Ep #78:How to Rise Above "Great Rates and "Great Service" by Telling Digital Stories That Sell

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Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Hey listeners, Jeff DeSimper, welcome to this episode of mortgage marketing radio. So glad you're here. And on this episode I am featuring James Robert Lay. He is the CEO at Digital Growth Institute and he's on a mission to simplify digital marketing. So banks, credit unions, you, a mortgage loan officer can grow. So we are talking about the convergence of digital change and disruption and displacement and how do we survive and thrive in the coming shifts that are happening in the mortgage space, with regards to technology. So on this episode, you know, James spends a lot of time working with financial institutions, banks and so forth on mapping out their, you know, the process for the customer experience, right, both from the point of lead generation to engagement to during the process and then post-close transaction. And so we just talk about really just have a kind of a great organic conversation. And how do you become a modern mortgage professional today, right? How do you integrate technology in a way that engages the user and positions you as relevant and helpful, right? Or as we say in the interview, right, stop selling, start helping. And what I love about this is that we talk about on this session about how the consumer expectations the benchmarks have changed and who's driving that change today for how you engage with a brand online. And those are companies like Amazon, Google, right? Yes, Rocket Mortgage and others, right? When you look about what technology does is enable the ease of use, if you will, there's the promise, the ease of engagement and interaction. And so how do we then duplicate that and how do we deliver that when it comes to being a modern mortgage professional? That's what we're going to talk about here on this episode. So hope you enjoy the show. If you like so, please let us know. We're going to leave a review, check out links to James Robert Lay and his company, the Digital Growth Institute, and you'll find links to his company in the show notes at digital growth.com. And with that said, let's get into this week's show. Hey, James, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, man. It's my pleasure. So real quick, let's do a quick backgrounder aside from the formal interview I do. Tell us what you do in the mortgage banking space and more importantly, why do you do it, man? At Digital Growth Institute, we're on a mission to simplify digital marketing. We want to help banks, credit unions grow, generate 10 times more loans, 10 times more deposits, 10 times more new accounts. 10 times, that's an aggressive number. I like it. How do you do that for people? We do it through digital marketing strategy and training. And then sometimes we help our clients actually implement those strategies and optimize them over time. Okay. All right. The topic, on top of mind, as you know, my listening audience is mostly retail, mortgage loan originators, some managers and executives listening as well. But let's face it, everybody's kind of aware of this influx of technology. There's people who are struggling, I think, in some degrees to adopt technology and integrate it into the overall process, particularly when you evaluate most of the mortgage originators are 50 plus, right? So it's not necessarily second skin for us. But here's what I think, you know what I talked about this before the other day is let's come at it from this angle first. What does the retail mortgage originator need to be aware of moving forward if they want to stay relevant and be considered as a viable choice in today's world? I think the biggest thing is that the world has changed. And technology is driving that change to where people have more options now than they have ever had before when it comes to, say, applying for a mortgage. People are in control of that buying journey and we must be prepared to help guide them along that journey because it's a stressful process. It's very complicated, it's very confusing. And people are just looking for someone that they can trust, for someone that they can help guide them to a better, bigger, brighter future. So if people are, you said a couple of things that's interesting in there and essentially I think what you're talking about there is that the buyer is in control today, right? Like in some of the branding classes I do for real estate agents, we talk about the old versus new rules of marketing, right? The old rules are you went and found a customer. Today, people find you, that's what you're saying. So people go online, they start this journey, they're consuming content from a variety of sources and so forth. What are some, if you would, best practices for the mortgage originator today who's listening to this who maybe doesn't have a strong presence online, digitally, Facebook, kind of, you know, man, not much there. People are looking for some direction, right? Where do I start? I think it starts with mindset and what I mean by that is, is being open to break free from legacy thinking, legacy systems and adopting a growth mindset to where that, I can do this. I can change my behavior and I can position myself as a helpful guy and for someone who has experienced in this industry, up to this point, they have viewed themselves as the hero in this narrative. But today, you cannot have two heroes in any narrative structure. The consumer in their own mind, they're the hero and they're just looking for someone to help them. So, the mortgage originator needs to take on a much more important role in my opinion than the hero, which is that of the guy, like an Obi-Wan Kenobi guiding Luke or a Mr. Miyagi guiding Danielson. Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that because it's funny you mentioned that to me the other day and in full disclosure for my listening audience, right? Being a former lone originator, I thought, hey, man, that's me, I'm the hero, right? But you pointed out so succinctly that, no, no, no, no, no, you're not the hero in the sense that your job is the guide, right? And to help them navigate and it shouldn't be about you necessarily, it's more about them. Yeah, and that requires, once again, a new mindset, it's empathy, it's being understanding because I think anytime, like, we can be totally cut off guard by the curse of knowledge. We know all of this stuff. We know how this mortgage process works forwards and backwards. We could do this in our sleep. But for someone who does this, maybe two, three or four times in their life, it's very complicated. It's very overwhelming. And one of the things to remember from an empathetic point of view is that the only way to escape the complexity of the mortgage process is through a journey of simplicity. Hmm. Okay. So what does that look like in the real world of a journey of simplicity is applying for getting a mortgage easier than it was before? Well, we look at things like rocket mortgage and how they have positioned that, quote, unquote, the eight minute mortgage. But I think what rocket has really done is just slick branding, marketing positioning. They're addressing the specific questions and concerns that a person has. And then they're offering a solution to a better future. Now, how can we apply this thinking of simplicity for a mortgage originator looking to go down on this own journey themselves? Start by mapping out what that journey looks like every step of the way. From the time that someone say maybe Google's or goes on Facebook, sees an ad, the key to consumer journey mapping is this, think these three questions. Where do you want me to go? What do you want me to do? And then how will you help me get there to the next step? Hmm. And when you start to put this out on a piece of paper or a whiteboard, you can quickly identify where gaps are in the journey today and the step that you can take, whether it be content, whether it be an ad, whether it be technology to help begin to bridge those gaps and move that consumer through the buying journey through awareness, then to consideration and then onwards towards purchase. And then the journey just doesn't end there because like with rocket mortgage, for example, they made it slick. They made that process very easy to apply. But it's still a 30-day process on average for them to close the loan. But what rocket has done is they've been well-versed in the communication where I think I've applied now what? Yeah. Yeah. So what would be some examples then? We're not rocket mortgage, right? What would be some ways that you're on the streets, mortgage originator can map out, provide milestones, guide posts along the way on that journey, whether that's different types of content, etc. What do you suggest there? Yeah. So just kind of talking through this off the top of my head. We have Facebook ad. Maybe it's a LinkedIn ad. We're wanting to work our LinkedIn connections. Maybe it's we have contacts with local realtors. So we get a lead a prospect in. And so they're in the awareness stage. They've identified, they raised their hand. Now they're moving to the stage of consideration. And that's where technology comes into play to really nurture those relationships over say a 20, 30, 40, 50 day time period so that we can position ourselves as that guide. So during this time period of nurturing, maybe we're singing them helpful articles, resources. Maybe it's the video that a mortgage originator might be producing and sharing, say on YouTube or on Facebook. But it's just something to help differentiate themselves in the sea of noise and the sea of sameness. And a lot of that comes through not selling and saying, are you ready to close, you're ready to apply? It's, hey, these are the things that you need to think about. These are common questions. I think one of the best ways to do that is just to sit down and almost kind of write out all the questions that you've ever been asked in the home buying process and then either create written content or even now video content like you and I are doing to answer these questions and get ahead of what some of these might be for someone. And it's interesting when I hear you say that and we're talking about technology. Of course, the audience is so diverse because some people have these awesome CRM, some people don't. Obviously, you and I get the power and recognize the value of a CRM because I can automate a lot of that. So it takes you out of the loop. But what I'm thinking is for my listeners is to your point about the video, there are various, like you said, what do you want me to do? Where do you want me to go? Was that the first two? Exactly. And how do you help me get there? How do you help me get there? Yeah. Next to that, and how can you map out different milestone points along the way? Video, it could be as simple as, you tell me if this makes sense, very simple example. But you've got a series of emails set up and is a link to a YouTube video that has that milestone. That's exactly right. And I would actually kind of, and I'm not trying to get too technical with this, but YouTube is a great starting point. Instead of YouTube, one of the technology platforms that can tie into a CRM-like platform say like a HubSpot or a Salesforce, is a platform called Wistia. And the reason Wistia is that you could actually then affirm whether or not someone watched that video, how much that video did they wish. And then based upon that viewing behavior, then the next follow-up would be A or B. Right, right. Yeah, I like that. So Wistia, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. It's a video hosting platform, but of course, it gives you some analytics to give you some insights into that. And another tool that's popular in our industry, I think you've heard of it as a bomb bomb video. Exactly. Yeah. I think video today, it's, I mean, even just within the last three, four, five years, it has become much easier to set up and to shoot a video. And we're not talking tens of thousands of dollars. Yeah. Well, this production is not tens of thousands of dollars. Exactly. And to your point, whenever we're first getting started, it's about the content. Right, right. Exactly. It's about the help. That's the key point. How do you answer the question? Because I'm sure you deal with people like, oh, I don't want to be on video. I don't like how I look on video. How do you over help them overcome that? I think it's just getting used to this new way of communicating because there's three ways to communicate. There's the written word. And there's audio. But video brings a whole new level of communication because it's, you can see, you can look at the body language, the personality, the emotion, the, exactly the humanity of this. And that's like one of the key principles that we believe with digital marketing, it's not about the technology. It's about using the mediums of technology to bring people together because people buy from people they trust. That's the old cell's motto. It's been around forever. Yeah. It's just how we build that trust today is through the digital means, the technology. Yeah. Well, it's like I say, videos and the next best thing to be in there, right? Exactly. The AT&T line, when it was phone, was the next best thing to be in there no longer. It's a video. And you raise a point there about video because of all the modalities you can see, feel, you can get a sense of, you can actually build trust on video, which is impossible to do otherwise, right? To the degree you can with video. Yeah. Like I said, I mean, it's written word, audio, then video, and the video is like the highest premium. I mean, I've seen even like some mortgage originators with the class that we're working with, like it say, maybe banks or credit unions. As part of their follow up nurturing process, they shoot like with bomb on, they shoot these short little clips that are almost kind of like on the fly and then they just embed that or link that embed within an email and just bring that to a whole new level. Like, hey, I tried to call you, I got your voicemail. This is what I wanted to talk to you about. So it's almost like a video voicemail. Yeah. And the other thing I think about video as well is really, you said this earlier, I'm just looking at my notes down here. You said we are benchmarking against rocket mortgage as far as the level of, if you will, user experience. Yeah. Is that accurate? Yeah. And it's not just rocket mortgage, it's Amazon. It's any digital retailer, it's the public experience. The consumer, the customer, and there's really type of, I would call define as three different experiences. You have the customer experience, so that's one that's, you know, the Ozardi customer's virus, we're kind of nurturing or onboarding them in that process. Then we have the user experience, which is kind of the digital experience of, you know, the entire way, but then we have the experience, the LX, the lead experience. And these different types of experiences, those expectations are being set outside of a world that we can control. It was a Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, yeah, really big four right there. Right. And so let's face it, pretty much everybody on the planet integrates with those companies at one time or another and assuming it's a good experience, that is kind of the new benchmark in terms of what that user experience is like across, think about the success of like Amazon Prime and how easy it is to order. So that's why this whole digital drive towards, right, better user experience, et cetera. And think about what an experience is, an experience is nothing more than a process that has been well defined, first and foremost, but then refined and optimized over time. Yeah. That's why one of my recommendations is you go back and you review this process that you have at a minimum once a year, but I would say twice a year, and if you have the time every 90 days just to look for these areas of improvement to just kind of stare step this and take this up to the next level. What do you suggest people do in terms of serving their audience, getting real feedback and things like that? Critical. And that's the beauty of digital is we can make changes almost on the fly in real time. I wouldn't recommend that, particularly if you're just first getting started. But think about like net promoter score, that question. How likely are you to refer me, refer us to a friend or a family member based upon the experience that you've had? That's a vanity question. And because people will give you an 8, 9, 10 or lower depending on that, well, we can take that and apply that. But my recommendation is you take that to the next level, turn that insight into action. And what I mean by that is if they give you say a 9 or a 10, the next step in that journey is to actually ask them to refer someone that they might know. I mean, this would be huge for realtors, referring business into the mortgage originator. The second would be leave a rating, leave a review, maybe on Yelp or Google places. Facebook. Do you have any, I'm just curious because you obviously see the whole world of digital products and things like that. And I've been talking about online reviews a lot more and any recommendations in terms of that best practice or a software tool out there because there's a bunch of them. And again, this is just totally organic conversation. So I'm just curious what you see. I think the best practices reviews are really critical in the buying journey. Regardless of if someone actually is reading every single review ever written about you, Google yourself, Google your name, Google your company's name and see what reviews pop up when in a Google search and what are those stars looking like? Because we're today making inferences to a potential brand experience. Basically, is it three stars, is it four stars, is it five stars. And so I think the idea of asking for reviews has to be part of that kind of bottom of the funnel post conversion. So if we've onboarded them, then that gets into the advocacy piece of that. So people have heard that for quite a while now, right, online reviews. But I'm wondering how critical people need to take that because, you know, I post that question, well, here's the question, it's like, what's the brand perception of you, right? And nowadays, as you said, people are going to get online and look you up and all that stuff. And they're going to make some assumptions based on that quick glance of how many stars, how many reviews in total, right? So maybe just briefly talk about how, you know, I call that the social, the currency of trust online today. So elaborate a little bit more about why that's so important that you got to build your online presence of reviews. Well, I mean, it comes back to just the way that we shop and buy has changed. I mean, in the old days, Google actually did a study called the zero moment of truth about this a couple of years ago. And they looked at a lot of different verticals. They looked at automotive, they looked at health care, they looked at retail, they looked at financial services. And what they found is that in the old days pre-internet, there's really three points on this buying journey. There was some type of stimulus to where it was, maybe it was a postcard, maybe it was a newspaper ad that drove some type of action to make a purchase, and then once that purchase was done, say it was the mortgage it was funded, life goes on. That's it. Done. Well, today, what Google found is they have the stimulus, which is the same as before, but the way that we create that stimulus has changed. But before they get to that point of purchase, now we have what's called Google is coined the zero moment of truth. That's what we would consider the consideration stage of the buying journey. So you can take this idea of ratings, reviews, stars, and see how that applies is just to remove yourself out of the mortgage originator role, and just into the hearts, into the minds of the consumer, think about how you shop and buy, and maybe it's on Amazon, maybe it's on Open Table, you're looking for a restaurant, maybe it's TripAdvisor, I think reviews have kind of gotten a bad rap because there's been a lot of fake reviews, fake news, but it's still important. Take that to the next level, turn those reviews, turn those into an actual video story of how you've helped someone. That's where real power can be made, testimonials, video testimonials. So I mean, in terms of somebody listening right now who wants to start getting more online reviews, I think you would suggest that that needs to be integrated into your overall process. You have to ask for them, I literally just got off a call with the client, their financial institution in Florida, to where they're now working with, and they do mortgages. So they're working with their mortgage officers, they're working with their loan officers, and even their frontline staff encouraging people who have had a positive experience to go on to Yale, to go on to Facebook, to go into Google Places, and they're actually creating some type of inner competition to where those that get the most reviews in, say, a 30, 60, 90 day period are actually being incentivized, and it comes down to not just the most, but the most positive. Now, they have some measures in places where they're not gamifying this and getting a lot of fake reviews. These have from a real person that they've actually been able to help. Right, right. Can you help for those that are listening or watching here kind of articulate any of those kind of milestones in the process that you've worked with your clients for best practices? You're talking about on the review side? No, sorry, switching gears back to kind of front end through the process, all that stuff. Okay, so milestones, Facebook add, some type of stimulus, Google add, referral from a third party, that then drives traffic, say, to a website landing page. Instead of just asking for the direct call to action to apply, we need some type of secondary or transitional call to action, because they might not be in that stage of applying. So if we offered something of value, maybe it's a home buying or mortgage buying guide, maybe it's a checklist, or just something to help get them prepared, where we're exchanging something of value for a name and an email address. That name and email address, then get put into our marking automation, our CRM system. We then have a workflow of emails that are ready to guide them or nurture them over a 36-day period. Based upon their digital behavior, their activity, we could score that with that CRM system. And so we know who the real hot prospects are, because there are really three different types of leads. A marketing qualified lead, a sales qualified prospect, and a sales qualified lead. I'm really most interested in the bottom, too. Let the marketing automation of the CRM system determine who those people are based upon their behavior. As we get closer towards purchase, now we can get involved, phone call conversation, help get them down to the point of conversion. Post conversion, now we need to have workflow set up. This is where you're at in the mortgage process, day one, day two, day 15, day 30. And once they close, the journey doesn't end there. That's where we have to come back, ask for the rating, ask for the review, ask for the referral. And do you generally find the adoption rate on this whole philosophy and process? You know, pretty, pretty, pretty accepting? If one approaches it with an open mind, bulldog new tricks thing, it is. And I think what it boils down to is setting proper expectations. This is a journey, this is a marathon, this is not a sprint. And so if you can get wins every step of the way, and to measure your progress by looking at where you've come from, not where you're going. Because if you look at where you're going and your bench might say against rocket mortgage, you're always going to feel overwhelmed, you're always going to feel frustrated, you're always going to feel defeated. And so if we measure our progress by looking behind at where we've come, those little wins add up over time. So I like to tell clients, this is a marathon, don't wear yourself out, set proper expectations like been running a marathon, and just get wins every step of the way. You know, it's funny, every time we reference rocket mortgage, all I can hear in the back of my head is those loan officers who would say, wow, the experience sucks overall. And that is really just one of the greatest marketing campaigns in the history of the world. But what they did is they addressed a pain point for consumers. And for the promise of the fulfillment on that, we know it's not reality, but perception is reality. So if they're creating that reality for people, then we have to play within those confines. Yeah, yeah. I wish I could remember. Everybody the other day was sharing the stats with me about the purchase percentage rate of rocket loans, moving from refighted purchase, and what percentage of their businesses now purchase. I don't think it's even rocket though. I think we also have to kind of keep in mind to say like, like so far, right, for millennials. And what some of these more digital oriented companies are doing and how they're really changing the game. Yeah. And I don't look at it as a threat. I just look at that as an opportunity for us to up our game from where we've been because what got us to the point to where we're at today may or may not get us to where we want to go tomorrow. What do you mean? Oh, in terms of our success level as an originator? Exactly. Yeah. Like what got us to where we're at today may or may not get us to where we want to go tomorrow within our own personal success. Yeah. Well, it's like you and I talked about the other day, you know, the rising tide lifts all boats, right? And now the tide's going out and some people are going to be stuck naked. Yeah. There's a there's a phenomenon called digital Darwinism. Maybe you've heard of it. And basically what it is, it's where society and technology evolve faster than an organization or even a person can adapt. And we're I think we're moving into the fourth industrial revolution. And so just like any big change of transformation, it can really, there's three fears that we have to overcome and that's fear of the unknown because we, where we're going, it seems kind of scary, particularly one who has built their career around the legacy process, it's fear of change and then it's fear of failure. And when I talk about fear of failure, what if we don't do anything? What happens? Hmm, a couple of thoughts. What about that loan officer who's thinking like, you know what, only got about five years left. I'm just hanging on, man. I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing. Oh my gosh. It's not only that. I'm seeing that at the, the exact level of you in financial institutions, I feel that pain. Yeah. And I'm really a very empathetic to, to that. And it's, try. We don't know what's, what's the worst that could happen? I mean, I love this exercise. It's like, get a sheet of paper, say, put a, put a column right down the middle and on one side, what's the worst that could happen if you at least experiment and try with this? You get all those fears out on paper on the other side of the paper. What's the best that can happen? And try to visually see where those fears are rooted in. And are there more opportunities that you've identified with taking an approach like this? And then that might help just them come to their own answer of what, what path they should take forward. Yeah. That's, that's actually good. That's good exercise. Yeah. One would think that the, the more compelling answers would be on the plus side of taking some action. And I guess what that said, maybe the one of the last thoughts I have is, how do you respond to the, you know, the question that gets tossed around whether it's real estate or mortgage is technology going to have this place, the real estate agent, the mortgage loan originator? You know, we're seeing this massive rise of things like AI, right? And that could potentially disrupt that mortgage originator, that real estate agent. My thinking is, is yes, we're going to lose thousands of jobs over the next five, ten, fifteen years. That's the fear that you always hear in the news, right? What no one ever talks about is what are the opportunities that are going to be created from this displacement of jobs and because of technology, because of things like AI. So I'm not going to say their job is going to be displaced, but maybe their job or maybe the opportunities that they have, we can't even imagine what those look like today. Yeah. That's what's important to be aware of. We like to think we can. And often the answer to that is, well, you know, if, you know, the loan officer role will be perhaps further, you know, mitigated or lessened and people will be more kind of salary driven than, you know, compensation based on volume and production and that may come as I mean, who knows, right? Yeah, exactly. I still think though that we will have a loan officer mortgage originator or even a real estate agent. I think we will have those roles, but the processes that are on the back end of, say, fulfillment, for example, those might be continued to be streamlined and simplified where you might not need the day to day that we are doing right now, but people still look to people for help, for hope and for guidance. And even in digital, it all has to come back to humanity. I'm seeing research today, all of these neo banks, all of these digital banks are actually trying to get people in touch with the human being. So there's this little bit of a paradigm shift of, oh, it was all digital. And I was kind of making this prediction five years ago, no, we need to use digitally get people in touch with people. So I think we'll still have mortgage originators and loan officers and real estate agents. It's just the capacity and the way that they operate might look a little bit different than it is today. Yeah. And I guess, you know, to the point about the Millennial discussion is, you know, they're one that's a classic example of, you know, being more technology centric and they want, they still want that human being involvement, but only on their terms and when they're ready to in that process. Exactly. And what has happened, go back to the buying journey and where is this consideration? Maybe 80% of that was done digitally. When they're at the point where they feel like they need to reach out, that's where that humanity, that's where that mortgage originator, that's where that loan officer comes back and play is to help get them the last, say, 20 yards of the field, which goes to the other point, of course, about why it's important to, as a modern mortgage originator, to have a content strategy for online because we know that's how they're going to be engaging on that buyer journey and how they're evaluating us is by, you know, are we, are we, like you said earlier, the other day, you're like, stop selling and start helping. Help first. Sell second. Yeah, it should be just a natural outcome, right? You should be attracted to want to work with you because you've been educated me so much. That's exactly right. And that is the new world of selling that we're really talking about here. It really is. And we kind of lost to antidotes is one of my very first jobs was working at Old Navy. This was back in the late 90s and Old Navy had just come to Houston. I was hired on the second round of hires and went through sales training with them. And what I learned back in the late 90s still stands today. They said when someone walks through that door, you go up, you greet them, you tell them hello, and then you offer to guide them around the store and literally stand by them as they shop. And I think the same is true today, even digitally, and that's where we have to take a proactive stance in these people's lives and their journeys versus being reactionary. And so it is that content. It is that help first sell second. And when we make that our mantra, I think that is where the biggest opportunities for growth can be gained over the next five, 10, 10 years or so. That's funny. The consumer has wanted to be in control for a long time. Now, they've been equipped to do so with technology and so forth. That's really, you know, it's funny, that retail example, you made me think of the old adage of, you know, can I help you know, just browsing, right? And that's what people are doing online and they're browsing and I'm going to buy it home. They're going to then decide to engage with you and they're ready. That's cool. Good stuff. All right. So how can people reach out to you for more info? Where should they go to learn more about digital growth institute? digitalgrowth.com or just Google me, James Robert Lay and connect with me on LinkedIn or Twitter. Yeah. You got a lot of good info on your website and stuff. So I'll put the links in the show notes, obviously, and people can dive in there and hopefully there's some folks who want to carry on the conversation and, you know, perhaps pair up and do some work together. You're doing good work out there, man, for sure. Great. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for letting me just kind of share and help your audience out. That's what I love to do. That's what it's all about, man. Bringing truth and mortgage marketing. So if you're listeners, thanks for tuning in once again, and I appreciate you leaving a review and we'll see you on the next one, bye for now. Thanks for listening to Mortgage Marketing Radio. One more truth in mortgage marketing, get more free training and resources at mortgagemarketinginstitute.com. Hey, guys, what's up real quick? You've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before and I just want to quickly remind you of that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased loans. You need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase business for you. Well, good news. Our mortgage marketing pro membership helps loan officers like you close more loans without the hassle of chasing agents or cold calling. 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You can check out more at mortgagemarketing.pro, see more of the success stories there. And if you feel compelled to do so, book a call, we'll have a chat. We'll see if it's a fit. Don't miss out on this opportunity to take your mortgage business to the next level right now. Head over to mortgagemarketing.pro.