. You know, it's that whole seven, you know, degrees of separation thing where you can find more opportunity within probably that discussion that you're having with that customer and probably better to spend your time doing that than to go start a new campaign to find new people that you don't even know. So what we'll do is when we're talking to a customer about a potential loan is an effort to sort of make the process easier for them. And frankly, easier for us to some degree is we'll find out who their sort of key partners are or advisors are really right. So we're going to ask them about a financial advisor. We're going to ask them about a CPA. We're going to ask them about a realtor. We're going to ask them about insurance. And we're going to ask them about their trust. Okay. Because these are all things that are, we're probably going to have to deal with at some point during the loan process. But beyond that, there is also opportunity for me to help them. So if I know who their CPA is, I can call their CPA and get their tax returns. That helps the customer. But it also opens up that dialogue between me and the CPA where maybe we talk about anything that we need during the loan process, but also maybe the potential for future business or just benefiting that particular customer down the road. So for example, we send out closing statements to the CPA after closing. It's, you know, we do it on every single loan. And they're oftentimes just like, oh, wow, you have baffled by why we're, you know, doing that or why no one else is doing that, I guess, maybe more than anything. But we make friends that way, right? And so we, and we help our customer because we make the process easier. Now, some clients don't have CPAs. In which case, I've got a CPA that I can connect them with if that's something that they're interested in, right? So, and we go down the line with, with, you know, financial planners and, and real estate agents and insurance agents and things like that. Yeah, well, I want to get specific here for a moment for those listening because I'm a big believer in, you know, like this, where's this book right here? Just got this from Chris Smith, exactly what to say when to say it, because the worst thing, worst time to figure out what to say is in the moment you need to say it. So, you have this wonderful kind of transition where you're asking people about, you know, their tax plan or CPA, whatever. And if they say they don't have one, that's the opportunity that you kind of engage in and offer up you to refer one to them, right? Absolutely. Yeah. And it allows me to feed back the, the trusted, you know, partners that we are working with that are oftentimes referring us as well. Yeah, how often do you find that people take you up on that? Very often. In fact, you know, over, you know, I've really kind of built my business so that I'm somewhat of a gatekeeper, I suppose. And, you know, we, we get people who are requesting information like that, you know, months after closing, you know, coming to us and saying, Hey, who would you advise as a trust attorney or a financial advisor, which is really speaks volumes about, you know, how, again, how we're conducting our business because people trust us to the degree that they would not only ask us about a mortgage, but also ask us about something else important. That is, uh, you know, in relation to their finances. So, yeah, it's very, it's very common. And when you offer, I mean, when I've probably done that a few times today, when you offer that information, people really, you know, are appreciative of having a good connection and a solid referral, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then on the flip side, financial advisors, yeah. Yeah. And on the flip side, what you're doing is also leveraging if they do have a CPA themselves, then you're kind of alluded to this a moment ago, but offering, you know, you basically say something that, you know, would you mind if I, you know, connect with them and introduce myself because we're going to be working through the transaction and it's a matter of fact, it'll help it go smoother for you. That's right. Yeah. I mean, because, you know, how many times is a loan officer do you ask a customer for tax returns and they send you half of the tax return at the cover page? And that's frustrating for the customer, right? I mean, you're expecting them to understand it, know it and send it and review it and all that. And so it's like, why don't I just take this off your hands? You know, you're, you're self-employed, you're going to have a K1, you're going to have an LLC, you're going to have these things. Why don't I just go and get everything I need directly from the financial advisor or from the CPA? Right. Would that make it easier for you? And, yeah, most of the time they say, absolutely. Sometimes they say, you know, my CPA is going to charge me to send these things to you or whatever. So in some cases, we actually don't do that, but we always make it an option for the customer. And then at some point, but perhaps if you're talking about that CPA, you try and go for a meeting? Sure. I mean, if, if our customer who was referred by someone else that we know and trust, right, we've got this chain, you know, if our customer says this CPA is fantastic, well, then I kind of want to know that CPA. The same way that financial advisor might have referred me. And so this mortgage guy's amazing, you know, I like to, you know, not only run my business that way, but I operate that way in my personal life, right? So, you know, if I'm going to call a dentist, I'm going to ask, you know, someone, maybe who goes to them or someone that I know, who do you go to? So, yeah, I mean, we, we find that to be a really good way to meet new people that could actually be of service to our customers down the road. Interesting. And, of this CPA is, you know, financial people that you work with, I know it's hard for you to answer, but I got to kind of go for details. Can you assess or give a rough estimate of the percentage that you work with that came from that process right there? Yeah, it's not a huge percentage. I would say it's, you know, maybe it's 10%, or something like that. So, when we, when we, most of this is a customer benefit, you know, calling the CPA and having that, you know, discussion with them and getting the tax returns directly from them, you know, a lot of times that's where that ends. And that's partly due to probably our lack of maybe persistence or follow-up or interest. And maybe partly because, you know, look, they're busy and they're just trying to get you what you need, you know, and that's okay. I mean, we're not, again, we're not trying to work with everybody, you know, we're looking for really great fit. So, this is not a shotgun thing where we say, okay, well, we want to get a hundred CPAs in our database. We're really looking for good ones. We don't want to refer people who aren't great, you know, so we sort of see if there's a synergy with them, you know, and then if there is, then we maybe try to do a meeting and see where that goes and yeah. And roughly, again, you know, how many CPAs would you say are in your short list? Oh, probably 15. 15, yeah. And that that's probably sustained you quite a bit then those 15. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And there's way more financial advisors. I mean, CPAs are, it's really hard to find, you know, not only good CPAs that CPAs that are going to be working. Yeah, exactly, right. They're unique individuals. Yeah, right. In the cases. That's very cool. Okay, great. That's good strategy. What is your process? I don't know if it's similar to you because you've got kind of a mature business, you know, your core base of real estate agents. Are you in proactive recruiting mode for real estate agents? I don't know, probably not as much as some loan officers are. Yeah, I mean, again, I'm really all about good fit. I mean, I look at that first before production, all of that. I mean, we work with some very, very good realtors that don't produce at a high level because they don't really necessarily want to, but they're great to work with. And then we work with some others that produce an extremely high level. And they're, and they're also great to work with. That's the common denominator is, you know, them understanding the value out that we provide. And, and that there's a good synergy and that we can complement each other well. So I'm kind of always looking for that opportunity where there's a good synergy and there's a good, yeah, just kind of common way of doing business. And then if there is, then we kind of go and try to sort of secure a relationship with those people. But you know, that's one in five. It's, yeah, it's not like we're going after everybody. Right, right. And then I guess lastly here, just in terms of kind of overall sources of business, you are licensed in 25 states, is that right? Yeah. So that's, that's been huge for for me as well is just diversifying, you know. And so yeah, I'm personally licensed in 25 states or companies licensed in 50. So really I can get loans done anywhere and I do. I get loans in every single state. We get them done. I don't only do the ones I'm licensed in because we've got other people in the office or licensed in other states. And it's very rare that we get, you know, Kentucky's like the one that we really don't have a lot of coverage or answers for. But yeah, so that's been huge. You know, financial advisors, realtors, clients, past clients, you know, they know that we're licensed all over. And they've got, I mean, everyone knows someone who's retiring, buying a vacation home, buying a rental, getting transferred for work, military, all that, right? It's very common. And to just say, hey, sorry, you can't help you because you're out of, because I don't want to do the work to get licensed or I don't want to spend the money to get licensed is an oversight in my opinion. So I just started by getting licensed in a few states where it was really common. That I would get requests like in Arizona, Nevada, you know, Colorado. Yeah, Colorado is another one where it's like, you know, like a reciprocal sort of state. And out of those, and then before you know, it's like, hey, can you do a loan in Texas now? Can you do a loan in Florida, right? So just as I had demand, even just a little bit, I would add the state. I mean, now I'm active in, you know, in Virginia and Florida, New Hampshire or Connecticut and Texas. And it's funny, but, you know, once you have that, the license, you know, you'll find there is a need, you know, and we market that. So I mean, I really am marketing constantly, you know, that I'm your local national mortgage lender. And on the national business piece, you know, it's, you know, I really get to add value even more there because, you know, let's just say that you live in San Diego and you're moving to Florida. That's a, that's a new place for you, right? A lot of new there, right? You've got a new realtor, you know, someone through someone else said something about them. And so, you know, you, you maybe contacted them, but it's a new area. It's a new school. There's all this new stuff, right? And, and so if I can be your mortgage person when you're moving somewhere new, it's just that little bit of comfort now that you have. And all of a sudden, it's like, great, I'd love to work with you. And I don't want to go into the unknown, right? So, yeah, I found that to be a big, big advantage for us. What percentage of your business is from out of state, out of California? Well, it's not from out of state, but it's done out of state. Sorry, sorry. Yeah, this would be clear. Yeah. We do about 10, I do about 10 units a month out of state. So it's probably, I don't know, you know, 15, 20% 10 units a month out of state. Wow, that's really good. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a lot. And it's probably, and it may even be more. I mean, we're constantly doing loads of other states. Yeah. And most of that is because of prior relationships, like you said, people, yeah, no one's calling us from Florida saying, I hear you guys are great. I shouldn't say that because as we're talking, I just got a call from a Arizona realtor who left a message with my assistant saying that they've got an Arizona client that wants help. And so it does happen, but it's not, it's not as common, you know, and certainly as we get into different time zones, it becomes less common. So yeah, we don't really get people calling us from Florida saying, hey, I heard you were great, you know, it happens, but not a lot. What are your plans for next year, 2020? Do you have growth plans? Do you want to do additional volume and units? Yeah, so I don't know, additional volume and units, I'll do about 225 million this year in in personal volume. And I, you know, I don't know that we'll do more than that next year, probably not. If, you know, somewhat dependent on rates, I suppose, but yeah, we do have plans to grow the team. So in fact, we just took on some more space and the construction is being done, as we speak, it'll be done in about two weeks. So we are adding a few people, both on the sales and operations side. So that should be good. What's the goal, by the way, not to interrupt, but what's the goal with the people? What kind of roles are they going to play? Yeah, a couple of loan officers and a couple of ops people. So one processor, another closer, I have an in-house closer, which is really a big advantage as well, but we'll add another one. Another sales assistant and a few loan officers. And, you know, when I'm looking at these positions, is the same thing as I'm looking at real-terge or financial advisors. It's all about the fit. It's not about the production. It's not about anything else. It's all about the fit. Right. I don't, we don't have turnover here. You know, if we don't have loan officers leaving, we have people who are really happy and really like the process and what we do and not, and all play well together. And that's what I'm looking for. So I'm not looking for the biggest producer just because we want someone that really sees the value in what we do and will work well with it. You know, and that's what we've got. We've got a great group of people that all work well together, that all see the value in what we do and how we do it. And, you know, no big egos or attitudes or anything like that. It's really very special. What aspect of this business is most enjoyable for you? Talking to customers, advising them, you know, I just had this 10 minute call today. It was supposed to be 10 minute call that turned into about an hour call and there was no loan to get out of it. But, but just advising, right? I really, really like that. I like being able to teach people things. That's why I manage an office. You know, I'm often asked, why do you manage a group of loan officers when you're doing 225 million of personal production? And it's, it's the, in Amara, I guess I have with teaching and showing and, you know, why am I doing this podcast? Same thing. You know, I mean, I enjoy that. I enjoy sharing what I've learned. And, you know, when I was new in this business, I was, I was, inevitably, you know, obsessed with to a scary level with Tim Breen. And, you know, I watched him and everything that he, he did in his videos and at the time was kind of low tech. But what, the time was high tech for that, for that now, if you consider low tech. But I learned a ton. And I spent my Friday and Saturday nights watching him and talking in front of the mirror. And I mean, you know, all that stuff, practicing the scripts in the lines. Yes. Yeah. And, and, and, and how to separate, you know, yourself and, and all of that. Yeah. So, you know, I feel like to some small degree, I may be giving back by doing some of the teaching and things like that. Yeah, man. You're paying it forward. And it's funny. It's a very similar path because Tim was one of my kind of early mentors from afar. Had the chance since then to meet him. And of course, he's been on the podcast. I think a year ago, but yeah, I always love Tim's style as an approach. Very different, different kind of vibe, different, you know, style and talk track. And definitely, I think, higher level, you know. What do you do in terms of like, do you do anything that, you know, so I know this, what you enjoy most about the businesses, the, the education and, and the advising. Do you have fun in this business meaning incorporate, like, socially related activities, community events or happy hours and things like that? Yeah, I don't really do much of that. Yeah. So I'm not out there rubbing shoulders or elbows, as I say, with a lot of either people in the business or, or, or, or even outside that could be potential referral source, you know, I, I spend a great deal of time working on my business and working with my team. And, you know, that accounts for the majority of my, of my, of my waking hours. And then, you know, and then it's family after that ship. I'm not super active out in any big groups or anything like that. Well, I guess let me close it out with this thought then be back to the mentorship thing. You know, Tim Brahim was the guy for you early on. Who or, you know, what are your resources today for learning or growth? I don't know if it's a particular coach, if it's a book or something like that or a person. Yeah, you know, for me, it's, it's, it's business owners that are successful in what they do. It doesn't have to be in the mortgage business. I kind of feel like the mortgage business, I don't claim to know everything, but I feel like I've got a good grasp on that. And I find a lot of interest in learning about business in general and how people do things and how they acquire customers and how they retain and how they provide service and stand out and separate. And so, you know, I've got friends and family members that are business owners and successful in what they do. And so I oftentimes look to them. I do have a coach. And, you know, I am a huge Todd Duncan fan, although he's not my coach. I'm a huge fan of what he does. And by the way, a lot of what he does, I do as well. And we're very similar. And some degree, that's why, you know, I coach with some other people just to get different perspectives, right? But yeah, those are the people, you know, that I love to. Are you coaching with a mortgage-specific coach or more of a business coach? Yeah, no, it's a mortgage coach. Yeah. Got it. Very cool. Awesome, man. Cool. Well, listen, I know you're very busy. So I appreciate you making the time and just jump it on here and share in some of, you know, your strategies for success, your mindset and all that kind of stuff and your business plan and process. And what I love about you, what's refreshing, and, you know, you might not be exposed to this as much as I am, but, you know, there's a lot of noise in the industry about, you know, doing business a certain way. And like, that's why I asked you the questions related to like online and social media and stuff. Yeah. And I love it. It's a little bit kind of the alternate, you know, the opposite answer where it's like, you know, do business the way that you enjoy doing business. And that's how you're probably going to succeed. Yeah, I mean, I tell my kids all the time, you know, be you, right? And so, you know, why do I not go to these big community functions and make a big, make that a big part of my business? It's just not really me. I just certainly do some of it, but it's just not really me. Why, why not, you know, make a big, big presence on Zillow and things? It's just not really me, you know? And so while it may be a decent way to get business, it's just not for me, you know? And so, it took a long time, but I really, you know, built a business that runs the way naturally I would want to be treated as a customer and how I would operate as a customer. If I was going to buy a home or do something real major like that, I would not put it in the hands of the call center guy quick in. Some people will, and that's, and that's okay, but that I wouldn't do business that way. And so I run my business the way I would want to be treated as a customer if I was the customer in that business. And I'm a tough customer. So I feel like, you know, I run it well, but, you know, you can't, you know, go online and get a rate quote with me and get your mortgage with the push button thing, you know? So it's not for everybody and I'm good with that. Awesome, man. Well, if anybody wants to kind of reach out to you or whatever, where do you suggest that they go? Should I put links in the show notes? Do you want them to go to your Facebook page, your website? Sure. Yeah, go to the Facebook page. And if anyone uses Facebook anymore, I don't know. True, but come on, man. Just a billion people a day. That's all. Okay. All right. Well, yeah. So that's a, that's a great place and you can message me there or whatever. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Well, listen, again, appreciate you being here and as always listeners, we appreciate you tuning in and you're going to do if you like this episode or any of the episodes. Hey, leave us a little reviews out on the socials. We appreciate you and we'll see you on the next one. Hey guys, what's up real quick? You've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before and you just want to quickly remind you if that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased loans, you need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase business for you. Well, good news. 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