Ep 149: How to Stay Relevant in the Digital Era

In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with real estate agents is essential for success. However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge. With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections. Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read. Chris has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals. And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business. To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy of the case study today. You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too. Don't miss out. Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio. Brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute, your number one source for truth in Mortgage Marketing. Hey, listeners. What's up? This is Jeff. This is for your host once again for another episode of Mortgage Marketing Radio. So glad you're here. Glad you tuned in. Oh, you are, too. I'm pretty confident you're going to be glad you tuned in for this one. And listen, if you're lucky in any of the episodes, would you do me a favor? Take a moment and join 175 other people and leave us a review. Why? Well, number one, it tells me that what we're doing makes a difference for you that you're getting value from the podcast sessions. Number two, it does help us reach more people and that's ultimately, ultimately, our goals to reach more people have a bigger impact in the industry. So wherever you're listening to this podcast, listening app, if you want to go to our Facebook page and join our private Facebook community for the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast, go ahead and tune in there. And you can be like Zach W623, great stuff. He says, love learning new methods and systems for being a better lender in my area. Well, thank you to Zach W623 who left us that podcast review. He's getting himself a swag box. So long as he messages me on Facebook, right, instant messenger, leaves me his mailing address and t-shirt size, he's going to get a swag box or the t-shirts and stickers and other cool stuff we're putting in there. It's a thank you for you taking five minutes out of your life and let us know that the podcast is making a difference for you. This helps both of us. So hopefully you think that's a fair exchange of your time for some fan swag. There you go. That's that. And as always, you can check out more if you're interested in becoming a pro member being a modern mortgage originator. If you want to learn how to get more agent referrals in less time, if you want to learn how to build your personal brand, leverage online, social media, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Facebook ads, join our growing community of modern mortgage marketing professionals over at the mortgagemarketing.pro website. Check that out. It might be for you. All right. So on to this week's episode, my special guest. This is a long time coming. He's grown to be a friend of mine over like the last year and a half or so. We actually originally connected, I think, in person at the Gary V. agent 2021 event in Miami of January in 2019. And he's doing some amazing things. And I know he's got his heart in the right place as I do for mortgage originators in this space, the mortgage space. And who am I talking about? I'm talking about Mr. Phil Tredwell. He's a VP of development, a regional manager. He's a national speaker, a podcaster in his own right. He hosts the mortgage marketing expert podcast, which we're going to put links to that in the show notes. He is the VP over at Mason McDuffie mortgage helping mortgage originators throughout the central region, coaching and developing them and helping them level up their skills, become modern originators. Also he is the co-founder of something called the industry syndicate, which I am a proud member of. And it's the industry's first media network for podcasts, Alexa flash briefings and live social media shows. What I love about what they've just recently launched is they have this cool mobile app both for Android and iPhone that if you're looking for more good content like you're getting on here, let's face it. There's other voices out there that you can go check out. And the industry syndicate is the easiest way for you to do that. They've got real estate shows, mortgage shows, title, appraisal, right. And lots of good things coming down the pipe from them as well. So you can go check them out at industrysyndicate.com or check the show notes for more info on that. But Phil and I just have kind of a great conversation about what's happening in the industry. How to deal with either yourself, right, little self awareness over those around you. It might be a romantic about the past. We have a conversation about some interesting data about where what factors go into influencing somebody's decision on choosing a lender. And we cite a couple of different studies and references that you might find useful and valuable in there. We'll put those links in the show notes as well for you to download those studies by Fannie May and some others. But I think you'll enjoy this conversation as much as I did in helping you level up your skills as a modern mortgage professional. So with that said, let's get into this week's show. Phil Treadwell, welcome to the show. Man, I appreciate being here. This is awesome. Long time coming. Yeah. It's a long time coming. We have known each other for what? A good year and a half or so now we met at a couple masterminds back, I think. Yeah, man. And I think we were out. We hung out at the age in 2021. What about that? We called. Right? I can't remember what he calls it anymore. Agent 2020. Yeah. Gary V's event. Florida. That was a really good time. I can connect with you. Yeah. It was fun. All right. So you are a fellow podcaster in the mortgage industry. We're obviously going to put links to your show and all that kind of stuff, a mortgage marketing expert. And I think you do a great job at the podcast. And I love to come together in the spirit of collaboration. You know, that we're all ultimately serving the end goal, which is, which is, I think you have a passion and a heart for loan officers as do I because I've been one. You are still active in the trenches. I'm a trainer in the industry. You obviously train your leader. So with that said, how's this for a setup? How long have you been in the biz? What do you do and what do you love about it? Man, that's a great segue. So 15 years in the industry, all in origination started out as an L.O. Been a branch manager, regional manager, do not currently produce. But I do coach loan officers recruit higher and develop production in multiple states in the central part of the country. I do have a heart for the industry and moving the industry forward. Because I think that there's a lot of people that are still pretty romantic about the way the industry used to be. And as history repeats itself, we're in a different climate than we have been historically. And that's what I love about the industry is that while it is cyclical and while a history does repeat itself, we have an opportunity to put our best foot forward. When you look at the way millennials are entering home ownership, the types of things that they have an appetite for as far as efficiency in the process, communication through technology, social media, they still want a mortgage advisor. They still want someone to help them because they remember the crash. They were either at home or just out of the house when all that happened in O608, all those types of things. And so I'm most excited about the fact that over the next 24 months, we don't know what's going to happen. We know what the industry is going to look like. And so I'm more excited about helping originators and mortgage professionals build their brand and create attention and create a platform to service both the consumer and referral partner and really kind of shaking off these old reputations or old adages that a lot of mortgage professionals get stereotyped with. When you say people are romantic about how things used to be or the way things used to be done, what do you see as the areas that they stick their feet in the ground the most where they don't want to buzz, they don't want to change? I think it comes to technology is obviously the most obvious answer. I've seen a lot of leaders that say, hey, we experienced this type of mortgage environment, whether it's increasing rate environment or margin compression or a decreasing rate environment in 1999 or in 2009, and they want to apply that same business philosophy in 2019. And all three of those markets are very different. And historically, you might have been able to take the same type of strategy and apply it in the same type of cycle. And I don't think that's applicable anymore. I also think that where they stick their feet in the ground is not having to learn something new. If someone's been in the business for 20 or 25 or 30 years and they're in the twilight of their career, they don't necessarily have an appetite to invest into the technology, take the time to learn something new. There's both fiscal issues with that and time constraints to where if they spend the next two to three to five years building a completely different platform, they may or may not be able to profit from that platform. And I'm not saying that that's necessarily a bad thing. We're all in this business to make money. I'm not saying, you know, through a good money after bad or whatever euphemism you might want to use. But I think there's a lot of people that just want to act like it's business as usual, that nothing has changed and that we're servicing the same type of borrowers today as we were 10 years ago. And that's just not the case. All right. So what is different about today than the past? Well, I mean, just the way we do a mortgage, just the way you originate alone, you know, 10 years ago, I look back. That was one of my top years in production. I was doing, you know, two dozen units a month. And I was still doing paper files with a copy file that we FedExd overnight to an underwriter. And I was, you know, faxing for appraisal title and insurance. And it wasn't that, you know, there wasn't some technology there. We were doing, excuse me, online applications and we were doing things like that. But we were still doing a lot of in-person meetings. We were doing a lot of phone calls the way we were prospecting realtors was we're still, you know, taking them to coffee, saying, hey, look how good our service really is. And people hadn't adopted social media, both in their communication and marketing strategies. So just in that short year time period, you're talking about the process of the way we originate alone, the way we, you know, originate it, process it, underwrite it and fund it. All of those things are different. The way we communicate with our customers, the way we reach out and develop relationships with referral partners. And the way we market and brand ourselves, well, I mean, that's 80% of the industry right there that's completely different in just 10 short years. And if you look at the prior 30 years, a lot on to that, I would make the argument that more changed in the last 10 than it did in the 25 or 30 prior to that. And that was, you know, the timeframe of the advent of automated underwriting and, you know, a lot of the digital, you know, documents and things that we utilize on a daily basis today. All right. Okay. So you, you're role currently at Mason McDuffie is VP of development, the regional manager, you coach and develop them, right? Help them develop marketing plans and stuff like that, right? I do. Anything for marketing to branding, you know, recruiting and hiring, loan officers and branches, covers a pretty wide breadth of things, but typically on the origination and a sales side of things, marketing, developing the brand out and helping originators do the same. So then what types of things or activities are you coaching your originators to adopt or evolve to start doing? Right. So really two main things. One, personal branding is extremely important, probably more than ever. And what I mean by personal branding is reputation management is part of that. And the other is just going higher up in the funnel, you know, historically, my entire business has been in developing relationships with realtors and having them refer business and in turn, partnering with them and helping them create and convert more leads. Since then, it's different. The consumer is now, I think the National Association of Realtors, they put out their generation trends report every April. This last April, it showed that 98 or 99% of people across all generations were online at some point in the transaction looking at homes, which isn't surprising to anyone. The statistic that is surprising is about two thirds of all people across all generations started their search online before they ever talked to a mortgage professional before they ever talked to a realtor. So if you combine that with a study that philosophy, their marketing company owned by Elie Mae, they did a white page of 5,000 first time home buyers that said, where did you find your in lender? And one out of 10 said they found the lender that they closed with from their realtor as a realtor referral. So you're saying that two thirds of people are online before they ever talked to a mortgage or real estate professional. And then as a mortgage professional, I have a one in ten chance of actually capturing the deal and being the in lender when they close. Even if both of those numbers are skewed, it still creates a trend where people are starting online and they're consuming content about the process before they talk to the person that has historically referred us that lead. So what that means for originators is you have to be out there putting out content, you need to be branding yourself as an advisor, as an expert, and also just creating awareness. And a lot of that is not putting out anything, mortgage and real estate related at all. It's what you and I both coach and what you talk about with guests all the time is, documenting who you are, sharing personal stories and information, stuff that's relatable to people, stuff that's relevant to what's going on on their lives. And as you capture that attention, you're able to stay top of mind and cultivate your sphere of influence so that when they do enter the market, when they have a life event where they're buying or refinancing or moving up or selling home, you're able to be there and help them through that process. Interesting, very interesting. Yeah, speaking of data, this is a top of mind for me right now because I just pulled it down the other day. Fannie Mae does a bunch of different studies. And this one, I'm looking at right here, is their 2019 National Housing Survey. And they do a study, actually, I discovered almost every single month. But here's what's interesting about this. I'm sure we can jam on this for quite a while. So there was about a thousand people in this particular study and they called these people after they bought the home and stuff. And so what they were looking to identify is the between two categories. First time home buyers, 18 to 34, repeat home buyers, age 35 plus. And they asked, what was the most influential source of information on choice of lender? All right, it's a very relevant for those listening to this right now. And for the first time home buyers, it was broken up into three different categories. And I can put a link into this to the show notes so you guys can download it. But the first thing most influential for the first time home buyers is friends and family. So there's social networks, fear of influence, that kind of stuff. So this goes to your point about being online. And having somebody be able to talk you up, recommend you, things like that. Second choice is real estate agent. Third, most preferred web source for these first time home buyers. Zilla. Now, let me give you the second category and then we'll start to unpack all this. The repeat home buyers, these people 35 or plus, the most influential source of information on the choice of lender for people 35 plus is real estate agent. Second, personal experiences, not sure what that means, past, you know, same lender they use in the past perhaps or something like that. Third is the most preferred web source for these people 35 and over, Google. And I'm like, huh, interesting. And I love to talk about this stuff. And if you know anything about me, right, my kind of, my kind of tagline is truth and mortgage marketing because a lot of people throw stuff around out there about this and that and what's real and what's not. And I'm still an advocate for the loan officer partnering with real estate agents. Absolutely. You know, and I think this study goes to prove that. You know, so I don't know if you got any immediate feedback based on that. I do. I have a lot of feedback. So two things. One, millennials are always a topic of conversation, right? And so that study, 18 to 34, that encapsulates all of the millennial generation. I think the ages 35 to 37 and younger are millennials. Right now, they're 48% of all new mortgages. So you have almost half of the mortgage market now. They don't cover that high of a percentage of actual home purchases, but we're talking about new mortgages. That generation, as we said, went through the crash. They remember if they understand it firsthand. But to because of social media, they're the most community minded generation in history. And that study proves that concept because the biggest influence on them was friends and family, their sphere of influence, social circle. That's why we talk about having a presence online is important. And to a point that you just mentioned, if you're not putting anything out there, even if someone wants to recommend you, what do they have to show? Right? Because right now, no one wants to just give a phone number. The other thing that's interesting, one of the reasons that I started my podcast, was to create a platform or to be out there whenever I reached out to someone for recruiting purposes, I gave them something to see. Originally, that was me doing blogging so that when they googled my name, there was something out there for them to find. That transitioned to social media because no one really googles anyone anymore as much as they go look them up on social media. I think the other part of this is when we talk about going higher up in the funnel, I want to create that attention, not just for consumers, but also for referral partners. Because if you friend someone on social media and you go interact with them in a Facebook group or on their business pages at real estate professionals, it is a very uninvasive way for them to get to know you and you to get to know them so that when you do have face-to-face interaction or you do get them on the phone, you're now no longer a perfect stranger. You can talk about the fact that they took their family to the lake and taught their cousin how to wakeboard or whatever. You have something to talk to them about. The other thing is if you're going top of funnel and capturing the consumer first, you're now able to add something more valuable to a referral partner than you ever could, which is an actual pre-approved lead. You'll see these things out there about, here's how to get in front of more real tours, here's how to get more referral partners. I can get in front of any real turn, any market if I have a pre-approved buyer because that's what they're in the market to do. All of these things go together, so I love that you say that. This isn't just about doing social media for social media sake. It's not just about trying to capture millennials for that sake. All of these things work together as part of a bigger marketing and business plan, and again, it needs to be data-driven, not just because some talking head on a webinar said you needed to do XYZ. Love that. Good feedback on that. Let's open up this can of worms for a moment. The Zillow can of worms, because I know there's some people you and I know equally who would argue that, and as you know, I interview people all the time, and I ask them very specifically, like sources of business. I take a look at their Zillow presence, their online reviews. What's your take on L.O.'s having reviews on Zillow or not? Having reviews on Zillow, as far as that goes, I don't personally have a problem with. What I do have a problem with is buying leads from Zillow or partnering with realtors in offsetting their cost and paying for some of their leads with Zillow, because we're feeding the beef that's coming for us. There's a lot of talk about Amazon entering mortgage and quick and partnering with State Farm, and all these different things, all the FinTech companies and consumer direct. I feel like, and this is my personal opinion when it comes to Zillow, I'm more concerned with them that I am almost anyone else on the mortgage side, because when they purchased Morgan's Lenders of America about a year and a half ago, they could have purchased any company they wanted. They found a company that's in the Midwest that had a base of business. I knew some of the people that have worked there. I've recruited some of their folks. They picked a pretty solid mortgage banking company, and they've just kind of weighed it. People will say all the time, well, I don't even notice Zillow, I'm not competing with them, I'm not having to deal with them. That's what they want you to think. They don't want you to know that they're there lurking in the shadows, getting ready to rock your whole world. I think that that's what people need to understand is that they've been extremely methodical with how they've done this, and that should be extremely disconcerting to folks that they didn't just create a call center or go buy this huge company. They bought a small company that had a pretty good foundation, and they've waited, and they've tested, and they're creating a plan. That's the fact that we've not heard much from them is probably more concerning to me than almost anything else. Yeah, well, let's face it, it takes time from the acquisition of a company to actually pivot and convert that to what you want it to be. So yeah, make no doubt about it. They are planning, and you've seen the interviews with Rich Barton CEO of Zillow as a new guys can look these up online. I mean, he is looking for the one stop shop where the consumer comes to Zillow and gets everything on one roof. And they have the industry's attention. They do. Whether you believe their, you know, zestaments, whether you like Zillow or don't like them, they are the main player in the game. Like they have all of the consumer attention and real estate and mortgage. We're talking about them all the time. And they can do whatever they want. And what we have to do, which goes back to the personal branding side of things, is if you even think about other verticals like Nike or, you know, Southwest Airlines or any of huge brands out there, the biggest challenge they have in marketing is personification. How do we take this huge brand and make it relatable to a human? How do you make it where it's relevant to an individual person? And that's why a lot of, you know, the celebrity endorsements have happened for years, but we're in a different thing where celebrity endorsements or famous people saying use that products, they don't mean as much as they used to, right? And so that's where the individual loan officers, the individual realtors and mortgage professionals can win is you can relate to them. You can be relevant and you can partner with companies and platforms to offer the same thing as that these big brands can, but you can do something they can't, which is sit down face to face. And that's really why we talk about personal branding being so important is make it relevant to your community and your local market. Yeah, 100%. So staying on the Zillow Thread for a second, I agree with you that if I was an originating loan officer today, would I want to be paying Zillow for leads? Probably not, no. I know I've interviewed some other top producing loan officers, as a matter of fact, with most recent podcast I did with Lizzie Irvine. She's doing over 800 loans this year. You know, I asked her the question about the whole Zillow thing and she had an interesting mindset about that. She's like, you know, if you're going to, if you're going to be a partner, be a partner, right? Whatever that means to you and to that partner. And I think it all comes down to like ROI, like we throw that term around. However, I think be conscious, be aware. I don't want to do a deep dive on, you know, coping for Zillow leads. I think that's a personal choice for everybody. I do think it is a, it is unwinding and unraveling in terms of its use, you know, effectiveness, if you will. I would rather probably reallocate that money to maybe doing some a targeted Facebook ad campaigns or other things like that. Yeah. Well, agreed. And when you talk about ROI or, you know, the effectiveness of those there's other places where, you know, Gary Vee talks about underpriced attention. There's lots of other places that you can take those same thousand or five thousand or however many dollars that you're paying for Zillow leads and put them other places where they are more effective where you get a higher ROI. So I agree with you. If someone wants to pay for Zillow leads or partner with a realtor on that, that that's absolutely a personal choice. The two objections I have with it personally is I'm feeding someone who's made it public that they want to take away what I do for a living. Number one, and number two, I don't think that the effectiveness of those dollars is what you have to do. I think that there's other places that you can partner and add value to realtor short of writing a check. I agree. I think more and more elbows are starting to cut the cord there for any who are listening. I would encourage you to have a different conversation. Especially if like realtors tend to look at loan officers just like a check, right? A place to make money. That's not a real partnership. We're talking about real partnerships where you're getting like the lion's share of their business. You know what I mean? You're not just one of three vendors in a row. My whole thing with the Zillow thing is this is I don't agree that you should not be putting reviews on Zillow. If you think you're beating Zillow at its game by doing that, my take on that is you're losing because to our point earlier is that the eyeballs are going to Zillow. This study just proves the fact that for first time home buyers they're looking to Zillow. And if you are found on Zillow, that's a credibility thing for you. And if you think it's like you can't even win if you're not there and oh you think like oh my god, you know what, a screw Zillow, I'm not going to put reviews on there. It's like well you're screwing yourself. Right. You know, yeah, I don't send them any money but the whole point of our conversation is today you're a personal brand. Today the largest way people find you and trust you is your credibility online, right? What are other people saying about you and the way they figure that out today is reviews. Both Zillow, both Google, right? All the places they go. So on Facebook, you can do reviews. You need as much cred and social proof as you can get today. I have a thousand percent agree and that goes back to that reputation management piece. And for the people that are community minded and they want referrals from friends and family members, make it easy for your friends and family members to refer you so that whenever they get a name, if there's nothing out there about you, they think one of two things. Either you're not doing that much business or you don't care or you're new added or something. So if you have reviews on Zillow, which we know there's attention and Zillow period, if you have reviews on your website, if you have them on social media, you're making it easy and you're making a stick your referral. Because at the end of the day, you know, Barry Habib is obviously a good friend of mine, a good friend of yours. He says the way to make more money isn't to create more leads. It's to convert more of the leads that you already have. If you're in the business, you know how to create business. So we need to be thinking about these soft skills that help you convert more of the business that you're getting. That's super important. And so that's why I love it. Do you say that? I love that you just brought up soft skills because I was pulling up a little survey here by JD Power. 2019 US mortgage satisfaction survey revealing that technology boosts satisfaction. Yes, by the process, right? Let's remove the friction, but consumers want personal interaction. According to this, the data says that only 3% of consumers rely exclusively on digital self-service channels. So they want the combination high tech to handle all the usual BS, stop loading the paperwork, the process, but I want that person that professional to deal with. Yep, 1000%. That's why I say in the beginning, when you look at human behavior of the groups that are driving the mortgage and real estate market right now, they want an efficient process. They want technology communication, but they still want a mortgage advisor to help them go through something that they have firsthand knowledge that a previous generation didn't do very well. So they just want that. And I think another thing that's important in this part of the discussion is information is a commodity. You can get anything about anything known out there that you want through YouTube video, through a blog, through whatever else. And they need someone to help them discern what of that is valuable and relevant to them. Amen to that. Yep, that is the biggest value we provide today is not the gatekeepers of information, not that we have some holy grail that they can't get elsewhere. It's helping us understand all the 100 or 200 elements that go into purchasing a home. Agreed. Crazy. All right, so how are you just real quickly? What assignments? What activities? How are you holding your people accountable to become a modern originator? What are you like saying? Dude, guys, you go to market, do this. Is it video? What is it? Yeah, it's different for everyone. There's obviously three types of content, audio, which you and I like to play in a lot video and then written. Those are the three types of content. What I tell people to do is find a medium that you enjoy consuming the content and that you're pretty good at creating the content for two reasons. If you enjoy doing it, you'll consistently do it over time. And also, you'll attract people to you that are like you and those are who you want to do business with anyway. So if some people have a natural gift for video and enjoy doing that, do it. Now, there's something to be said for challenging yourself and getting out of your comfort zone to do things that are important that maybe you just don't naturally like to do. But what I found is if someone doesn't enjoy doing it, they won't do it consistently and it's not going to give their business any lift. So let's focus on where you have some natural talent and ability and sharpen the skills around that to make you extremely effective. So as I sit down with my loan officers and as people that I talk to in coach, we determine what that is. Number one, then we determine the audience that they're trying to reach, right? Because whenever you're marketing, you have to know who your audience is. Number one, number two, what message is it that you're trying to give that audience? And then the third piece of that is determining what is the best delivery medium for that message, okay? So that may determine what social media platform you use, that may determine the type of community tactics that you have. So again, we have to know what the audience is. We have to know the type of content that that individual loan officer wants to create. And then we put together a marketing plan where they have daily, weekly, monthly activities. And the old typical coaching model was, you know, what's the income that you want to make? And let's take your comp plan and get into volume and into units and inductivities all the way down. And we combine that with a marketing plan to where it's a numbers game. If they're consistent and persistent over time, that will yield to the units and volume and income that they want. And some people, that's a checklist. Some people that is time blocking on their calendar. For me, I take time blocking in a different direction because my calendar isn't the same from week to week, I figure out what is the amount of time I want to block off on a calendar for a given thing. And I turn that into a checklist or into a kind of a check box, if you will. So for example, if I wanted to do two, three hour blocks per week on a certain task, well, that's six total hours for the week. So I'll create a checklist with 12 half hour circles. And every time I get a half an hour, I'll spend a half an hour doing it and mark what off. And then by the end of the week, I'm still able to contribute the amount of time I wanted to it, but it allows it to be flexible of different days or at night or when I'm traveling or things of that nature. So as that relates to an individual loan officer, we have to remember that each one of them is different. Every one of them has different strengths and weaknesses. And there's no one size fits all. There's conceptual things that are going to be applicable to everyone, but how that's implemented in their business is very different. So once we know the audience are trying to reach the type of content they want to create, what their income and volume goals are, we put those together and determine whether that's a checklist model, whether that's a time blocking model, or what is the way we can best keep them accountable? And we implement that plan and make tweaks as we go. It never obviously works out perfectly the first time. And they let me know how they want me to keep them accountable. Sometimes that's every week, hey, send me a list of all of those things that you said you were going to do, and accountability that you did them. And sometimes that's just every by weekly coaching call, sometimes that's results driven. But that's some tactical things that we do to make sure that we're driving the results that we need to get the right result. So are you hiring? Absolutely. We're looking for good, good loan officers and managers that are ambitious to understand what it is they're trying to do in this market for sure. Yeah, love it, love it, obviously, we'll put a link to Mason McDuffy in the show notes here. Let's pivot real quickly just for the final few minutes we have. Because as I said at the start, you are the host of the mortgage marketing expert, another great podcast in this space. We'll send a link to that. But what I really want to do is focus on kind of that bigger umbrella, if you will, the industry syndicate, which I am a proud member of. So tell us what the industry syndicate is about. Industry syndicate is a collaborative and a network of podcasts, Alexa flash briefings, social media shows that are for the mortgage and real estate industry. So the industry as a whole is the broad category of real estate that encompasses a lot of different things. And really what happened is people like just like they come to you, come to me and several other hosts and say, where do I find other shows like yours? I mean, we only have so much bandwidth. We can only put out so many episodes a week or a month. And we wanted to put a collective and collaborative together of people that were putting out good content about where the industry was going. And we knew that they were going to help mortgage professionals and real estate professionals build their business that they were like minded. So we put this syndicate together is kind of one place where people could go and find great shows, could find great content to help them build their business. And so that's parlayed into a lot of a lot of other opportunities where we now have a mobile app where people can download and interact with not only with show hosts but other people in the community that can find all the shows and things that we offer. And in 2020, we're going to have a lot of really cool announcements about some original content, some original shows that we're putting out there as well as some cool things that we're doing with our current members' shows. And I love your show. I'm a huge fan. Obviously we have very similar shows. We have completely different styles, which is so cool. And one of the things you and I understand what it comes to collaboration is there's no competition. There's no mutual exclusivity. If someone's listening to good mortgage content, they want to find other good mortgage content. So I love collaborating with other podcasters and other shows out there because that's creating awareness for the industry, which is again, you know, my passion and mission for doing all this. Yeah, right on. So collectively now between the podcast flash briefings and video shows, what do you guys have like 20 plus? Yeah, 20, 25 to 30 show hosts. And then some hosts have multiple shows across different channels. At the end of this year, we're getting ready to bring on I think five more, both in the mortgage and real estate categories. We've also got a couple of exclusive shows or industry syndicate produced shows that we're bringing on where we're taking a couple of really good content creators and helping them, you know, build a show around them. And are we right now the best estimate I have is about 250,000 a month, impressions, downloads, views. So we've got a really good audience and can wanting to continue to grow that. Yeah, that's awesome. So if people who want to find other relevant shows, right, this isn't just podcasts or some flash briefings and stuff in there as well. But it's industry syndicate.com. We'll put a link in the show notes as a matter of fact. So they just in the app store, they could just search for industry syndicate. Yes, yeah, just go to the Google Play or the Apple App Store and search industry syndicate and our app will be there to download. You just sign up. It's pretty easy, just an email address in your name and you can contribute to the community. You can interact with show host, post content, see all the shows. It's a cool little cool app. Awesome. Awesome. And how about if people want to either obviously subscribe to your show or reach out to you directly, why don't you give them how to do that? Sure. My easiest way is to go to mmepodcast.com that'll have links to Alexa flash briefing, our show, all the different platforms that we're on. My website is filledtrendwell.com. You can email me there. It's got my contact info as well. Always super happy to chat with folks and collaborating in a way that I can. That's fantastic, man. Well, look, unfortunately, we don't have as much time as I think we wanted for today and perhaps we can do another round to do a deeper dive on some of these very specific topics. But I appreciate you being here and bringing value to the community, man. Well, I'm super excited. Like a summer huge fan of the show. I'm super excited that you allowed me on the podcast. And I'm also excited because you're going to be a guest on my podcast this time next week. And we'll go a little bit deeper dive in that as well. And continue this conversation because it's always a good one. For sure, man. Appreciate it. And as listeners, you know what to do if you like this episode or any of the others. Hey, leave us a little love, a little review wherever you're listening to this. And we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now. Thanks for listening to Mortgage Marketing Radio. One more truth in mortgage marketing. Get more free training and resources at mortgagemarketinginstitute.com. Hey guys, what's up real quick? You've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before. And I just want to quickly remind you if that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased loans, you need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. 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