Ep #48: Funding $434 Million With Shant Banosian

In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with the real estate agents is essential for success. However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge. With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections. Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read. Chris has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals. And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business. To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy of the case study today. You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can too. Don't miss out. Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio. Brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute. It's your number one source for truth in mortgage marketing. Hey listeners, it's Jeff Zimfer. Welcome to this week's episode of Mortgage Marketing Radio. Have I told you how much I appreciate you? I really do. If you're a listener who's been listening to this podcast for a while, thank you so much. I'm grateful for you. You're why I do this, you're what keeps me going. If you're brand new, welcome, love to get your feedback. Whether you've been here a while, your brand new or not, you know you can communicate with me anytime. You can send me a direct email to infoatmortgagemarketinginstitute.com. You can connect with me on Facebook at Mortgage Marketing Institute and you can request to join our private Facebook group where we share additional content, resources and just looking to build better modern mortgage originators. Speaking of that, this interview, get ready for a doozy. This is a good one. My guest for this week's episode is a man who's gracious at the same time is just a machine in terms of production. I watched a video that was a Facebook live video from the Mortgage Mastermind in Vegas and I saw this man talk about his process, his loan process and the efficiencies that he's got in place that allow him to scale his business. So who is this guest? It's Shant Bonozion. Shant Bonozion, the number one mortgage loan originator in the entire state of Massachusetts. Let me give you some quick stats on Shant. As I said, number one in the entire state of Massachusetts in 2016, he closed 1136 units for $434.5 million in funded loans in 2016 alone. Here on the podcast, how now he just has first $50 million month. That's right month. By the way, as you're listening to this, you think, oh, well, that's his team and he's got all these originators out there. That's not exactly the case here. You've got to set aside any of your potential preconceived notions. You know, that's funny. When we talk about somebody doing full for $400 million a year, a lot of you listening may say to yourself, you know what, I don't want to do $400 million a year. But would you like to do another $10 million a year? Would you like to do another $20, another $30? Whatever your goal is, if your goal is growth, you realize that you've got to have certain processes, systems, standards, and mindset in place in order to get to that level of production. It's like the old saying, the level of thinking that got you to where you are is not enough to get you to that next level. And that I find to be so true with my special guest today. So just a true gentleman, somebody who's willing to share is not of a scarcity mindset, but as an abundance mindset. I mean, the accolades just go on and on for sure, right? Back in 2016, the number three originator in the entire country. And it's just, you know, I mean, there are so many lessons and stories in this. If you're listening to this and thinking, man, I need to grow my business. But I challenge to do that because I am the assistant and you're stuck in that mode of I originate, then I process, I originate in my process. Or what are the right systems, tools, people to put into place? So I can grow my business. What are the best sources of business? How do I engage with my realtors? What is a perfect customer process that I can put in place? That's going to help me create raving fans. How do I shift the conversation away from price to advice? I mean, we just, you know, dive into this all here and just does a complete pouring into you as a listener to get a look inside the business of somebody who is just, you know, over a $400 million producer in 2016. And most of that is because of his efforts, his work, him still engaging with buyers and, you know, borrowers every single day. So I'm really thrilled to have Sean as a special guest knowing that the dollar cost just for him to carve out about an hour for us on this podcast is just enormous when you think about it. So I am eternally grateful for that. And I hope you will enjoy it as much as I have. So without further ado, let's transition into this week's show. Hey, Sean. Welcome to the show. Hey, thank you very much for having me. My pleasure. Yeah, welcome, welcome, welcome. So you're a tough guy to nail down because you're extremely busy, highly productive and I'm so thrilled to bring you to our listeners here today. So in the intro, I obviously talked about who you are, you know, your production amounts and all that kind of stuff. But I think that for the listeners, what I didn't get into is get us the brief, you know, bio history of Sean's entry into the mortgage space, you know, who are you? And what are you doing? Yeah, absolutely not. I appreciate it. Again, thanks for having me. You know, it's fun for me to talk about this stuff. So I've been actually on this side of the business. I've only been originating loans for about nine years. I got into the business virtually right out of college back in 2003. I worked at a regional, sub-prime lender, mostly online leads through like things like lending tree.com all over my bills. I learned how to sell, you know, all phone sales at that time, you know, for about a year. And then I quickly got promoted to the point where I was in management, you know, a couple of times over the course of years by time, you know, I was like 25 or 26 years old. I was managing a team about 40 loan originators doing all. Essentially, it was just phone sales through lending tree and loan my bills and other lead aggregators. It was actually very, very valuable for two reasons. One is it really taught me how to differentiate myself. Because generally every single client I was talking to four to five different people. And, you know, it taught me the value of relationship selling, how important that is, you know, at the time, I didn't know this time, but we weren't selling, you know, the greatest product, you know, a lot of one year arms and two year arms. And, you know, it was a lot of tech and solidation, cash out refinances, all that kind of stuff. And, but it really taught me how to kind of get to know my clients, how to establish relationships and speak confidently, concisely over the phone, which is really valuable now because it's funny as, you know, I thought once I got into the retail side, everything would be face to face. But as technology has changed, you know, it's switching back over to phone sales almost predominantly because a lot of people don't want to come into the office anymore. And to do the kind of volume that I need to do, that I want to do, you know, do a lot of face to face meetings, a lot of phone, but I was doing that. And then, you know, in 2008, 2009, you know, the whole, you know, market collapse. So I was essentially what I was doing was, you know, I was in a position where I was training and recruiting and coaching and I was in management, but I hadn't originated in four or five years in the market for was up. I had to try to figure out how I was at a crossroads both in my career and in my life trying to figure out what I was going to do. I really enjoyed the mortgage business. I really enjoyed sales. I enjoyed the competition of it. I enjoyed helping people. You know, there was the competitiveness. There's a lot of things I really liked about it. The people and people interaction. And so I decided to, you know, become a loan officer again. So in a, that's when I started from scratch, but, you know, so there's a lot of things that I learned in terms of like, you know, how to be really good salesperson over the phone, how to manage my time, how to manage my days, learn how to win, learn how to lose, like all that stuff, but what I didn't have was any relationships back then. So I've really been on this side of thing for seven years, but I didn't know back then. I didn't know any really any real tours, attorneys, title insurance companies, home insurance people like I never really started from scratch. So, you know, what I did was, you know, I went back to what I knew. I, you know, I partnered up with a really great mortgage company that had some really great products. And I learned this side of the business side to really learn, like I literally had to learn what Fannie Mae was, where Freddie Mac was, what FHA was, because we didn't have any of that stuff at the previous company was at and teach myself all the loan products, guidelines, how that stuff worked, literally running VU, LPL kind of stuff. And then I went out and I started networking. I joined Rotary Club, I joined Chamber of Commerce, I joined the B&I Group, I joined everything that you could possibly imagine. I went and I would talk to any realtor that would want to talk to me. And I also, you know, I did, when I initially started, I even bought some leads on Lending Tree again, just to kind of have some clients. And I got off those pretty quickly. It only took me about six months or a year of doing all that networking stuff to where I didn't really need any leads at all whatsoever. And to the point where I was fully self-sufficient on referrals. And then, you know, my impact back then was just constantly, you know, I was focused on meeting just anybody that would be able to refer any business and refer partners. So as I was saying, CPA is financial advisors, anybody. And then once we got a deal, I focused on quality. Quality and communication is still to this day. The biggest focus of what we do and how the foundation of our business and how we're going to keep growing. But every single time we take on a deal and we took on a deal, made sure one, we knew what we were doing, you know, make sure that every pre-approval that we sent out was spot on and is something that wasn't going to be denied. Something that we stand behind 100 percent. Once we put a deal in process, making sure the client was super informed all the way through the process. The realtors were informed on both sides of the deal, the buyer's agent and the listing agent. The attorneys were in the loop and, you know, so we really became known almost immediately for, you know, the quality of our work and the communication that we delivered. And there was really, really easy to add new realtors at that point just because they were really impressed. We could really let our work, you know, and I say, we, I mean, me at the time, it was me by myself, do the talking. And then, you know, that's what we focused on. But we just constantly focused on improving the client experience. There are communication they were getting from us. We're, you know, constantly focused on making the process more efficient and setting proper expectations through the whole process. You know, I've established a really great brand is, you know, if your clients, you know, want to work with somebody that's going to be always available, that's always going to be honest with them out front with them and deliver on dates and whether it's commitment dates and closing dates and quick closing, and so on and stuff, like really made sure that that was something that we could, that we could build upon. Yeah. You know, I think accessibility, both realtors and clients, is super important, delivering quality, pre-approvals and product is huge. And just being known, I think people demand consistency and in a market like, you know, I do most of my business in Boston and, you know, it's one of the hotter real estate markets in the country. And I think everybody thinks their markets are honest, right? But I think that, you know, you have to be able to deliver and we do over and over and over again. Definitely. And thank you for sharing that, by the way. There's a lot in there. And what I want to do is, as you made that transition from doing the, you know, the phone sales, what did you identify, who did you have to become or change, what about you, did you need to prepare yourself for, right? As you go back on the street, no relationships, all that. I mean, what was that mind? Did you have to make a mindset shift? Or there's some certain things you're aware of that you're like, man, I haven't done this in a while, but I need to get out there and do this. Anything coming up? In a lot of ways, when you're doing the leads, one deal does not carry over to the other. I mean, obviously, if you do a good job, you hope to get referrals from those clients. But when you're primarily referral based and realtor based, you know, those deals are all interconnected. So, you know, you could do a great job for some clients. But if you don't do a good job, after a while, that lead source will cut you off. So, I think if you do a good job consistently, you'll be able to get more referrals from that lead source. And then, too possible, we have that realtor refer you to other agents in their office or other agents on the other side of deals. So, I think making sure that you knew that the quality of your work was super important because there's major longevity to that. So, but anyway, that is like, you know, whereas like a, you know, when you work with like a financial advisor, right? Or as a financial advisor, if they keep a client on their books forever, you know, they get paid incrementally, you know, based on the assets they have under management. Whereas with us, you know, we have to kind of create that on our own in the sense that we hope that when we do a deal for a client, they come back to us every single time they refinance or want to buy. But we don't get paid for as long as they hold their mortgage. I wish we did. But, you know, the same thing goes with a realtor. Like if you do a great job or open over and over again, there's no reason that realtor is ever going to leave you. But if you don't do a good job on the communication side of the quality of your work or whether they're, you know, the response that your client frankly gives that person, then, you know, you could have that person disappear without you even knowing and move on to somebody else. So, just know that every single deal has other implications to it. It was really a big mindset shift. But other than that, a lot of it's the same. I mean, it's, you know, I was pretty successful on the internet-based lead stuff. It really prepared me really well. I thought it was a pretty smooth transition. I didn't have a lot of difficulty transitioning over to the face-to-face and networking side. Okay. So, you said earlier when you got out there to, you know, to develop those relationships, you did networking like crazy, right? You just amped it up. What is today or what when you first started out? What was your most successful way of capturing real estate agents and building that referral base? You know, I still, for this day, I think it's all about like the low-hanging fruit in the sense that, you know, when I first started out, she's literally based on the people that I knew that I grew up within my town, like who are the local real estate agents, right? And then their friends and their friends and their co-workers. And I would just go everywhere that they are, right? So generally speaking, you know, like most of the real estate boards and real estate areas have different types of groups. Like in our area, there's a greater Boston Association of Realtors. There's mass association of realtors and they all have events. So I would make sure that I was at all those things. And then, you know, it's one thing just showing up to those events. But then it's another thing, taking action items to actually try to generate meetings from those and try to grab, you know, coffees and lunches and dinners and play that. So then more than anything, it's not like, you know, just tell them all about you, but to get them to know you like you and trust you and have them understand what you're all about. And that's how you get business. If they don't like you or trust you or even know you, there's no chance they're ever going to send you a deal, right? And a lot of people just go to those meetings and then they collect business cards and they never do anything with them. And it's a matter of, you know, going there with a plan, you know, knowing how many you know, coffees and lunches that you wanted to take out of there and actually following up the people when you leave those meetings with, you know, calls and emails and trying to schedule actual events and actually getting into their offices. And, you know, I do a lot of lunch and run type things where I go into real estate offices and just update them with market conditions and what's going on in the industry and what's going on in their marketplaces and things that we're seeing. And, you know, just anything I can do to get in front of agents. So that's everything I might, my business is probably built on real estate agents. You know, we have some financial advisors just that send us some business as well and other, you know, like when I say financial guys, I also mean like counts. But, you know, and then obviously, of course, over the course of time we built this really great book of business and our clients really like us and trust us and so they tend to refer us business as well. But everything I did was always focused on just being in front of as many real estate agents as possible and then just getting there and trying to, you know, differentiate yourself from everybody else and I tried to not do it from a product standpoint. You know, because I feel like everybody goes in and sits down and says the same things. I just wanted to get them to know me as a person, want to give me a shot and then once say, give me a shot and really just wild them with how different our communication and process and efficiency is versus our competition. So what would you say to those listening, you know, you've obviously got a well-established brand in your community and I think everything you shared is definitely spot on and then you've worked, you've worked with a lot of LLOs, you got LLOs on your team, you coach them and maybe you don't run into this because of, you know, the brand and the platform you've built there like when a new LLO comes on your team. But I know other LLOs when I teach them that same thing. Right. Oftentimes the frustration or challenges they have is, well, how do I uniquely position myself or, you know, oh, I met with them and, you know, they haven't sent me any business. So, are there any like, you know, script strategies or, you know, kind of mindsets that you put into place, processes, you know, to help move that relationship forward? Does that make sense at all? Yeah, I mean, I really think, you know, just like any other type of business or sales or whatever you want to call it, you know, I really just think it's all about asking for the business. So, when I'm meeting with these people, you know, I literally asked them, hey, would you mind sending me your next deal? You know, like, it's literally that simple. All right. So, yeah, I, you know, I asked them for the business and hey, nothing happened. I don't know if that's, I'm sure that happened to you early on, but how would you address that? I mean, you know, it's a numbers game, bottom line, like I'm not going to pretend like I get deals from every single person I meet with, you know, if I'm consistently meeting with people, whether it's three a week, five a week, one a week, whatever that number is, that I'm going to get some, right? I'm not going to get every single one. It's virtually impossible, right? You know, with great baseball player, you know, if they had 300, you know, they're, you know, and they all start game, right? So, like, you know, it's the same thing, like you have to, you have to have your foundation for like what your goals are every single week, but, you know, I think it's a matter, it's a matter of falling up with them, you know, with emails in terms of, for example, like every Friday, I send an email to make sure that everybody knows that I'm around this weekend and doing pre-approvals, right? It goes up to my entire filter database. And I don't do that for any other reason. One, it's just a reminder, and two, I'm in their email all weekend. So if they do have a client that needs a pre-approval, and they have something that, you know, they're at a house on a Saturday or Sunday, and they're like, you know, clients as I need a pre-approval, my mortgage guy said he's around this weekend. Here's his contact. You'd be surprised by the amount of realtors that give me a shot for the first time, just because they know I'm available on weekends. And again, you know, meet with somebody, you have a coffee or a lunch, and then they don't send you anything. It's okay to follow up with them, and give them phone calls, and send them emails and text messages, and just keep asking for the business. In a non-knowing type of way, I'm not very aggressive, like as much as I say, I ask for the business, I'm also like, if it's not the right fit, and they're just not comfortable to send me business, I'm going to eventually leave them alone. But, you know, it's important to kind of get them to realize that like, I find that if you ask for it enough, all I'm looking for, right, is one deal, right, from that person, because I feel like my process and communication, my team are so good now at this point, that if we do one deal, and then they go somewhere else, and they convert to somebody else, is they're going to keep coming back to us, right, or what they're going to cost them to, I actually need them to give me one layup. And then once I get it, you know, from the time I do the pre-approval to the loan, it's been processed, the closing, after closing, I think they're blown away by how, how much we're communicating with them, keeping them in the loop, and the love that their client's getting. But, you know, it's not just like, I don't have like a magic word that I'm saying to somebody that's like, hey, there's not like a script. I think, you know, it's really important that, you know, when I go into these meetings, I'm not really just talking about myself. Frankly, I'm doing just a lot of question asking, and I'm trying to learn about them. I find that, you know, generally when people talk about themselves, they think that the meeting went really great when they love talking about their business, and what their goals are. Like, I want to learn everything about them. I want to learn about what their goals are, how they go into the business, what the deals with their family, what their, you know, what their business goals are, what their personal goals are. And then I asked them, you know, what's, what are they looking for in their loan officer relationships? You know, what's important to them? Are they looking for people that are going to deliver great experience, speed, are they looking for a client referrals back? Like, what's important to them? And then I just try to make sure that if I'm the right fit for them, I communicate that if I'm not the right fit for them, then I probably just don't follow up very much. You know, I try to also be picky with like, I don't just work with everybody, right? You know, I try to generally speaking like, what's the real truth that I work with in a real estate agency? I work with, I become super friendly with because I get along with these people really well. It's hard to generate like really great relationships and get business from people that you're just not a good fit with from a personality match standpoint. And eventually it's going to fall off anyway. So I find that most agents I work with, I genuinely enjoy talking to, finding out what's going on with work and what's going on with their personal lives and everybody and we've just become friends. And most of the people that I've worked with have been working with for a very, very long time now. And we don't. And it also makes it easier because the reality is this is a tough business, right? There's a lot of parts things go wrong. You know, it's nice to be able to call somebody and have a really honest conversation with them is to, hey, what's going on and everybody has these other facts that you get through it together as opposed to not having the type of relationship where things can get off track and not having somebody kind of helping you through it. All right. So we're going to transition in a minute to like business and process and all that. But how do you deal with the realtor who pretty soon in the conversation? Well, to give you a couple examples. Well, you know, I get leads from my other lender. That's why I work with them. Or yeah, I'd love to do a, you know, a co-marketing thing on Zilla, whatever, if you're going to help me pay for it. How do you, how do you handle those situations when you run into them? Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, with the whole getting leads from, you know, the law officers and we totally, yeah, I try to do a really great job. If my client's coming attached, it's part of my business plan is to try to refer out as much business as possible. One more importantly, because I know that if I put them in touch with my realtors that I know it like trust, they're going to do a good job for those clients. And those clients are going to be more sticky to me. You know, I am, I remember one of the biggest things that B&I, the little slogan there is givers can. And I find that the more business you give out, the more you get back, more just out of a matter of good faith. And I like referring out business if I get satisfaction out of it. I feel good about it. Like it's, so I do try to refer up business however, you know, so the more realtors, I know in different locations in geographies and different personality messages. I have matches. I try to match up my clients with them whenever the opportunity arises. But that's not what I'm really all about. It'd be perfect honestly. Like if you're going to send me business, it's because you want to make sure your clients are taken care of. You want to make sure the quality of the work. You want to make sure when your offer is accepted that, you know, we're going to hit every single date. Nothing's going to go wrong. It's going to go smooth. So I'm a good fit for a realtor as a loan officer. If they just want the best experience and they and somebody they can count on deliver a really great process and product, not just because they're going to get a couple deals. Like if they're just looking for a couple deals a year, you know, I bring a lot more to the table than that. In terms of the co-marketing stuff, you know, it's one, again, it's one of those things. I'll never jump into a relationship and start spending dollars. Those never worked out. You know, I've never, you know, there's no relationship there. It's all about money and I just don't think it's a great way to build a business. You know, anytime I've ever helped with like from a marketing standpoint, whether it's, you know, open houses and events and all that kind of stuff, it's always the people that we have long-term relationships with that, you know, it just makes sense just like in any other business. But we would never lead into a relationship with that stuff. When I just explain to them, I hope you understand that, you know, that's not that's not the way we go on to business relationships. If you know, if it's something you want to do in the future after we've done a bunch of business together, something we'd be open to talking about, but it's not how we answer into a relationship. Wow, that's powerful. That's really taking control of the conversation and it's setting the premise, right? The tone of the relationship. And I like that because it's not, you know, money allows would rush to, okay, I got to do this co-marketing thing with this realtor, right? Because he's a top producer and he wants us to like kick in to Zillow and, you know, to your point. And I'm sure many listeners who've been down that road where it's like if it starts at money, yeah, that's that's the wrong premise. It never works. You know, I've had a lot of learning experiences over the course of my career. You know, those never work. And you know, the one of the biggest things I've learned on my career, whether it's with realtor's, with clients, it's just knowing when you're not the right fit with somebody. It's really hard to make yourself the right fit, like you're either the right fit or you're not. So it's like, and when, you know, I have a lot of clients, I have a lot of clients that come to me and I know I can't do that deal just because we can't offer them the product they need. But a lot of times I know they can go, they're going to be able to, they're financeable, but I'm just not the right fit. And I have a group of loan officers out there, different, whether it's commercial or foil blenders, you know, certain banks and credit unions that do certain nichy products that we're just not interested in doing. And I, I refer out a ton of business to other loan originators. When I came into the deal, when I know they can say yes, because I'd rather have everybody refer me every single deal, let me figure out where the loan should go. So I, I don't want to just say no and show them, but I've become very confident saying no, but somebody else is a better fit. Same thing with my realtor partners, like I can just tell right away whether I'm going to be a good personality matching somebody. If I am, you know, I'm going steam ahead and trying to, you know, cultivate that relationship. If I'm not, then I just kind of have that gut feeling and walk away because there's, there's so much business being done out there. Yeah, there's so many realtors, there's so many clients buying homes. You know, it's, you're, you're going to be, you're going to have more satisfaction in your job and your life and everything. If you're just working with people that you really enjoy being around and a good fit for you, as opposed to, you know, yeah, how would you feel good about it all day, every single day, you know, you're buying all your relationships? That would be, that's not a sustainable business. And it's also, it's just, that's, that feels good. Yeah. Alright, so let me bring up, you know, the talk crack of price for a moment because I'm sure you deal with price and I hear a lot of things in the marketplace about the G-Rate price and the, in the good rates, if you will, in air quotes. So I'm trying to figure out how do I ask you this question. I mean, I guess I'll have to both ways is that one, do you run into, you know, price issues on deals and then how do you move the conversation from price to advice? Great question. I think that, yeah, of course. I mean, everybody does. You know, we have a really great product set, conventional FHA, about conventional and guvvy jumbo. I mean, we're, we're, we're a very diverse, right? But at the end of the day, there's always going to be somebody that is, you know, going after a certain amount of business aggressively, whether it's in the jumbo space or conventional or whatever it is. So I find that, you know, we're, price very aggressively, we're always going to be, you know, at the very top of where we should be in terms of the market, that's what we want to be in, but there's always going to be somebody can probably price that a little bit more aggressively, right? If they want to, there's a lot of like rate sheet lenders out there now that are just, you know, giving the price away. Yeah, especially in purchase market. Yeah, big time. You know, we're definitely not in every single price, you know, category, the most aggressively price, but I find that, you know, and if you look at any type of business, like the companies that work on the lowest margins, like how long do those generally last, right? Like you want the company to make money and you want to be able to make money so that you can build the sustainable business that you can keep bringing investing in, right? And so, you know, I think that, you know, a lot of the work to get away from price right off the bat is before you even get to that point, right? So, you know, I think when a client calls me, I never, like, if a client just wants to talk about a rate, like it's not, that's not my, that's not my thing. Like I want to get to know everything about them. I want to understand their goals, their needs. I want to build rapport, right? I want to understand, you know, when they want to buy, why they want to buy, you know, everything about them, right? And then I establish, you know, who I am in the business, what my brand is, what my reputation is, you know, what my experience is, and why that will help them, you know, I want to explain to them everything that we're going to talk about up front in terms of what entails a pre-approval. Why I'm going to, what I'm going to go through regarding their credit, their income, their assets, educate them on why those are important, talk about the type of collateral, whether it's a condo, single family, investment property. And then once I get all that out of the way, I explain to them, you know, I educate them on their pre-approval. So what they're max pre-approval is what their comfort zone is, what their payments are going to be, what goes into those payments regarding insurance, taxes, PMI, condo fees, all that stuff, what their down payment options, whether they want to put down 20% or whether the ability to put down 5% or whatever, what their closing costs are going to be, when those are due, and then different types of products, whether it's fixed or an arm. So I go through all that stuff. And then, you know, throughout the course that I'm reporting, and then I'm following up and I'm talking, and then I try to make my clients pretty sticky to me. So every time they want to make an offer afterwards, I want them to get a customized pre-approval letter from me. I want to get on the phone with them and say, you know, specifically for this property, you know, here's what your payments look like, your rate at the current time, closing costs again, all that stuff. I find that the more of those conversations I have up front, then, you know, by the time they get their offer accepted, you know, it's really not about price anymore because you become their friend, their advisor, you've already put the work, and they want to award you for it, and they just want to know, hey, tell me what's next. So it's really establishing that before you get the price. But if say, you know, a client comes to me with, you know, offer accepted, we haven't had time to build some reports. So I got to kind of reel it back in, like, I'm never one of those people who are if a client just like sends me an email and they am talking at six different lenders sending me your best rate on the 30 or fixed, like, I don't even know where to start there. I was like, you can't. I mean, there's too many, there's too many variables and factors to just send out a rate, you know, without even talking to somebody. So, you know, I try to make it more than just about rate. You know, I find that when we do have to compete on rate, you know, we'll win some, we'll lose some. I mean, I think that's the way it is for everybody. There's no, I don't know of any lender that's going to win every single time, or any loan offset. It's going to win every single time. I'm a big believer in that relationship, totally makes a big difference. You know, there's a lot of clients that are waving mortgage contingencies right now. And mostly some of these busier markets, you know, in order to get your offer accepted, you got to close quickly. And you got to, a lot of times have confidence that your lender is going to be able to deliver if you don't have a mortgage contingency because you might be competing against some cash offers. And that's where like, I really might value those wayway up because I can do both those things. If I say I'm going to do it, it deals getting done. And if I, I'm going to deliver it at that point, you know, you're going to jeopardize a $50,000 deposit, $100,000 deposit over an eighth of a point or a quarter percent interest rate. Right. Right. So, so if there's a contingency, like, must close in 21 days, for example, right, you'll obviously have the conversation to demonstrate that you can do that. And you'll, you'll get the stuff done on your side, the pre-approval, the, you know, all that kind of jazz conditions removed to the degree you can within that time frame. 100 percent. Yeah. Do you get involved in any, you know, cross qualifying on listings, you know, how you, what's the listing agent would have you written in to the notes on their purchase contract? Yeah, definitely, especially in multiple offers situations. You know, they obviously they can't force them to work with us. But they can't require them to get a pre-approval from us. And then it's on me to, you know, show the value in terms of like, you know, why I'm a good fit. And again, just go back to report building and getting them to like entrust us and understand why we're better fit than whoever they're working with. But yeah, a lot, you know, I'm happy to do that. You know, it's, it's a little bit labor intensive because, you know, some people have already built a great relationship and they're just going to use you for that pre-approval letter, which I'll find with like to me, that's a, that is a good use of my time. I'm talking to a client that's, you know, making offers that's a series of a buy-out place. So I find that, you know, I can have a bunch of those conversations and it works in my favor more often than not. But yeah, I love that stuff. To be honest, I've done it for a very, very long time. It helps you win deals. It helps you win deals and it helps separate, you like, it helps you meet realtors. You know, I can't tell you how many times, you know, I've met new relationships just because of those situations. I think, you know, if you're a loan officer, if you can get your listing agents to require a pre-approval from you, whether, you know, and that happens a lot with builders as well, you know, there's a lot of really successful loan officers that I know that don't work with realtors at all and they do all their business with builders and the builders ride into the contract right there and that, you know, I know in order for them to get their offer considered, they at least have that pre-approval. They end up when, you know, I find that really good people that know what they're talking about. If you're putting yourself in a situation, you're going to have a pretty good success right there. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Okay. Good stuff. Let's transition that into building a team. And for those listening, if you just give it, I definitely talked about this in the intro, but I think this is critical to know because I'm a big guy all about process and and you and I talked to before, you know, you were at a point in your career when you got out of the the phone sales and into on the streets retail, you know, you were building up some momentum and got to a certain level of production and at some point, there comes that conversation, okay, I need an assistant, right? And if I'm going to continue to grow my business, you've grown way beyond that, right? With about 19 people on your team. If I'm correct, you are tracking to do what? 40 to 50 million a month? Yeah. So the last two months, I did, I did 55 million in June that just closed out and I did I think 52 million in May. So first time ever that we had broken 50 million in a month and we did it back to back, which was pretty cool. Last year we, we closed 400, I think, I don't know, 435 million or something. So we did 40 million a bunch of times last year, but we were ever able to break through 50. So we've done that a couple times this year. I think the thing I'm proud of most is that, you know, I'd say about 85% of my business is purchase business. So, you know, the last month, for example, I think we closed like 122 deals or 128 deals and over 100 of them were purchase deals. So I mean, we're still doing some refinances, but I've very purchased driven. So yeah, so finally busted through 50 million, which is a year-long yeah, congratulations, man, that's just like amazing. So in hearing that, a lot of people are blown away, you know, they're like, oh my god, how's that even possible? And like you and I talk about before, a lot of people listening, loan officers, right, that's not necessarily their goal. I mean, they'd like to get the 50 million in a year, right? Let alone a month. Yeah, yeah. So, but going back, so we got L.O.'s listening, it's like either they're going to hire or hope to hire an assistant or an L.O.A., you know, something like a junior. What best advice would you give for somebody who's at that cusp, you know, where it's like, damn, I need to get a team member if I'm going to scale and grow my business. What things do they need to have in place? What lessons did you learn? That kind of jazz. Yeah, absolutely. A lot of lessons learned. You know, every time, I'm finally at the point in my career right now where I'm hiring ahead of the curve, as opposed to out of necessity, like, whereas my first like two years, I always hire when it was too late. But, you know, when I go to about, I think when you start getting to doing about, you know, somewhere between 30 and 40 million, that's when you need to start considering hiring an assistant. So I did it when I was getting just broke through 40 and I realized that I was having it and granted, I wasn't at the time. I wasn't at nearly as good of a company as I am right now. So I have a lot more support process, technology, everything, you know, product, everything is better here than where I was at before. But, you know, when I got two before 40 million, I actually will honestly say that five or six years ago, I did like 50 million bucks and I was miserable, right? It was everything was on me. Literally, I was miserable to the point where like I was like trying to figure out whether I even want to stay in this business or not because I was, I just wasn't enjoying it. Like, I didn't feel like I was delivering great service to my clients and I feel like I had any freedom to like leave the office or go on vacation or take a day off. I was, you know, I was literally selling loans, clearing conditions, locking loans, clearing conditions, working with the closing department, like helping up, sending closing back, like literally involved in everything. Now, it's just not, and that's not like stuff that I'm passionate about, you know, like it's, I'm passionate about developing new business, growing my team and doing, doing closing deals, like I, you know, I still love talking to my clients and selling deals, like that's fun to me. When I started getting involved in other stuff, like what I'd find, what happens when you're doing everything you yourself is that you sell for like two weeks, and then all you do is, you know, process for two weeks, and it's, it's just too up and down, you're up and down months, it's hard to get consistent. Whereas now, I'm literally just selling every single day. So I'm consistently able to put up big numbers because all I do is sell all day long. But, you know, when I got to that, you know, 40 million mark, I think, I think part of the thing is, the reason people don't hire assistance sooner is confidence, right? Confidence that, hey, you can afford it, you'll be able to train the person that you love a planet that you can, that they'll be able to make money. Yeah, there's a lot of things that are, you're a fear factors, but once you get over those, you know, it's huge. You know, I always kind of, every time I add somebody, I kind of look at it like, I always look at two things. If I hire this person, am I either going to do more business, or am I going to get some of my life back? And if as long as I can, if I can make the same amount of money and get some of my life back and get some free time to spend with my wife and kids, I'm okay with that, or if I do more business, I'm okay with that. But if it's not going to do one of those two things, then I'm not interested, then they're not the right fit. So it's hard to hire, you know, so, you know, I think one person is, you know, come up with all the high leverage activities that you want to be doing and then write down all the things that you don't want to be involved in, and that's what you train that person. But it's not the key mistake that most loan originators make when they hire an assistant is just assuming that that person's going to figure out everything on their own, but they're not. So if like, you're really good, like I was really good at clearing conditions, right? When I'd call a client, I'd get on the phone with them, and I'd be like, this is what I need, exactly how I needed, when I needed, now they'd get it to me. I'd never have a problem with that. So when I hired an assistant, I was like, you know, here's I asked for it, here's exactly what you say, here's what they may say, and here's what you say back, and this is like, you know, having checklists for them to follow. I was literally chasing down all my condos, right? Like I was literally collecting condodocks, condo questionnaires, master insurance, budgets. Well, it's one thing for me to not want to do that stuff anymore, but it's a really important, you know, I do four to five hundred condos a year. So I hired somebody and their full-time job now is tracking down condo stuff, and it's, you know, I need them to know what they're looking at when they're looking at a master deed and buy loss. I need them to know what they're looking for for the master insurance. I need them to know what they're looking for in a budget, what questionnaires stuff they should be, you know, so I've really trained those people in all those things. What to look at, I only look at appraisals now when it's a problem, right? Like I've never used it in light, that's when it gets brought to my attention. But the other, you know, a hundred appraisals that come in, I never even look at it, but somebody on my team is looking at them, my eye is essentially knowing what I'm looking for and bringing it to me if it's an issue. The first and foremost thing I would do is one, you know, like take all the administrative stuff off your plate. Like you want to be focused on it, essentially selling all day long. So administrative stuff, whether it's chasing conditions, insurance, condo stuff, you know, set ordering appraisals on ordering title work, somebody should be doing all that stuff for you, you shouldn't be doing that yourself. And then, you know, the more and more business you do, you'll be able to tell a kind of like, I've been able to tell every single time I've hit a new milestone. Like I remember I went from 50 million to like 126 after I heard my first assistant and I went to 180 and at 180 or one, sorry, 160, we hit a major like roadblock again, we were we weren't staffed enough and then I had to bring on somebody else. And like then we got up to like, you know, a couple years later, we got up to 300, we hit a, you know, a major roadblock in terms of we weren't growing, we had to hire some more people to do, we're big into specialization. And then, and then, you know, this past year, we got up to 430 and I knew we could do more. And now we're trying to knock out 500 million. And I feel like for the over the last year, I'm finally hiring a head of growth as opposed to when you'll be a roadblock. It's important. You can see you're coming. Do you have any pre-hiring, you know, processes or, you know, a lot of people use the disc profile. Do you, do you have anybody do stuff like that before, as you're vetting them out? You know, I, you know, the one thing I've learned is that every time I've ever made a mistake hiring, it's always been when I've hired somebody that comes from the working business on the sales side. So anytime I, I generally hire people from outside the business might, only failures that I've had from the hiring standpoint have been people that already came with previous loan off experience, just never works out. Well, that's interesting. Why, why is that man, bad habits or what? Yeah, bad habits, preconceived notions. You know, I got into this business, you know, without any experience. And I, I did pretty well. So I'm kind of looking for people. Well, you know, I, I do generally like to hire people with previous experience in some form of life, whether it's sales or other jobs that have, you know, had some good coaching, but in that translates over to well. But I find that with loan officers that want to be like sales assistants, like they just, they've just got bad habits. And it's really hard to reteach those things. I, I'd rather just teach, I'd rather be the one that creates a foundation, you know, from some, from scratch. And I'd really just looking for people that are coachable, hard working, and hungry, you know, and people that are, you know, I just, I haven't had any successful hard bringing loan officers onto my team that, that maybe just weren't having success in their own right. But from an op standpoint, from like, you know, my loan processors and that's, I do like having people with experience, although even that's not a requisite, you know, so I just, you put them in the right environment, you can coach them and teach them, and you know, we're doing enough transactions where they can learn on the fly. When we bring somebody on, we have a, now we have a, you know, structured method in terms of like what they need to learn and, you know, how we kind of bring them in little by little by little. I find that it takes about, you know, six months to a year for somebody to like really fully being reigned where they're off on their own. But, but that's okay, because that's part of it, you know, any company, nobody ever hires anybody and that person's an expert right off of that. Yeah. So how many LOs do you have on your team? So on my own, individual team, I don't have any loan officers that are like, I'm kind of getting credit for your business at all. I have, I have three sales assistants that help me, you know, take applications. Speaking of that, yeah, sorry to interrupt, but speaking of that is, I was, I wanted to ask you, that's why you triggered that. What is your, your process? Because a lot of the folks that I'm working with that want to grow and scale, they're in this dilemma of like, well, do I take the 1003? Do I just be the, you know, loan consultant and flip over the 1003? What's your process? Yeah, I'll take 1003s myself if like I have to in a sense that like if it's like a time constraint, where they just got to get it done right away. Or if the client just is not comfortable, either having somebody else on my team take it for me or doing it online. I'm a huge proponent of the online application. So we have a really great online application. I, you know, I try to work by appointment only for the most part, you know, as much as I can. I don't, you know, I build in times where that's not realistic throughout the course of my day, but you know, I try to set appointments with all my clients. I find that, you know, busy, successful people appreciate having an appointment and it works well for me to be able to talk to as many people on a day as I can. When I build and make an appointment with somebody, I try to have them complete my online application first and try to get me as much of their documents up front. So I just find that I can have a really powerful impact on the conversation that happened. It's a buddy that they've already completed my application. I find that I get bored if I'm taking down like email addresses and phone numbers and addresses and work history and all that kind of stuff. Like I don't, I lose attention. I just, I get I'm not as good of a salesperson, I'm not passionate. I just kind of start, I'm just not as good, you know, like if I'm having to do all that stuff. So having all that stuff ready for me is important because then I can, again, build before I find out what they want to do and then explain everything they need to know about their credit, their income, their assets and their payments and their closing costs and the product products and make sure they get it. I feel like I'm teaching at that point and explaining and educating as opposed to just like data entry. I hate data entry. There's no way I can do other business that I need to do and want to do. It's impossible. So a lot of mine, somebody calls me. I try to make an appointment, have them put in all that application or I give them the option. I have one of my team members called them to take the application over the phone instead of applying it with me. And then, you know, there is I probably take, you know, probably one or two a day myself where I'm just doing it from start to finish only because it's like a last minute thing offers to and they need to know right away and I'm just like, you know, let's do it. Wow. Very interesting. But, but if I heard what correctly what you're saying is, by and large, your role then is to once they've in a perfect process, once they've taken the online app or gotten the app from someone else on your team, you're there as, right, having the the loan conversation, as you said, to use the word teaching, right? So you're being that trusted advisor to help direct them in the direction they should go, build some rapport, give them their options and all that. But once that conversation's done, is it then flipped over your team and are you then kind of out of the mix by and large? No. So, I mean, here's the best way I can describe it. And I really mean this as an eligible guest. So like, you go to the doctor's office for your physical, right? When you first get in there, you fill out a bunch of paperwork, right? Probably with an admin or a secretary, right? The doctor's not taking any of that information. Right. Then you go into a writing room, you know, they you sit in there and somebody comes in, takes your temperature, your, you know, your pulse, all that kind of stuff, whatever else they do and ask you a bunch of questions. The doctor's also not the one doing that. But then the doctor comes in and does all the meat and potatoes and gives you, you know, reads everything that everybody's done so far, you know, spends time with you and then is out of there, right? And then but they've done all the important stuff because that's they're the experts. Same thing with me, like I'm not the one doing data entry, you know, getting the basics, sending out emails initially up front to, you know, collect paperwork, that's what my team's doing. So I'm fresh, excited and fired up to do all the stuff in terms of educating my clients about everything. And then after that, you know, we issue the pre-approval, you know, I have, I have scripts and follow-up campaigns, mostly we follow up by email and text with our clients in terms of like, hey, how's your home search going? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Once they find a house, offers accepted. That's when I jump back in, I, you know, close the deal. I generally lock every single one of my loans. Yeah, because we have a lot of things to pick from. It's not, it's not just a matter of putting the lowest rate as everybody on this probably knows, you know, you have to pick investors, you know, based on other products and, you know, their qualifications. Then, you know, I sent pretty detailed instructions to my processing team in terms of like everything, I feel like they need to know on the file. And then, you know, my processing team takes it from there. Like, once I've blocked the loan, I agree the terms of the client, let them know how the process is going to look from here. And who will be involved in the loan from there on out, finally jump in if they need me for important stuff. I generally try to only jump in if they have questions about the loan product, price, closing costs, really any of the number of stuff. In terms of documentation collection or questions around the docs, I let my team do it because at this point, they do a much better job of that stuff than I do. They're experts at it. They don't talk price, product, and rates. That's my job. They talk documents, underwriting guidelines, clear to closes and all that kind of stuff. Nice. And then, what about post closing? What's that process look like? So, you know, we send out a survey to every single one of my clients to make sure that we did a good job. Surveys are shared with every single one of my team members that were involved in the loan. And we want to get feedback from the clients just how they thought the process went, what they liked and what they didn't like. And I think that everybody on my team cares about those things. So, they read it and we try to focus and get better. Yeah, we send them a thank you email. I don't do a ton of like phone calls and conversations after closing, you know, immediately. You know, there's emails that go out. I don't call them just because we're closing somewhere between 100 to, you know, 120 loans a month. It's hard to make that many phone calls. And, you know, that's something that we could definitely work on and process that, you know, will probably implement at some point, you know, a lot of times we try to help them out with their first payment just because that seems to be a question that pops up a lot. And then afterwards, you know, we have email campaigns that go out about whether they want to refinance in the future or they're thinking about buying another house and we stay in touch with them. You know, I recall times here, both through emails that we send out individually as a team and then my county sends it on my behalf. So we stay in touch with them largely by email. I am about to implement a process where we're actually calling them, you know, ideally twice a year or just to check in and let them know we're here because one of my things that still drives me insane to this thing. It's like it's just a major lecton as when I find out one of my clients refinance or bought with somebody else just because they forgot to call us. And it's usually not intentional. They just do it because, you know, they're realtor puts them in touch with somebody else. They saw a commercial or they realize that you can help them. So stuff like that. And speaking of surveys, I was curious what you used for that. Are you doing it like any online reviews and stuff? How do you capture that real quick? So yeah. So I mean, we asked them for, we asked them to review what I saw in a zero-hole yell Facebook, Google, like we send out an email asking them to sit or review on that stuff and then give them the links to all those places they can do for us. I think all the reviews are getting more and more important. So we 100% ask for that. And then just to survey itself, you know, says, you know, I do think the process went, you know, if then this is at a high level. I mean, how do you process went? Do you like your loan officer? Would you recommend guaranteed raid and shot? What would you do differently? You know, if there's any feedback, you give us what would it be? Stuff like that. And so it gives them the opportunity of one raid that's on a skill of one to 10, but also provide, you know, a written feedback as well. Got it. Very cool. That's how you improve. I mean, really honestly, as much as I'd like to say, you know, I wish everybody gave me a tag and, you know, that makes you feel good when you have those, but there's really some really great learning experience you have from one of the clients that say, hey, this is what I didn't like or this is what could have improved or this is what are wrong. Like that's really really learned. So, you know, it's really easy to say, oh, that client didn't know what they were talking about or can you believe that person? Like they have no idea. But, and that's like everybody's, you know, a lot of people's natural reaction, but that's like gold right there. You know, that's people can really, you know, they're not giving you that feedback because it, you know, they're generally a lot of people that give me feedback or like just truly want us to improve, you know, and they're, so you got to listen to that stuff. You can't be, you got to be a little bit thick skinned, but you can't like get upset at those people because that's not the whole point of it. Like you're never going to improve. You can't really think everybody else is wrong. That's right, man. That's good points. Feedback. Well, this has been very informative. You know, there was one question I wanted to answer. I'm a little bit reluctant because it could be a long weighted answer, but I'm going to go forward anyways. Did you set out to be, you know, the mega producer you are? Like if you look back when you were at that, you know, the call center and stuff, and you're like, okay, I got to switch out of the call center. You know, had you, I mean, I get the sense you're obviously a go-getter app anyways, getting after it. But, did you make that conscious choice? Like I want to be the number one mortgage guy and the entire state of Massachusetts? You know, not really. No. To be honest with you, it's kind of like you're just the environment that I'm in. So like when I was at, when I first got into the business at my current company, at the company I first started out like, you know, we're on lending tree. And I was like, well, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to be the top lending tree guy at the company. And I eventually figured out how to do that. And then, you know, when I first got into the retail side of things, you know, I was at a small local, I'm a small, you know, regional mortgage company. And I was like, oh, I'm from here. I might as well, you know, talk guys doing something. I got to figure out 150 million. I might as well be here. Yeah. And like when I first got, when I first got the guarantee rate, I was literally doing $50 million and I was like killing myself. And there was like something like 15 people that had done a hundred million. There was like a couple people that had done 200 million. There was one guy that did 300 and there was even a guy that did 400 million that year. And I thought it was like a complete fabrication. Like that was like, there's no way that's possible. And like then I started getting exposed to stuff like Scotsman's Guide, Mortgage Market Guide, like all these other, and all those publications that put out like the numbers. And I was looking at these numbers and I was like, these are big numbers. And you just got to start, you know, I share best practice with some of the biggest producers in the country, both at my company and at other companies as well. They have become friendly with over the time. I love where I work because there is so many big producers here. So it keeps you competitive. It's a healthy competition. It's fun. They're all in different markets, but everybody's doing different things that constantly, you know, it's funny. Like there's a bunch of people that are doing a big amount of business, but everybody's the team's the structure a little bit differently. Everybody goes after different kinds of business. So I'm constantly just trying to figure out, you know, what they're doing and how I can implement that and share what we're doing and how they can, they can use some of that stuff in their market. But my whole thing is like, I'm going to play in the sandbox. I want to be, you know, one of the better guys doing it. And so we're just constantly trying to focus on how to improve our processes, be more efficient with our time and our day and our clients and just do a better job. So ultimately, if I'm going to do it, I want to do it well. It's good for the brand to be considered one of the better originators in the industry and in the state. And I don't know, it's just I've always been a competitive person by nature. I like working hard. I like having success. So all those things kind of lead into, you know, being in successful, I guess. Yeah. Well, I tell you what, what I really love about you, man, is not only are you, you know, a go-getter and you want to be successful and you definitely hold yourself to high standards. I really get from you that, you know, to your point about your sharing best practices with people at competing companies, et cetera. You know, you've got the right mindset, the right vision, you're a go-giver instead of a go-taker. And so you are a complement to the industry and to loan originators around the country. And, you know, if we just had more people cut from the same cloth of like, look, man, there's the pie is big enough for everybody. You know, none of that scarcity mindset. I just think that would serve the greater good that much better. So yeah, yeah, I'm going to be honest, I couldn't agree with you more. I appreciate you saying that. It's very kind of you to say, you know, today you're right, the pie is big. I mean, it's it's very, very big and there's so many fun ways to do it. There's not so fun ways, but I'm searching after I want to do more business in work class, right? Like that's ultimately the goal. So like if I can like figure out a way to keep doing more business and get better, I will and, you know, also have that work-life balance which is super, super important to me. And, you know, I know I'm not going to figure it out on my own, but there's fortunately a lot of really, really great resources out there and people out there that are willing to share that stuff. And so you just try to, you know, pick their brain and become better every single day. Awesome. Well, before I let you go, man, we got to bring up the haters. You know, you're in New England. I'm from New England originally predictions for this year. Patriots. I plan on being in Minnesota for the Super Bowl. I was, I was, I am going to be in attendance. I was there last year in, I guess, the talkings that you were saying, I was there the time before that when we beat the Seahawks. So I, even though Minnesota and February is probably not the best place in the world to be, I like our team a lot this year. I love what, I mean, you got to like Tom Brady. And I just like all the additions we've made this year. Yeah. And you know, I'll take Bell check and Brady all day long. They've definitely got a system. Yeah, they're doing something right. Yeah, man, in terms of like perfected system and process, they've definitely got one for sure. Much like you, man, right, add people to the team to the roster and they just right put them in in the system and they perform. And that's what it's all about. So well, that's great, man. And listen, I know you got to go. You're very busy. Thank you so much. This has probably been an expensive hour for you. So we are grateful for your time. My pleasure, man. I thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. The pleasure is all ours. So for listeners, once again, thanks for listening. If you like this episode, let us know. Give us a rating on iTunes, Stitcher, subscribe, market stuff like this to come. And as always, I appreciate you, the listener. And we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now. Thanks for listening to Mortgage Marketing Radio. One more truth in Mortgage Marketing. Get more free training and resources at MortgageMarketingInstitute.com. Hey guys, what's up real quick? You've heard about the Mortgage Marketing Pro membership before. 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