Ep# 63: Building Your Foundation to Sustainable Success

In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with the real estate agents is essential for success. However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge. With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections. Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read. Chris has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals. And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business. To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy of the case study today. You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can too. Don't miss out. Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Mortgage Marketing Radio Brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute, your number one source for truth in mortgage marketing. Hey listeners, Jeff Zimper, welcome to this episode of Mortgage Marketing Radio. Thanks for tuning in. And what seems to be growing in popularity is these free t-shirts, this free swag that we've been given away at Mortgage Marketing Radio. I've got a closet full of these, both sizes, large and extra large, Mortgage Marketing Radio t-shirts. So if you're loving the podcast, you're getting value out of it. I appreciate you being a listener and follower, grateful for that. And I want to reward you for following and listening and continue this journey together. And to do so, I'm thanking you with a free t-shirt. How do I do that? Real simple, leave me a review on iTunes on the podcast, a couple of three, four, five stars there, whatever you want to do, a couple of comments, let me know what you get out of the podcast, any specific results that it's helped you achieve. Once you do that, just email me that you've left a review and include your mailing information and your shirt size, larger, extra large. And I'll send you out a free t-shirt, matter of fact, I got two recipients of the t-shirt right here. Let me announce their names. Here we are, which we got Cody Fraer out of Bakersfield, California, Rick Vargas out of Santa Fe, New Mexico, and Jeff Aguilera, also out of Bakersfield. So hopefully Cody and Jeff don't run into each other at Chipotle, both wearing the same t-shirt. There's fights going to break out there, I think. So anyway, that's how you get your free t-shirt, right? Just email me info at mortgagemarketinginstitute.com. Let me know you left a review, mailing address, send shirt size, and we'll get that off to you ASAP. So let's get into this week's episode, such a big fan of my guest this week, Kelly rescindes. She's the EVP of sales and business development for Paramount Partners Group, which is a division of Paramount Equity mortgage. Kelly is just a rock star. Not only a former top producer over 15 years, 20 years actually in the industry, but 15 years at the old Washington Mutual, if anybody remembers that, Wells Fargo, and then of course now, right, since 2011, EVP of sales for Paramount Partners, and a consistent mega producer top performer, always ranked in the top 1% of the company she's worked at. And what I love about Kelly is that she not only has the plan and the tactics of the strategy of how do you become more efficient and effective in your business, but how do you become more efficient as a person on your day to day life, right? How are you showing up not only in your job, but in your personal life? And are you intentional in creating and designing the life that you're truly intended and capable of living, if you will? So every time I have a chance to talk with Kelly, it's just, it's like a lesson, right? It's like a wisdom, a lesson in wisdom and knowledge and just dropping some serious bombs. So I know that you're going to enjoy this session with Kelly as much as I have. She's come out with a brand new book. There's a link in the show notes. It's called Foundation to Sustainable Success, a guide to mastering the mortgage business. I'm going to put links to the show notes in there. She on her website, she's actually got downloadable resources that you as a loan officer can use to help build a business plan. You're daily and weekly activities, kind of an accountability structure for you and all that stuff. So definitely check that out in the show notes for links to get access to her book and all those free resources. And there's so much content that Kelly always brings to share, so much good stuff in this book. I mean, I barely scratch the surface. So Kelly agreed to come back and do a part two of this interview in the new year. So with that said, let's transition into this week's show. Kelly, welcome to the show. Hi, Jeff. How you doing? Fantastic. I'm trying to think the last time that I interviewed you was about three years ago, probably. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I love time. Yeah. A lot's changed. Absolutely. And I'm so glad to reconnect with you on a number of fronts, but number one primarily because of your brand new book, Foundation to Sustainable Success, a conscious guide to mastering the mortgage business. Congratulations for writing a book. Thank you. We're going to talk about it. Obviously, I'm going to put links to the book and the show notes and other stuff and resources that we mentioned here so people can get your book and connect with you. And I'm going to unpack the book today, as you know, but for the listeners, right? They heard the official interview, kind of some background on new stats, but what's the big headline? Who's Kelly recent as what is she all about? Yeah. You know, I've been in this industry for a long time and super passionate about helping people within our industry just create more joy, just interviewing loan officers and real estate agents and other people. The one thing is everyone wants to be successful that's out there, but unfortunately a lot of people don't feel like a success personally. And so my purpose has really just been drilled down into making a huge impact in people's lives and helping them increase their joy and reduce their suffering and just giving them some new ways to think differently about how they approach this industry. Yeah. And I have to say, you know, the last time I interviewed you and I think why, you know, if I dare say, right, how does special connection with you in a way is because of that of where you're coming from, right? That heart-centered kind of leadership and we're truly wanting to make a difference that really shows up in who you are in your communication style and definitely in this book. So just, you know, I just want to acknowledge you for that because, you know, not everybody in this industry comes from that place. Yeah. And that's part of it. I think that's why we have such a high level of burnout is that a lot of companies and individuals have prioritized, you know, competition or ego over compassion and joy and just, you know, connection. So I definitely love to see that change in our industry going forward. Those are some pretty foreign words in the mortgage industry. Yeah. For sure. Passion, joy, right? For going ego and profit? What are you talking about? I know. I know. Well, the good news is that you can still prosper and live and he goes, egoless life in this business. So it is not, you know, a trade-in. It is a different way to approach the business. Yeah. Hey, man, to that. And I have to tell you and you know this as well, you know, I've interviewed, of course, a lot of top producers. You are, you know, are and have been a top producer and you work with a lot. That's one of the things I definitely find about the top producers is they are heart-centered and they do, you know, as Dave Ramsey says, leads with the heart of a teacher, not of a salesperson. You've seen that as well. Yeah, I think, I think we've seen both, to be honest. We all encounter top producers that probably haven't evolved to that level yet, but there are definitely people that are in our industry that are at the top that a lot of times you don't even know about it. You know, my mentor is somebody in the industry that has in certain years done over a billion dollars in personal production and most people don't even know his name. And so it is refreshing when you come across people like that and ones that just, you know, are in a place where they're willing to share whatever they've done with other people, but in a very humble fashion. But we definitely have both. We still have those top producers that you run into and they've got to tell you the second that they meet you, how big their pipeline is, which is, you know, something that you just see that level of significance that they crave on this industry. Hmm. Interesting. Well, and so I think our topic then is good for today. You know, the title of the book, Foundations is Sustainable Success. Why that title? Yeah, I think that everyone has achieved success at some point in this industry, whether you had a great year, a great month or just, you know, had some success in meeting agents and building relationships. But I think what's incredibly difficult to do is to build a foundation for yourself that you feel fulfilled and you know that it's sustainable and able to weather any market changes, whether that's program changes, rate changes, inventory changes, just it really is not dependent on anything external. And that's really what the title is about is just building that internal platform that allows you to be successful in any market. Hmm. Yeah, and I love the fact that you've combined those two things. I find very important for any loan officers I might be coaching, which is number one, start with a foundation because without that, your results aren't going to be sustainable. Yeah. And a lot of times you're just only as good as your last best month. And I think that's what I see as so many producers that are out there just live in fear that they might have a great month and then they have to start over. And when you really drill down into some specifics in their business that can create more predictability and more success long term, it will help them feel much better about what's going on in their business. Absolutely. Okay. So let's start unpack some of the things from the book. I obviously have highlighted and tabbed a bunch of different, I've got about 20, 20 different red tabs on this thing. So we're going to get cranking here. I'm going to start from the beginning because, listen, I believe this so much is that you right out of the page two of your book, you talk about that you've got to be open to reinventing yourself or your business to adapt to the changing market. What do you, do you see loan officers open minded enough to reinvent themselves? You know, you see, you see a mixture of both. I think that we can separate people into either having a fixed mindset or a growth mindset. And I believe somebody with a growth mindset writes a new story every day. I look back on my personal growth journey and every day I think I grew a little bit more. And you really have to be willing to be detached to whatever it was that created success for you yesterday and just be open and willing to look at things differently. We can learn a lot from one another if we're just more open minded. Okay. Well, one of the things you talk about is your mindset, right? And we've got to start with our mindset and our core beliefs. And I so align with that as well. I think that relates to the title of your book is the foundation because what I find in coaching loan officers often is that's the first call it a problem area, if you will, opportunity is the mindset. Yeah, and I think we're the start. If you think about why I called it a conscious guide, really I'm trying to increase mindfulness in our industry, which means you have the self awareness to know what you bring to the table and mindset is the top thing that all of us bring to the table. And so if you really see somebody that's complaining or, you know, their company never has the best rates or process or whatever it is and you see somebody constantly looking at external factors that change how they feel personally, that's really where we need to see the largest shift is the complete ownership that regardless of what external circumstances exist in your life or problems or whatnot, that you have this unshakable mindset that says, this is happening for me right now. I have an opportunity to grow myself, either in accepting of the situation or making a decision to change it. And there's a lot of entitlement and complaining amongst industry producers that are out there. And when you think about it, it runs most of us in leadership positions ragged because we then start to feel like we can never do enough to be able to, you know, satisfy their endless list of preferences and cravings. And so we've got to shift the mindset. I mean, not really is where, you know, where things change. It's not that my life is better than anyone else. It's that I approach it differently. And that's why I'm in a constant state of joy versus everything always goes right for me. And that's really not what it is. So when you make that commitment that mindset is the most important thing that you can develop in your business, it will change everything for you. Well, what are some things people can do or that you've done to number one, have that self-awareness, right? And you know, you talk a lot about like triggers and stuff in the book, but to start to have that awareness and then make some mindset shifts. Yeah. The first thing that you have to do is be open to the idea that you are not your thoughts. That is really what mindfulness is. It's the separation between who you are, that amazing, authentic masterpiece and all of these other thoughts that have been, you know, trying to steal your joy for as long as you can probably remember. And so it's just a process of waking up to that idea that you have the awareness to know that your thoughts and your emotions don't define who you are. And then once you get to that place of awareness, you can start to rebuild the person that you want to become. And so for my life, what worked best was I just came up with this unshakable mindset, you know, and outlined the beliefs and themes that I needed to adopt in my life that would just change how everything around me affected my state. And so I really, you know, when I share that in the book, I share what I believe would be a good start to a success mindset. Yeah. And I know you talk about different levels here as well, right? Level one, two, and three, as we go on this journey. Yeah. And really level one is about who you're being. And that kind of includes your mindset, your core beliefs, you know, your emotional intelligence as you approach every single day, how you manage triggers and self-sabotage. Because how we show up is really going to, you know, determine how we approach our goals in our business plan and our relationships and our ability to get more referrals or develop longer term relationships with referral partners. So, you know, focusing on that first level of just who you're being and getting that mindset to a place where it is unshakable will help you, you know, some tips that, you know, I have used in my life are, you know, I kind of have my morning routine and it includes reviewing my I am statement. So if I'm somebody that's not very patient today and loses my cool, I would probably, you know, create a mindset and an I am statement list around that that I am patient. I am accepting. I am stable. Some of the things that might actually be the opposite of who you are today and you can just kind of start reprogramming your mindset for the first time. Well, and that's why I like the way your book kind of takes us through this is it starts with kind of that core foundational stuff, right, which is mindset. And I think the point you're making in the book here is that unless you've got, right, level one, the foundation, your mindset, right, you've got to have that under control before any system will work, but I think also a system would, would sometimes help people deal, right, better deal if they're triggered. Does that make sense? Absolutely. I mean, I want to say it's not a requirement. So there are a lot of successful people that just have goals and have a business plan and they execute great, which are the second two levels of the book. But what I find with, with people that haven't focused on their own level of joy is that they're either, I mean, they're either just lacking something in their life, like happiness or a feeling of success, or they treat other people very poorly. And it's one of those two categories that usually happens because we know people that are just achievement focused only. And they're the ones that have high turnover. I mean, if you're somebody that has a team that's listening today, just to be brutally honest, if you've had a lot of turnover in the last year, that is where you've got to focus more on your own self awareness, because people will want to work with you. They will want to support you if you're somebody that really is being, you know, somebody that is successful on the inside, as well as on the outside. So what you're proposing and what your book is really all about is not just exclusively strategies and tactics of how do I originate more loan volume? It's how do I also become the best version of me that I can. Absolutely. And really just being more mindful, you know, if we lived in a more conscious nation, and I'm just going to kind of say nation because most of the people on the call live here, it would change just a level of harmony. I mean, we're in a world right now in an industry where we're plagued with addiction and unhappiness and people having financial devastation and then success the next day and then devastation again, the next. Like it is, I've just never felt like we've had a better opportunity to really just become more conscious of how we show up, how we impact the people that are around us. People don't realize, you know, one email that you send that is really critical and really judgmental of somebody else, it just has a ripple effect in someone's life. And we've got a responsibility. If you're on the call and you want to be a top producer, like we want to be kind and compassionate and be somebody that other people can respect. We don't want to be that power, hungry person that nobody wants to emulate. Absolutely. And that of course, you know, has an impact on our referability as well. If we are, you know, being that toxic person. Yeah. And I think what I watched a lot of top producers do is cater to their referral partners and cater to the people that they believe bring them revenue. And then they turn around and they treat the escrow officer or, you know, the internal office staff or other people poorly and it's going to impact you. It will absolutely impact you. They are just as important to your business as the people that are referring business to you. Yeah. So there's some self work to be done there. And as you talk about in your book, right? Well, those levels are number one is our emotional intelligence, right? It's our foundation. Absolutely. Okay. Level two is this is the second later layer where we dive in actual strategies and vision and business and marketing plans and then level three is execution. So moving forward, we'll kind of touch on some of these areas a little bit deeper. But I like what you talk about. I think this is such a relevant point to bring up for people, particularly in this idea of sustainability. You and I both know, right? Many elbows around the rollercoaster ride up, down, up, down. Why does that happen? They keep wondering that. And I've been preaching this for a long time because you talk about creating a predictable model. And people are in that scarcity mindset, which you refer to earlier, right? With people blaming others, excuses, et cetera. But I love what you talked about here. I highlighted this as a lesson. Talk about how the truth, the ugly truth is everybody wake up every day, just excited about there. They got to do every day. Yeah. I would tell you that as you kind of chat with different people and see how they show up at work in the morning, I would probably guess that the majority of people in this business don't wake up very excited about what they're going to have to do that day, whether it's a combination between going out and calling on new contacts or dealing with that loan that, you know, maybe a low appraisal came in and you've got to make a tough phone call or or deal with things that you really don't want to do. But I don't think that most people wake up and actually love this industry. And I think a lot of the reason for that is because most of us value freedom, deep down, that's a core value that a lot of humans really like. And this industry has actually created some issues with that because of the amount of money that people can make, they lack the freedom to really be able to do what they want to do. And maybe, you know, they've woken up over a period of time and yet they have this lifestyle that they've got to stay in this industry to be able to support. And I think that's really where you can go through some self-identification and figure out ways that you can have a lot more fun and be creative and be in the mortgage industry at the same time. I mean, take, for instance, what you're doing, you know, this is, it's something that is a little bit outside of the mortgage industry, but you enjoy it. Being able to offer, you know, this podcast and this impact that's really going to change people's lives, like all of us have that same capability just from our desk, whether it's going out and connecting with realtors and doing charity work or doing so many other things that could bring us joy. I just think that it can become groundhogs day. And so you don't get excited about waking up and going to making, you know, 10 realtors calls or getting rejected by nine people over the course of eight hours. It definitely, you've got to be in that state where this industry is not going to steal your joy. So you touched on something there about you said, go volunteer with realtors or whoever. And on a couple of calls, I've been on recently with realtors. I've had that conversation where, you know, and I'm sure you've heard it where, you know, they say something like, you know, I just don't, I don't know if I'm I'm passionate about this anymore. They start questioning, right? Whether they should do it or not. What advice do you give somebody when that you hear that? Yeah, you know, I'm going to tell you that there are two Ps that have actually had a big impact on how people view happiness in the last 10 years. And that's passion and purpose. We hear a lot more about them if you're on social media. It's do you have passion? Do you have purpose? That kind of thing. I think that we've got to kind of approach this from a from a from a different P, which is just the practicality of the fact that we need to earn a living. And you don't have to be passionate about doing loans. You can jump into this industry, make a great living, jump out and go find your passion, playing a musical instrument or hiking or doing whatever it is that you love. Nothing says that you have to have passion in what you're doing. And so, you know, I really tell people and encourage them, like, break down your day, hire yourself to make widgets for half of the day. You know, go to work, actually do a job. I can tell you that my parents weren't thinking about passion when they showed up to support my family. But we've gotten, you know, we've really gotten away from that. And it's a combination of both. You know, I've been able to find my passion in leaving my job originating and leading a company because I have a greater passion for impacting people and other things. So, I think that what you've got to do is just find a way to be more disciplined and present. And the passion is going to come, like try new things and you'll figure out new things within your business that you actually enjoy doing. Yeah, try new things for sure. I love what you said, though, about volunteering with realtors or whoever else, right? Other affiliates that you work with and around your business. So, that's great advice, by the way. I'm glad you kind of brought that back to reality. And for whatever reason, right? It's like, oh my gosh, we all need to be so fulfilled and inspired all day long 24-7 today. And great example with your parents there as well, because most of us are in that age bracket where we remember our parents. I can guarantee you, yeah, my mom, right? Single mom. She didn't enjoy going to the bank, being a bank teller. I'm sure she was passionate about that, but she had two kids to feed at home, you know? Yeah. And just to kind of go back to that giving because we talked about it, part of the reason for increasing mindfulness and consciousness across this industry and you know, I would just say the nation is so that we can be in a place where we are of service to other people. It has been proven that the greatest level of joy that we achieve in our life is when we are, you know, in connection and service for other people. And so you can do that in this industry. I mean, whether it's, you know, habitat for humanity or going down and grabbing tenor agents and working in a soup kitchen and doing that kind of thing, just getting out of our self-absorbed lives for a minute and sharing the gratitude that this industry has given to us would would make a huge impact in the world. It's funny the impact that that actually has on your business too. As you come back more centered, more balanced, right? Perhaps a little more patient, grateful. Yeah. And gratitude is one of those that in the mindset that you need to be successful. Like it has to be included in there. If you do not have a grateful heart, it is extremely difficult to live a life of joy. Good point. And the other thing I want to touch on before we move off of this is I also brought that up because I want to speak to those that are listening that think that calling agents should always be fun and talking about loans and taking apps should always be fun. And I'm just so glad that you made the point that much of what we need to do to have success, as you say in the book, building sustainability is about repetitiveness and doing the same things every day that you know will make you successful. And I love, I say these exact words, the stuff that's going to make you successful, it's not exciting. It's not sexy. It's boring. Yeah. Unless you like, you know, totally love making cold calls. And that's awesome. Maybe you're that person. I don't know. Maybe, you know, you love doing that intake, you know, app with somebody and spending two hours doing your high trust interview. That's cool. But I think everybody gets the point. It's like, look, not every aspect of of our careers are going to be just so joy filled. Yeah. And of our life in general, you know, one of the most of life is boring and mundane, isn't it? Yeah. And well, in order to really build sustainable joy, where you are capable of maintaining happiness in spite of whatever's going on in your life. And we all, you know, we can't, we can't run away from problems and family crises and everything else in our life. So you've got to stay in that, in that place. Yeah. And like you said, let's, let's, let's live in reality as well. We need to make a living. We need to write. Yeah. And I would say, you know, the secret, having been a top producer and and coaching a lot of top producers in my career as well, is that like, we don't love doing all those things. And I think that the difference that people need to adopt is that discipline is what's important. Like, I'm asked all the time, how do you stay so motivated? And I'm honest, I don't even know what motivation is. So I'm so disciplined that I don't have to think about whether or not I feel like doing something. And I always joke, like you might think I love eating kale, but I really think it's disgusting, but I still eat it because I know that there's such health advantages to my to my body. And the same goes with, you know, picking up the phone and making those calls and being able to do all those things, like, quit thinking so much. Like, that's the part where your thoughts are what are creating the issues in your business. It's not actually making the calls. It's the thought about making the calls. And you've got to get that self awareness to be able to know, like, not doing this is going to come at a cost. And what we're doing, when we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing is ridiculously silly. Like, when I look at the amount of time people spend on, you know, the internet just looking at clothes or on social media or playing games or doing all these other things, watching TV, you add up all that time from last year. If you would have just taken like a sliver of it and been more productive and disciplined, you'd probably be healthier, be happier, and have a lot more financial abundance for your family. Yeah. Big, big lesson there, discipline, discipline makes me think of my, uh, one of my favorite podcasts, Jaco, right? Yeah. Yeah, you know, his tagline, right? Discipline equals freedom. Absolutely. And it's not fun. Just accept that it's not fun. And the people that are doing it, probably not having fun. So all the top producers are making a lot of calls. They're not having fun. That's not fun, but it's worth it. Now to to that point, right? We can hire people when we get to a certain level to outsource that assistance or whatnot to do the stuff. Either we're not good at or don't want to do, but depending where you're at, you just made me to suck it up and do it for a while. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. All right. So let's transition into some general beliefs of top producers. I'm not going to hit you with all these. I'm just a couple that stood out for me. But I love the fact that you say, um, well, this, their number one priority of top producers, according to, uh, you, which you would know, is, uh, opportunity and lead creation. Yes. And this, if you look at what most people spend their time doing in this industry is not the top item on their agenda. I mean, people are going to start gravitating towards things that they're good at, which the amount of time that loan office or spend on their working pipeline is ludicrous. And, you know, just our level of trust, I'd say, for our teammates to do their part is low. And so that's something that you have to focus on doing because every single day, it needs to be scheduled time, whether it's going out in the field to develop new relationships or calling your existing database or coming up with new strategies to be able to market. You've got to make sure that that is prioritized on your schedule every single day. You talk about, um, spending at least 50% of your time on hunting for new business. Yeah. I would recommend that. I think everyone on the call has probably heard a lot of the, you know, fears and other things that have been created in our industry that technology is going to replace a lot of what a loan officer's doing. And I'll tell you what my opinion is. I believe we're just another lead source. So if you think about the internet or some of the other things, those are lead sources. So somebody might get, you know, new clients because they've got a great website or portal or whatnot, our ability to be feet on the street or just another lead portal. And so that is really what our value is. We've got to get away from the value is taking a loan application and gathering customer information because at some point, that's going to be done for us. I mean, somebody 10 years from now might be able to put their thumb on a thumbprint screen and have every ounce of information brought up about them for us not to have to worry about, but it's the connection. It's that ability to help them plan their future wealth, plan their future financial goals, other things that's really going to be able to differentiate us and not be something that the internet can provide. So creating opportunities has got to be your top priority. So not only creating opportunities, but also just by your sheer kind of illustration of technology and it obviously already, right, online apps and all that kind of displacing much of what NLO used to do has taken apps, then we need to get much more intentional than as well about that that customer experience process, right? Absolutely. When you sit down with somebody, I mean, we have such an ability to make a difference in their life for the next 30 years, just in the questions that we ask or the curiosity that we kind of bring up because there's so many people out there that are miserable financially. Maybe they don't know how to budget. They've never thought about retirement, but every single night they go to sleep, they're worried about it. We are in a very high impact seat and we've got to realize we may be the only person that they sit down with in person. A lot of people don't ever meet with their retirement, you know, plan or anyone else and we've just, we've got to do a better job of meeting people in person. So, you know, I want to pause on that. It's clearly then your believer that L.O. should be meeting face to face when possible. They should. And if you look at the statistics on closing rates, whether it's, you know, from the National Association of Realters or anyone else, you have just a much higher chance of closing if you meet somebody face to face. And I know I've interviewed a number of top producers that subscribe to the same belief. Let's hear your response then to those, to the response from the customer who's like, I just don't have time. Can we just do it over the phone or man, can I do it online or, you know, how do you respond to those objections? Well, I think you have to evaluate your own vision for your business and just realize like how are you spending your time? We can set boundaries, you know, if somebody doesn't have time for us, we can make a decision that we don't have time for them or or we can say, hey, let me just explain this process to you over the phone and why it's important. And if you make a decision not to meet me, I'm still going to help you. But what I can tell you is that it's just going to be a different experience for you. Hopefully we talk a little bit about my my referral recommendations here on the call, but you just have a much higher chance of increasing your referability if you meet with them in person. And you have a much lower chance of getting referrals from somebody that you don't meet in person. So you just have to look at it and say, is this transaction worth it? Is it going to take my time away from people that I should actually be helping and building? And it's just really up to you because we all can look back and say, I should have fired more people in my career. The ones that don't have time for you are the same ones that are going to drag their feet getting things over. And you know, may not value what you're doing for them. And it might just look at you as a commodity. And I know that I don't like feeling like a commodity. Well, yeah. And so speaking of commodity, that you know, goes back to mindset, right? And something I often ask loan officers, are you a transactional loan officer or relational loan officer? Because the transactional one is someone who's just going to take the app, sure, you want to quote, here's what it is. And then all of a sudden your whole conversation from then on is all about price, not advice, and where that leads. You mentioned the referability. And let's definitely, while we're there, let's unpack that because I don't want to miss that. And I love that in your book, you have like referral efficiency targets and things like that. And you have, you know, you talk about database management. Where do you want to start there? Yeah, I would just say, you know, my general belief, and this came from, you know, starting in this industry in the late 90s and just recognizing, I mean, I think I exactly five minutes after I took my first job, interest rates went up by a full percent. And everyone around me was panicked. It was, I mean, I was in an office that was thriving and everyone was excited and rates go up, one full percent and boom, everyone, you know, just their state changed overnight. And I started to watch what people around me did and I realized that what I was seeing was they weren't pulling enough opportunity from their existing opportunity. And so I started to just make more granular goals for myself, like for every single person that I did alone for, if I set an actual tangible goal, I was going to be able to increase my business a lot faster. And so I started sharing that message with people. So instead of just saying, hey, I'd appreciate it if you send anybody to me that needs a loan, I would, I would be more specific. And that specific, you know, script was, you know, my goal is over the course of a year, you're going to refer at least two people to me that either need to refinance or purchase. And at the time, I didn't realize, you know, the, the science behind why you need to be clear and what you asked for. But over a period of time, I did. And we were able to build our business very quickly by having a referral efficiency of two, which meant we were getting two referrals annually from everyone that we closed alone for. And there were some people that referred for people and we had, you know, some people that didn't refer any, but we had a target. And that's really what you're trying to accomplish by adopting this referral efficiency is that you actually have a specific goal for referrals. Instead of this generalization that, oh, yeah, I work by referral. Well, I meet with people that have been in the industry for 15 years that are doing 15 million a year and they tell me they work by referral. And, and no offense, I laugh hysterically to myself because that would be virtually impossible. You know, if you really were focused on getting referrals, your business should go up every single year regardless of what the market's doing. And so just telling people what your goal is, you know, I'm really clear when I, when I talk to people, you know, I'm going to have my best 2018 yet and I need your help. And this is the way that you can help me. And I've also studied communication styles in my career and getting people to make more promises to you when you make promises to them will also drive human behavior as well. So just making that goal and knowing that if you manage your database different and pull more referrals from it, like there will be that that time in your life where you no longer have to go out and hunt for more business because you've created enough opportunity for yourself, which I think for any top producers where you want to be. Excellent. I love the scripting that you kind of tied in there. When do you typically, you know, deliver that message such as, hey, you know, I'm going to have 2018's can be my best year ever. Here's how you can help me do that. Are you doing that up front or towards after clothes? I would do it forever. So basically, I would have a tracking tool whether it's, you know, hopefully you've got a great customer relationship manager or some way to do it, but every single phone call that you make to your database and, you know, at a minimum, somebody should be calling quarterly if not monthly, if they have the capacity to. Fifth, are you decision made? What is the focus of every single call? You know, the number one focus is just to develop a deeper relationship with your customer so that you can be of service to them and they can also help you build your business. But every single call you want to make, you know, I mean, celebrate like, hey, your halfway there. I helped the Smiths last month. It was great. I really appreciate it. Do you have, you know, do you have my cards? Do you think you need more at work? Do you think you need more at home? I mean, a simple question to loan officers across the nation. I always ask them like, can you tell me right now? Is every single person in your database prepared to hand out your business card at work at home? And most people don't ever send business cards to somebody's work, but we found in our business that 60% of our referrals were coming from co-workers, not from friends or family. And so we had to make sure with every phone call it was, do you have enough of my cards? You know, when you overhear somebody talking about buying a home, I mean, we were training our database to really be just kind of our greatest source of referrals. What do you think gets in the way of most LOS actually making time to co-, because, you know, you've heard it so many times. Oh, I know I should be. What the hell keeps getting in their way? Yeah, it's just self-sabotage. I mean, when you really unpack like why we aren't where we believe we should be or somebody hasn't actualized their own potential or, you know, an LOS getting in the way of their own success. I mean, it just comes down to something super simple. It's just they're just sabotaging themselves. They're not doing what they know they should be doing when they're supposed to be doing it because of some other deeper reason most of the time. Whether they're really lazy, they don't think that they're worthy of the success. They don't know what they're going to do with it. It's just they're not prepared to handle it like we don't really know, but it's pretty simple to overcome when somebody adopts a discipline mindset and they just come up with proven activities that yield proven results. And, you know, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how to build a mortgage business like call more people, talk to more realtors and find additional, you know, referral sources. And the reason why there's only, you know, a handful of top producers to the rest of the, the, I'm in a college is mediocre people that are in our industry is because the mediocre people just haven't made the decision. Like they just haven't made the decision to push themselves. Now, it made the decision ties into then kind of the vision for yourself and your business. Absolutely. I mean, once you make a decision, then it's easy. Now, you've got a vision, you've got your goals, you've got your plan, you can, you know, come up with your referral efficiency rate, you can focus on developing more realtor relationships and just kind of move forward. But I just think that we've got way too many people that should be employees that are trying to run businesses in mortgage. And we need to, I mean, you either need to be self motivated or you need to be told what to do. And it just the, you know, with the average fundings per loan officer at two right now, that, that tells us one of two things. Either you got people making way too much money by closing one loan, which is not sustainable. You know, we know margins are going to get compressed in the future. So you better prepare the doing five to six loans is probably going to yield a similar income at some point in the future. You know, so we've got, we've got that situation or we've just got people that are barely doing anything to close a couple loans. And I don't think that those people are going to be able to move forward either. And they should get a job with a company that's providing leads. They should get a job someplace where they've got minimum hours and minimum requirements because they just, they haven't done anything with the freedom of being a 100% commissioned person has provided. Yeah, that goes back to self awareness understanding, you know, are you the type of person who's going to, you know, you're talking your book, you reference the, the disc profile, you know, high D high I, who's going to get out there and get after it basically versus, you know, sit somewhere and be handed leads. Yeah, no one wants to admit they're lazy. Nobody wants to come to that place. And I would just say reframe it. It just some of us need more structure that others. And some of us were really good at saying, I am an in a structuralist, you know, business. And I'm going to create my own structure. You know, all my assistants had crystal clear job descriptions and accountability that they had to get back to me. You know, with my leadership team now, that's what they have to do. They've got to give me a report once a week. And it's not because they don't trust them. It's because that accountability is something that they can then bring down to their loan officers as well. Like we've got, we've got to be the change that we want to see in other people that are around us. And so the better we get, you know, the better people that work in our existing companies are going to get. Yeah. And then you alluded to that a moment ago when you talked about minimum standards, that's definitely key. I agree. That needs to change big time. And then how are we monitoring and measuring, right? Their activities because we need to support them in that. We can't just like, you know, like it used to be back in the day. All right, good luck. Here's your cards. Go hit the bricks, pal. You know, yeah. Yeah. And I think you're going to see companies shift over a period of time. You know, we've watched companies fail in the last few months that have been around forever. And you start looking at why it's just extremely difficult to manage expenses in an industry where margins are being compressed. It's difficult because everyone wants it all. They want the best rates, the highest comp and the most support. And for a loan officer that really is not possible for a company to do, if we have to have a blend of all of them and it's no longer the company that needs to be the best, you need to be the best. Because at the end of the day, if you're the best, it doesn't matter what you have. You know, your rates might be average. Your marketing materials might be average, but if you show up and do the right thing and create the right value for your customers, you're going to continue to win. Yes. And be very intentional. Have a plan. Execute that plan and continue to refine. Every day. I mean, every day, like you have an opportunity to write a new story. And that's really where I want to touch. I would say this industry is just getting people to think differently than what we've been taught. And I'm right there with the rest of the leaders that have created some other entitlement issues that we have in our own industry. You know, we can't get frustrated with our team when we're out there recruiting other people and making promises. Big fat here in bonuses. Yeah. And everything else, like we just need to come back to a place of normalcy, which is you've got to be really good at your trade. And that trade is going out and developing new relationships with people that are going to refer business to you, adding value and doing a great job communicating throughout the process so that when the deal closes, that everyone involved in that transaction wants to do business with you again. And they want their friends, families, and co-workers to do business with you again. And we will have nothing to fear of any online loan application or anything that's out there if we continue to increase our own value proposition on a daily basis. That's the key of what kind of value are we adding. That's awesome. Well, I know we are out of time because we both have busy schedules and other things to do. So I want to close out just by saying, man, we barely even scratched the surface of this book. I wish, you know, well, here's what we'll do. Have you back in the new year and maybe do a set part two? How's that? I would love it. I would love it. And thank you for everything that you do for our industry. I mean, we do need to make an effort to increase the level of wisdom and knowledge that we have so that we can give that back. Oh, no. Thank you. It is a passion project. So as I said, I'll put links to your book and your website in the show notes. If anybody wanted to reach out to you kind of individually, any recommendations there, email or something else. Yeah, just email me. It's just K Resendez at paramountpartnersgroup.com. And I would love to be able to chat or help you in any way that I can. Yeah, definitely get the book people. It's an awesome read, especially if you've got a little bit of downtime over the holidays. It might be great for you as you're planning out 2018 and building your plan and getting intentional and doing a little bit of that self-work as you said. And Jeff, just one thing, you know, on the website, I actually have every tool that a loan officer needs to build their business in 2018. So if they do have some downtime, you know, we've got business plans, weekly activity plans, and other things for them to be able to reference there. Awesome. Good. Then everybody go to the link in the show notes. And once again, Kelly, thank you so much. I know we'll connect again in the new year. Hey, if I don't, I'm wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year right now. To you too. Thanks for having me. You bet. All you listeners, same to you. Holiday wishes for you all. Thanks for tuning into this episode. As always, I appreciate you and we will see you on the next one. Bye for now. Hey, guys, what's up real quick? You've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before, and I just want to quickly remind you of that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased loans. You need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase business for you. Well, good news. Our mortgage marketing pro membership helps loan officers like you close more loans without the hassle of chasing agents or cold calling. Done for you agent classes, expert training videos, a marketing automation platform that automates the entire process for you, everything you need to build your personal brand in your local market, attract and convert agents into referral partners. 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