Ep #8: Tom Ward on Being a NexGen Mortgage Originator

In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with real estate agents is essential for success. However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge. With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections. Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read. This has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals. And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business. To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy of the case study today. You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too. Don't miss out. Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio. Brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute. Your number one source for truth in Mortgage Marketing. Hello, everybody. It's Jeff. It's him for welcome to another session of Mortgage Marketing Radio. I'm glad you're here. Once again, we're bringing it for you today. My special guest, I'm very honored to have, is Tom Ward, a quick bio about Tom. He's been in the mortgage and real estate industry for probably longer than most of us listening to this right now, upwards of 30 years, both as a real estate broker owner, CEO and founder of Majestic Consulting. He's spoken with and consulted and trained thousands of mortgage loan officers, companies across the country. He's, of course, now the CEO of Path to Buy, which is a very cool new platform that speaks directly to the changes we're seeing in the market with first time home buyers, boomer ring buyers, and how we as loan officers need to position ourselves as educators by providing value-added content and resources, and Tom's really doing a lot of really cool stuff with Path to Buy. He's got something that you're going to be excited to hear about called a seven minute webinar for first time home buyers, so I'm really excited to bring Tom on today, and Tom, thanks for making time. Welcome. Well, thanks, Jeff. A lot of pressure on that. Yes, sure. No pressure here, man. We're just here to share. I don't like to go too long on the bios because it's usually better for you to tell your story, so maybe for the listeners who maybe aren't familiar with you if you want to give the quick rundown on your background and what's kind of brought you to Path to Buy today. Yeah, it's interesting. I started out selling real estate when Prime was at 21%, so it was kind of wild. I managed a company of 10 salespeople for a guy, it was essentially 21 franchise, that during that market we sold the house a day for 180 straight days with just 10 sales people. So I've seen the tough times with regards to that whole economy then, you talk about rates being a 21%, it was bizarre with what was going on there. Then I evolved and bought one of his franchises, then I wound up opening two others, three central 21 franchises, and then started the mortgage company and never took a loan application before, so people looked at me like I was an idiot, but bottom line is I was just getting a horse service and friend of mine was running a household wholesale at the time in Chicago land and said you could fog a mirror and have $25,000 in that worth and get a mortgage license. So I did and had an adjusted mortgage for 19 years and then kind of saw the handwriting on the wall. I made a decision to merge that with Cherry Creek mortgage at a Denver in 2006 and everybody looks at me and they say, well, you know, while you're a genius to make it that period of time. One time I was running Tim Brahim and I were close. We did a lot of stuff and when he first started a loan toolbox and some of the things were going on, but I was a teacher or heart always had been and I had a program called One Transaction Thinking, which is, you know, understanding a P&L at a loan level basis and that became, you know, pretty popular with what was there. But you know, then I kind of turned and I saw, you know, my concern was that I saw the first time home bar struggling after a mortgage meltdown is like, you know, they were on the sidelines and interest rates were still at all time lows and need 3.5% down payment and, you know, house prices were between 10 and 50% the nowhere they're hating and it's like couldn't figure out why they weren't standing in line to buy houses and obviously there was that fear that was there. So, you know, during that period of time, I wrote a book at the tail end of Majestic Mortgage called The Empathy Effect and that's where I lived my whole life and premise on is understanding things from the other side, right? So if I can put myself in the first time home bar shoes, I can really understand how to address them and if I'm going to create a product or a solution for what's there, I understand it from their perspective, right? So I interviewed 318 renters and basically found out that there was a huge appetite still to buy a house but they weren't buying a house and, you know, that was the birth of Path to Buy, you know, a little or 5 years ago. So it's pretty crazy with what's there. I mean, the whole thing is evolved, you know, it's pretty cool to be able to see the evolution of it because, as I said in the beginning, Path to Buy was my idea, you know, what it's become today is a tribute to the membership, but they told me how to make it better. You know, I listened and put my ego off to the side and then my team implemented and, you know, pretty much what's come today is, you know, it's for that. So it's interesting to see what you're doing. I mean, the whole training component, you know, so we got a training program to support it and everything else which we'll get it to later on. Right. Yeah, so you mentioned something there that I wanted to pause on for a second. You interviewed, how many renters was it? 318 renters. It was just somebody says, well, you come up with that number, it was like, you know, my team and I just, you know, I needed to understand, you know, what are they going through? Why weren't they buying a house and pristine conditions and they all said uncertainty? And there happened to be what we call seven and a half obstacles that held them back from home ownership, job security, down payment, credit scores, DTI, there was a fifth one that was comfort zone according to DPI, they put a title set of guidelines in and then misinformation is the number one category. You know, because the consumer goes to the internet, this particular consumer, this millennial, goes to the internet to look for information and lo and behold, there's bad information out there and they're getting misinformed thinking they'd have 20% down on the 780 credits, go to buy a house today and they all hear it. It's crazy, crazy numbers. So seventh was mobility and liquidity. We knew the days are gone that you could buy a house close on at six months later. So it cover all the closing costs and make a profit. And then seven and a half in the beginning of time, believe it or not, was waiting for the bottom. There were people who were still thinking, especially in Las Vegas, Phoenix, parts of Florida, parts of California, they were thinking it was going to drop a little more. So they stayed on the sidelines for that. That's seven and a half category. I'm sure we just, we do the poll every time we talk to our members is it's waiting for inventory. Uh-huh. The inventory market today is bizarre with what's happening with lack of inventory and what's going on and interesting to see, you know, where that's at. But so there's a lot of a lot of things going on there and everything you just said there. And it's insightful. It's an opportunity. It's kind of, I see it as a call to arms for loan officers as well. And that's some great insights, by the way, with those interviews of why you discovered why these, you know, folks were reluctant to re-enter the market. And you make a great point. And you and I before we're doing this recording, we talked about the Fannie Mae study that came out and talked about the, the point you alluded to, which was the perception out there that most consumers are still misled. It's a matter of fact, just a quick quote from that. The study cited that only 23% involved in that survey were aware of the 3% and 5% down payment programs. But here's the last point that's, I think, relevant to all us mortgage professionals is the study cited lenders as the most influential source of information for getting mortgage advice followed by family and friends. So what that tells us, and this speaks right to what you're doing with Path to Buy, which is probably a good transition, is as you said, there's misinformation in the market. There's lots of noise. There's, you know, these, these sites that put up half truths and, you know, really don't adjust what they're, the stories are for that larger set of the market, the boomerang buyers, first time home buyers, people like that. So it really comes back to education and us as a loan officer, positioning ourselves as a place to come and get quality, authentic truth about, right, the mortgage process today. And that is, if I can be assumptive. I mean, that's what I see you guys trying to do with Path to Buy is equip mortgage professionals with platforms and tools and resources to become that, what I call that lighthouse, right, in the industry. So maybe elaborate about how you guys are doing that. Yeah, it's interesting because in the beginning of time, we started with the training program, right, to be able to help train loan officers on understanding this buyer and what to do when everything else. And we thought that there would be a pretty much of a gravitational pull to create, you know, so per se product videos, educational stuff, things like that nature and lo and behold, what we found was nobody was doing it. So it's almost like we had to do it for them. So the interesting thing about that, and I think the loan officer today, Jeff, if you look at this and say to yourself, if I was a loan officer starting out in business today, I think the days are gone that you become the guy or the girl that's going to prequel or pre-approved the home buyer. The struggle today is that, especially with rocket mortgage, is that people are just thinking it's just that easy to, and we know it's not that easy to just get on your iPhone and get approved, right? So the illusion that's being created by the folks at Quicken is the fact that says, hey, we got this right in front of us and we don't have to worry about it. And I think the struggle that loan officers have today is if they're in the mode of, I'll do your prequels for you because there's really no unique selling propositions out there today. You used to use product to be the differentiator. I have a pay-option arm, I can wave us, grows for free, 108 day lock program, whatever it would be. And today, when you go out and make a sales call, you struggle with that. So I think the big shift here has to become a loan officer has to view themselves as an educator, especially. And then the other thing that you have to be able to be careful of, which is what the whole idea behind the landing pages and the suite of videos that we created, that we licensed to loan officers, is the fact that says, you've got to do it in the format they wanted in. So you can't just long copy forms or things of that nature or white papers. I mean, these guys are flying 10,000 miles an hour and they're flying by the seat of their pants. So it's like, they've got two minutes to watch a video. So basically going down that road and you and I are both huge fans of Dave Ramsey and the heart of a teacher, I still remember that quote, that you got to be able to be in a situation like that, because I think that you're not going to see that customer today. The customer walks in, especially on the misinformation side, they walk into a Realtors Open House. In their minds, they think they've got to have 20% down. The teacher says, how you doing? Take a look at the house. Your first time homebarrow, yes, I am. We're just looking because we're about a year out. They don't tell them why. Talk to Jeff. He's my great L.O. Now, we're literally for that and lo and behold, the reason for that is because he's thinking he's got 20, he needs 20% down, he's only got 10% down. If you position yourself as an educator, you get access to that client. Here's a number that'll blow you away. It's held true for five years, 22% of the time. One of our members who became certified pathobipartner, meets with a customer. They had the ability to buy. They just didn't know it. More than one out of five people have the ability to buy right now, but they just don't know it. The problem is, how do you get the loan officer? It's like e-harmony. How do I get the loan officer in front of that customer and we do that through education? That's a great point. How do we get the loan officer in front of that customer knowing that the Realtor is still in front of that customer and for the foreseeable future is going to be the entry point for that conversation by and large. We know the Realtor ideally, we want to get that referral, but to your point, oftentimes, the potential buyer talks them out of it already because of some perception factors around qualifying and the Realtor may or may not be skilled at still converting that to get the loan officer to talk with them. Where do you guys come in? How do you help fill in that gap? I think that this is obviously we teach it and we use it, it's our product and everything, but if somebody just said to me, I'm a brand new loan officer, Tom, what would you suggest? I think there's so many loan officers, especially with CFPB coming down on the MSAs and all that other stuff that's out there. I think that days are gone. You could just go run a desk and just hand people business or hope that they hand you business. The conversions on that are even lower than what people originally anticipated. The struggle is I think most loan officers go in and we got a visual of it, just begging for business, right? I'm a great person. This is what I do, I'm on 24-7, call me any time, that type of thing and the struggle with that becomes, if you're going in looking for deals, the mindset that I've always said, anybody who has ever worked for Majestic Mortgage is a loan officer, he's telling you what you're mindset when you're going to talk on a real estate agent and bottom line they've been doing this for a while and it just comes down to where they're going to help them sell more homes. Interesting statistic from some guys that I've been following that are realtor, I can't the name escapes me right now, but in the realtor arena doing high-end websites for real estate agents, there was a one-to-one ratio for leads to sales in 2011 for real estate agents. Three years later in 2014, that became an eight-to-one ratio. There was only four million sales in 2011. That number jumped a little bit at one of the five million, but there was 40 million leads that came in to generate five million sales, so it was an eight-to-one ratio. With Edvin of Zillow and realtor.com and everything else, the realtors have got a boatload of people coming through, knocking on the door, kicking the tires, and what we teach is we teach the loan officers, we call it the shoe box full of maybes. After the maybes, because if you can help people make that decision and guide them to the finish line on behalf of the real estate agent, and then basically walk that client right back to the real estate agent, you're seeing, especially today, because the frustration level that I see, especially in the first time homebuyer arena, with people, we hear the story every day, where they're just frustrated, they want to look at 10 houses, they made 10 offers, didn't get any of them, they go back to the sidelines, stay in the game with those folks. Eventually, tomorrow becomes today, the inventory situation will write itself, because you'll have more houses come in the market, appreciation will do that, and we're starting to see appreciation in most markets. Teaching a loan officer, and I'm not talking Jeff, you and I both been around the block enough to know, we know the guys and girls that are out there with some real bad training material. It's like, you know, just stop at the real estate office and bring red bull and doughnuts. That stuff doesn't work, I mean, even calling and listing agents, and it's better than doing nothing, but at the end of the day, you need to know exactly what to say, and that's always been my philosophy, that's why Tim Breen and I got along so well, is that, you know, it's exactly what to say, it's like, what do I say, what do I do, and how do I do it, lickety split? So again, we use, you know, video format for that to be able to even train to be able to call on a real estate agent, so it's interesting to be able to see where it evolves. I think the struggle, and I'm not sure this would change, over time, probably in the last 10 years, let's face it, with rates from 7 to 6, 6 to 5, and 5 to 4, and then maybe 4 to 3, and some cash out along the way, and refinance rate and term, and consolidate the first and the second, I mean, let's face it, the loan officer really hasn't had the prospect in 10 years. Right, right. So the guys who were really good at this, used their database, they got the people out, did some cash outs, did some rate and terms, moved them up, bought a second home, did all the other stuff, and the struggle today is that, you know, the business model has to match the market, not the other way around, so the first time home buyer, I mean, when I asked, well, enough to say, how many of your people in your database does, oh, I got 2200, it's like, well, how many of those are renters? And it's like a deer in the headlights, it's like, well, four, you know, it's, well, like, well, why do I need renters? Well, yeah, because that's what's buying in the marketplace, right? So it's like, you know, novel concept, I mean, one of two things will happen. I think we've seen cash outs go by the wayside, and I think on the rate and term rate, I've said it for years, one of two things are going to happen, either you're going to refinance the whole world at 3.5% or whatever it is, or rates are going to go up, it doesn't make any sense for the customer to be able to refinance, so your own success will cause your own demise. If you're really good at what you do, take your whole database, get them set at 3.5 now, what? So now eventually you're going to have to go on prospects, but changing, I think that's a big thing. I think the, when I talk to branch managers, it's a struggle, you know, sometimes because it's like, you know, they haven't prospected in a long time, right? And they're off the street. So what do they say? It's like, go call on some real estate agents. Okay, boss. What do I say? It's like, just drop off the rate sheet and tell them how good you are and tell them that, you know, this and that is like the, and why don't the loan officers go do that is because they look at it and say, well, that's a bunch of crap. I can't do that. I'm not telling the truth. So, you know, what can I do to help the real estate community? And that's what's, you know, that's really what it's just, it sounds simple. I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty difficult to be able to make sure that you go on and do that and call reluctance. I had a guy, we just had a, you know, our membership has a mastermind call monthly. And I just had a guy that was able to get in front of and now has really taken it to the next level. The number one real estate agent in Georgia, number one remax agent, Georgia, and how would they do it? I'm going to use our program, which was truly unique selling proposition, going in, looking for, you know, what can I do to help you move them? Maybe he's low and behold it found out that, you know, he's really good at what he does. The incumbent isn't really that good. I was going to fire him anyway and, you know, all kinds of other stuff that went along with that. So, I mean, it's pretty interesting to be able to see the night. Again, I try to keep a pulse on, you know, what's happening? I've talked to a few hundred real estate agents in the past, you know, probably six or seven months. I mean, I've talked to, obviously, a bunch of loan officers and branch managers and things like that, and that you're again, I don't know any other way to do it other than say, tell me what your pain is. What are you experiencing? And I mean, we hear it all the time when people say, well, how can we don't go prospect is like, well, you know, a number one need to because if you're doing, if you're making, you know, it doesn't take you much to do. If you're doing $2 million a month and you're making a hundred basis, 20,000, how much more money do you need? You know, to be able to do that. So, yeah. And that's, you know, there's obviously a different segments of the market out there of those, the folks that are, you know, happy with where they're at in terms of business-wise. And then there's the ones who want to grow or build more sustainability long term, and I think that's who, you know, you and I both try to speak to. And so, obviously, you pointed out that, you know, people haven't had to prospect for quite some time. And that's been, I guess, a nice luxury, right? They've been predicting the, you know, the rise of rates for quite an extended period of time now. But it's not just just that that's changing the market. It's also the influx of the millennials that are coming in and, you know, a large, considering how big that population is, right? That's a lot of people that are looking to be home buyers, and there's tons of info out there, you know, on that. Right. So, you're facing the same challenge you talked about earlier, which is misperception in the market about what it takes to get into a house and buy a house. So, what have you seen, what does the, you know, you talk about, it's called the market mismatch, right? And you've referred to that about because the loan officers are stemmed mostly, refies and all that. But what's the first time home buyers, or even the boomerang buyers, right? What are they looking for today? What do we as loan officers need to provide to, you know, position ourselves to win that business against the quick and loans, if you will? Yeah, I think that, you know, we use an acronym called Travel, which, you know, the T stands for Trust, the R stands for Research, you know, the A stands, they've got some form of ADD, but not clinically, you know, the V stands for Video, the E stands for Education, and then the L stands for Long-Term Thinking. So, to really understand what those people are, but I think we've all taken, I mean, most of us who have been in the business a while and kind of whether the storm had been sales people all over our life, we all taken a sales class, right? In the sales class, they always tell you the first thing you do in selling anything, you got to build trust with the client, right? So, the struggle that you have, it's interesting when I speak live, and I've got a table, and I've got a baby boomer sitting right there, and a millennial sitting right there, it's the huge dichotomy between the two of those, you know, I asked the baby boomerang, he said, tell me how you grew up your life, he said, why didn't you lock me in lock our doors? I had the keys in the car, nobody would steal it. You know, that type of thing and everything else, and I asked the millennial, I said, you think exactly the same way, and they blurt out, I don't trust anybody, because they've grown up their whole life with identity theft, and 9-11, and ISIS, and roofies, and I mean, everything else under the sun, so these people start out, and especially after mortgage meltdown, they start out skeptical. So, A101, you've got to be able to build trust with that client, if you don't build trust with that client, and I think it's a skill, Jeff, that has been somewhat rusty, in the fact, if I've done the same client, I've got him from 7 to 6 and 6 to 5, and did some cash out on all the other things, if I've done six mortgages for the guy over the last 10 years, or five years, or whatever it is, ultimately, I don't need to build trust with that client, as long as I don't screw up the deal, right, so the first thing I do is I wind up, I do the first loan, and then I make the, he's happy, the second loan, the third loan, but I don't have to reestablish trust with him every time, so it's a lost skill that either I had, or I never learned, because I got into the business at the point in time, so I think it's important we come back to front and center, this is the first thing we have to be able to do, especially with this millennial customer, is build trust. You talked about the boomerang buyer, the other struggle, these guys have actually lived, the horror story of, they have the scars still, oh my gosh, we're doing a, in the beginning you talked about the seven minute webinar, and I think that that's what, our membership gets a seven minute first time home buyer webinar that's plugged on their page, it's gotten rave reviews, I've been doing a lot of stuff over the years, but it's interesting, because the guys who have followed me a long time, you know, guys with you 15, 16 years, things of that nature of satan, that's the most succinct type way to be able to do it, it started out, it had to be tight, I believe the magic number from the research that I did was seven minutes, now people look at that and they say, well, you know, what happens, you know, how can you cover all that in seven minutes, I mean, just listen to it, because it blows your mind, you know, with what's there, but I think the people have an opportunity, you know, what are they thinking, I did, after those 318 runners, I did three focus groups across the country, and I said, what are your, what are your concerns with home ownership? And there was two things that they said, they said they didn't think houses were ever going to go up like they used to, and the second part was they thought the tax benefits were going to be able to go away. So when you look at those two things, if that's what their concerns are, I mean, we revamped our whole video suite that we publish on those, on their landing pages, and basically say, what if your house never goes up in value, you should just still buy a house. And then we just do a side by side comparison of a, you know, what do you owe at the end of a 30 year fixed, nothing, and what do you have it, you know, how much equity do you have if you're paid 200, you have 200 inequity, or what do you have if you rented, you have nothing, right? So I mean, it's just logically not telling them what to do, not selling them what to do, but just being able to show them a side by side comparison. And the videos we're talking about here, Jeff, I think that's where most people miss it. It's not the video that's in front of the webcam that you got to interview out, and, you know, you got to edit it, and you got to go through those, so it's voice over PowerPoint, because I think it's much easier to show voice over PowerPoint, especially when you're using examples. Oh, yeah, on with that, because I think the customer really looks at it, and I think you can do it tighter, because that's where it comes down to making sure that you're, you know, tight on time, because that's what they're looking for. So, so take me through the process, then, on your website, Path to Buy, which is the number two, Path to Buy. And so if I want to join as a loan officer, I mean, what's what's involved? What do I get? I mean, I'm on here looking at all these really cool videos. So go ahead. Yeah, there's two parts that that's a customary facing site that you're on now, which is Path to Buy. So ultimately, a customer will come through there and we're there to be able to help educate them. It's more of a dot org mindset. You know, it's what's there. Two parts of our program. Number one, I will tell you that the training component of this, it's a, we call it next gen originator dot com. There's eight training modules that are in there. And ultimately, in those eight training modules, we teach them how, you know, what the idiosyncrasies are, the millennials, we talk about, you know, ground floor, runway stuff, how to make the sales call. How do you use the path to buy landing page videos, seven minute webinar when you're approaching a real estate agent? We have a coaching session in between the next one, the next session. And then the fourth one becomes the insurance agent. We incorporate an insurance agent. I mean, think about the novel concept. You've got an insurance agent who has rental policies, right? They know the expiration date of when the guy's lease is going to be. Talk about valuable information, right? And they're struggling. I interviewed, I don't know how many, it was probably in the 60 or 70 range when I interviewed the insurance agents. And here's what I found. They make, they make about 10 dollars of policy on a rental policy. They make 10 times that commission on a homeowner's policy. Every one of the guys that I interviewed converted less than 20% of their existing runner policy database to a homeowner's policy. So they'll lose an 80% of their business. And they don't know what to say to the consumer. So I mean, there's not something to do on a rental policy. You can't call up and ask them if they did you get a new dresser last week. I mean, it's not, I mean, it's crazy as that sounds. It's not like, you know, you're going to do a checkup with them or anything like that. So I think it just comes down to you and I both know this from being in other circles that it's business 101. It's not the mortgage business. It's like saying, I need to build my database. So how am I going to do that? This guy's already done it. Can I cross market with him? Consumer Direct is a big buzz. The one session, the one session we have with Consumer Direct. How do you get in front of people that are unattached to a real estate agent? That's a huge value to be able to bring to that. But then you got to know it exactly what to say. And we added two modules recently, which is Facebook, the whole Facebook component and then specifically Facebook ads. And we actually demo, you know, one of our members will volunteer and we'll put, we use $35 as a charge on their credit card and basically show them how to build an ad. You know, this fork is that's where all these guys are at and the circles that are out there. So the training component is one side. And then, you know, I'll do is I'll give you a, I don't have a specific, everybody has their own landing page. So, you know, bottom line is that there's a, you know, a landing page is designed specifically for the first time homebar. Right? There's an actress that comes on that basically talks about the sub-menor webinar. We tell them about the video suite that's on the right hand side. You know, what if my house number goes up in value? What will my rent be in the future? You know, all the other things that are with it. But that's the problem. That's the, that's the stuff that they license from us. So this is essentially, I mean, I'll call it a widget for lack of better descriptions where they would, you know, have these various video topics featured on their website. Correct. No, total turnkey. They don't do nothing. They don't do anything. Right. I mean, it comes down to there. And I don't, I don't say my name. They don't know if it's my name or Jeff's at that point. I mean, I basically come on and basically talk about it. And that's what they're licensing from us because it's so hard today to get video content to deliver, you know, to them. And it's, it's a matter of being able to just sit back and show them, you know, for what's there. But again, it's educational mindset. Trust me, there's no magic pill here. There's not, you still have to have a skill set. You still have to, you know, you have to call people back, right? It's not a, this is no magic bullet by any source of imagination. But what this does is it warms up the client. It gets them to the point of being able to say, wow, I really like what this guy Jeff has got on his side. I think he's a good guy. I think it's, you know, it's some of the things that he represents. It's what you're representing yourself. And the quality is awesome. And it's a, I mean, we've gotten ray reviews on the quality. It's not like, you know, we're looking through a fish bowl and a webcam or something of that nature. It doesn't look like that is for us. Yeah, they're all professionally designed. And really what you're doing there is, like we talked about earlier, is you're really a pivoting or adjusting for the market of the moment, meaning this is how buyers are consuming content. This is how they're researching and finding mortgage and real estate professionals to do business with these days, right? And if you're not providing those means by which they're going to engage with you online, social media, et cetera, then you're just not part of the discussion. You don't even exist. You know, you're the secret. They're going to go elsewhere. They're just going to leave the leave your page and go elsewhere. They don't need to know about reverse mortgages, refinances. I think that's where everybody misses it. Content has to be specific to the group, right? There's a move up or move down homebar. Your content should change with that. We even found in the beginning, I only had three categories of purchases. I had the move up or move down homebar. I had the renter. And I had the investor and second homebar. The problem is the renter has two different mindsets. If I'm a renter who I owned a home before and a renter who's never owned a home before. So we've got to attack that at two different levels. There's a product that we've got that is in the queue. We just haven't had a chance to get to it. If we think the boomerang buyer is going to be the buyer of the future. So it's what we call path to rebuy. But that more than our won't be seven minutes. It'll probably be in the eight. It looks like we might be able to just be underneath nine. So being able to say it's in the eight minute. But we have to address the psychology behind how they left, you know, if you think of the trauma that everybody went through as far as they got a family and they're moving from a four bedroom house to a two bedroom apartment. And how they let their family down. I mean, there's some stuff that's out there that, you know, and the bottom line to that is becomes, you know, I've heard story that they don't want to give the SOBs any money like too big to fail. Right. And stuff like that. But at the end, at the end of 30 years, 30 years, yeah, you might have won that battle. But at the end of the day, you kind of penalize your family. So well, you can't control that, right? But what you can control is just to recognize where are the future buyers coming from. It's first time home buyers, it's boomerang buyers, right? You know, the like you said earlier about the folks that have refied and traded up. I mean, there's always going to be that segment of the market. But you know, the first time buyers and boomerangs are making up, I can't remember the exact stat, but it's well over 30% of the market. And we know that millennials in particular are motivated to buy, if I recall, about 30% of them want to plan to buy within the next five years. But there's the perception issues that they have that we've talked about that. So real quickly, tell me then, this stuff like the seven-minute webinar, the videos, the landing page, are these behind, you know, does somebody need to submit their email to begin to digest these? How do you usually set these up? Yeah, it's interesting. That's why when I told you in the beginning, the beginning was my idea when it's become today's tribute to the member. We started with something we used to, we called it an academy. We called it the Path of I Academy. And it would be the design of it, it's called a squeeze page in the internet marketing world where you just give them a little bit and try to squeeze them, their information out, you know, there's their name and their email address, right? Failed miserably. I mean, it was very disappointing to me because, and the struggle with that was that we didn't, we undercalled that the millennial was not apt to give up their name and their email address in exchange for that. So I went to the experts, I subscribed to some pretty high-powered guys and we've coined the phrase of a reverse landing page. We give them more information up front and then as we get them to the point of where it is, then that's where the whole seven-minute webinar comes over off to the side and says, hey, sign up for the seven-minute webinar and then we do ask them for their name and their email address. I think the biggest thing that we've done, I call it, you know, it's snopes.com is, right? I mean, as far as verifying, you know, or you see in political world, they talked about the verifiers or whatever they call those guys, the fact checkers, right? That are out there in the political world. And I think that what we try to position the loan officer is that they're snopes.com for the mortgage information, right? Get them off of, if I can get them off of everybody else's bogus site, the crap that's out there on YouTube, I mean, I'm old enough to remember that you used to have two sources before you could print anything, right? I mean, the old days of all the presidents' men, you know, in the Nixon era where the guys would have to verify before they could print anything. Well, now you put anything on the internet. The struggle with the internet is there's so much information on it and the other part of it is there's no purging of bad information. There's no, somebody is out there that says, there's an expert. So that's the confusion and we all know a confused mind does nothing. So next thing, you know, it's, it's interesting. I got to tell you a great story. There's a $40 million real estate agent. I won't say the market, a $40 million real estate agent. A good friend of mine's daughter is asking me for advice. And he's saying, I want to give my daughter some cash to buy a house, right? He says, how much is she going to need? And an 800,000 dollar purchase price because it's in a really high end market right there. So how much do I need? I said, you can get buy a 10% down, right? This $40 million real estate agent did not know that you could have 90% financing on an $800,000 house. So, but you know, here's the struggle. Nobody wants to challenge her. She's $40 million. She's the czar of real estate in the market, right? Who's going to challenge her, right? But at the end of the day, think about how much money is being left on the table. There is an expert in the market that's saying, oh, no, you got to have 20% down and all the sudden, you know, we bow down to her and she's a great real estate agent. I've talked to her. But the bottom line is she's got wrong information. So as she's conveying wrong information to the customer, you just struggle with that. So this is a top producer that's out there. So I think that as we all know, you and I both agree to this concept, you have to be learned in the marketplace. Somebody says, what would you do today? I just keep learning, just keep wanting to learn more. But you got to adapt to the situation. I'm trying to think it was it was a rich day at poor debt or something like that. Sometimes people make decisions on old information, right? So if you're making a decision on old information, that's just as bad as not having any information, right? So you just struggle with that whole thought process. I think that's what you got to be able to shift to. Somebody says to me, you know, what's the difference? And we've coined the phrase of a path of my partner, the real estate is engaged to it. And again, it's a matter of, does it work? Yeah, it works because I, you know, it's been crafted by what they need. You know, the real estate community to adapt to them to know they've got eight to one ratio on leads versus purchases, purchase sales, you got to help them with that. I mean, I've interviewed guys that get, I had a guy in Minnesota, I got 3,500, a real estate agent gets 3,500 first time homebuyer leads a week, a month, 3,500 from where? He's got a real elaborate site that's got all the down payment programs and everything else on it is bizarre. You know, if what's there, he says, Tom, my struggle is not getting leads. My struggles convert them. You know, so it just comes down to, you know, a loan officer, what advice would you give a loan officer is what I said to him. And basically, he said, Tom, just stay, if you can help me convert some of these, which is the direction we've been going for years, but it just reaffirms that, you know, throughout the process. And all markets are different. I think today we're starting to see, I think back 10 years ago, Jeff, and you'll get a test of this 10 years ago, we viewed the whole United States of America as a market. Today, it is far more regionalized than I ever has been before. Southern California versus Northern California, Texas versus Colorado versus Chicago versus Iowa. All these people have different idiosyncrasies. So you got to make sure that you understand, you know, where they're going. I applaud you for what you're doing as far as trying to keep the real, you know, all the people in the business cutting edge, because I think that's where that's your direction of what you're going. And there's, you know, kudos to you for spending your time and your energy and your dollars. It's meant to be able to help those guys, because I think that in the olden days, you know, when when Tim started loan toolbox, that was this whole genre. Yeah, that's, thank you for that, by the way. And it's funny, you made that reference to to loan toolbox, because in this kind of a theme we've been talking about is, yeah, loan toolbox was great. And it really provided education and, you know, kind of raised the professionalism, if you will, long before the NMLS came in and forced people to take tests and all that. So, you know, and Tim, of course, had this, this viewpoint of like your, you know, fiduciary responsibility. And that was all great. But I think, you know, what you had said earlier, what's happened is with the incredible boom in refies and the cheap money and, you know, everybody got into the business. Then we had the meltdown. And then there was a bit of the cleanup, but it's still, you know, easy money. It's kind of back in the market, right? And that's fueled refies and things like that. And I think what's happening is there's, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's like two camps, right? There's the guys and gals who's who weathered the storm, who stuck it out and who understand the fundamentals of the stuff we're talking about. And part of the challenge with them is they've gotten so busy because a lot of people left the market. So that business kind of flowed up to them. They haven't had time to prospect and work on building their business. And they know they need to. And then there's the flip side of the more newer people coming in in the last three years or so, where they're just, you know, I just hear a lot of words like, you know, they're struggling, right? It's like, I don't get much guidance. My manager tells me to go door knock or, you know, whatever the case is, make cold calls. And that's just very unproductive and frustrating. And you wind up burning out and wanting to quit. It's funny. You said that because the in the beginning, we thought that we would appeal to those to the rookies that are in the business or the guys have been business five years or six years of things of that nature. What really has happened to us, which is a soft place in my heart for it, I call them born again, loan office. I reenergize. They're completely reenergized. I'd probably tell you, there's a hundred stories of guys that have been in the business 30 years and have completely reenergized themselves because now they've got something to say. They can stand behind it. They don't have to be these people. And I'm not sure, at the end of the day, I'm not sure if they had it to do all over again, that anybody would change it, right? If you got the low hanging fruit in the refinance side, God bless America. Take it. But I think that's the struggle that people have. They just need to be able to look at this and say, here's what it is. I mean, first and foremost, first and foremost, this is a business, right? So let's not, it's not a hobby. It's a business. It's not even a sales job. It's a business. So when you look at this at the end of the day, what do you need in your business? Well, you need, you need to build your database, right? So what do you want to fill the database with? You need to fill the database with what's working in the market. So you need to be able to adapt to that at the end of the day. If you've got a business model that's archaic from 10 years ago, that you've got the biggest database on the face of you, I still remember talking to a guy at a New York City, who's back in the subprime days. And I said, and then we saw subprime just go, go south in a heartbeat, right? And he says, you know, I've got 1250 people in my database is a subprime guy. And I said, yeah, and how's that going to work out for you? Because you got 1250 people that there's no market, right? It's like, it's over. So you can't realize, you just don't realize, you know, what you don't have. And I think that's the big difference here, you know, with people that are out there. So I love the born again, by the way, born again. Oh my gosh, it's just like, and we get testimony elaptured. It's so cool to see the guys and the girls that are out there that are thinking it's over, right? It's like, oh, the business sucks. It doesn't matter. It's like, you know, and it's like, well, wait a minute. It doesn't have to be that way because they bring a huge amount of value. They, the interesting thing about it is people know what to do if I can get them in front of a customer. Yeah, right. They kill it. I mean, they've got that they've got that part wired struggle becomes how do you get them in there? And that's where it's a little bit of a leap of phase. It says, go do it this way, make this call, play this video. And the realtor's get it. How do I know the realtor's get it? Because I talked to them. It's been structured around that that says, how did you know that I got more leads coming through the door than I have sales? And how did you know I don't have much bandwidth? And the insurance agent telling us, well, how did you know I only made $10 a policy? And I'm not converting as many as I should. And they have, I call it fear of flow in the get go, right? Where these guys are scared to death because they're being commoditized, right? What value do they bring to their customers? They're looking for value add to bring to their customers. And that's the whole thought process, you know, with what's there? So it's it's interesting to be able to see. I just think it's a it's a state tune. You got to stay cutting edge. You got to stay. I mean, I really, I'm a little more paranoid. Probably than I should be as far as making sure that this is what's really happening to the marketplace. In that mastermind call, probably had 100 some people on there, whatever was. And it was like 90% of the people I said, and that's across the country from Idaho to Orlando, right? And I said, do you guys have an issue with inventory? And they said, everybody said, yes, it's like, you know, that's what's there. And I'm going to, I'll either write an article or do a video. And I'd be more than happy to your readership group or things of that nature, whatever I can do to help them get to the next level. I mean, I applaud guys like you that are doing what you're doing. But there is a there is a benefit. The advantages, you know, what are the advantages? I'm not sure what the title will be, but, you know, the benefits of lack of inventory. And there is some benefit to that. And the benefit of that is appreciation. And if you look at, if you look at OPEC and you look at, look at the beers, they don't put the whole supply to the market because if they do, the prices go down. Right. So they hold off on it. And that's what we're starting to see. We're starting to see natural appreciation. That's crazy appreciation like we saw 10 years ago. People are buying how, people are buying houses today for the right reason. It's first, it's a shelter. You know, and then it's an investment. Right. Back then people were stupid things. I mean, I still remember sitting in Las Vegas airport. And a guy was crying the blues. I was just sitting there and my flight was delayed. And I said, hey, you're in a home here. And he says, yeah, and he was a young guy. And I said, how's your market here? He says, it's in the tank. And I said, well, I said, man, when I heard, you know, I'm thinking to myself, I said, what do you mean, tell me about what do you do? It's in a tank. He says, yeah, last year we were only up 22%. I said, how do you believe that's in a tank? He says, well, the year before that, it was up 40. Oh my gosh. And then now you fly over and you see all those subdivisions that we're going to be built. And yeah, you know, so that's classic. Hey, real quick before we run out of time. So you've got a path to buy is for both loan officers and real estate agents, right? Correct. And insurance agents. So the whole concept of path to buy partners is the concept of we call it a power team of three. If I can figure out a way for those guys to, if the consumer buys everybody wins, yeah, insurance agent wins, the real estate agent wins, the loan officer wins. So we call that a power team. It's a triangle that we put together. So the realtors don't pay anything. There's an extra place for them to be able to come to if they wanted to. The loan officers are my business source. That's my business model. And the insurance agents don't pay anything for it. So ultimately, as you start to realize and you start to see it, you know, that's what our business model is set to. We do have some markets were closed. We have saturation levels. Again, this is probably my heart as a loan officer in an owner of a mortgage company that I don't want to have everybody in their brother, you know, have the program, right? And I'm not saying that arrogantly. I'm just saying that to the point where I want to make sure that it truly is unique. How many times have we seen a product that says, yeah, we've got an exclusive in the next thing. You know, 50 other people have got it. I mean, it's just like it doesn't work that way. So, I mean, we've got our own little formula that we use. There's plenty of, there's plenty of business out there. The only market that I really have closed is, you know, the upstate New York market, you know, that's a, I had a large group that is co-owned by a real estate company and a mortgage company that I've known for years that, you know, took that market down all by themselves. But again, I'd love for you to be investigate my product, you know, as far as what's there. I don't think it's anything that, you know, and again, whatever I can do to sell, you know, the whole thought process behind it. You know, you get an idea of what, you know, what's there. And you can also go to, you know, there's again, if you, let me give you my email address. If you've got a question, please just email me and whatever I can do to be able to guide you down that road. Pat, the buy will get you what you need. Pass number two, buy.com. Next-gen originator will get you what's there. I mean, our team is, is here readily available to be able to answer any questions. And any feedback you guys can give us. I mean, that's what we're here for. My email address is just Tom, T-O-M-At-P-A-T-H, the number two, buy B-U-Y, you know, .com. So I think it's pretty cool to see where the journey's going. The guys that are making it big time, I got a guy that's 34 years old out of a rapid city south Dakota, if you could believe this. Hot market. I closed 170 purchase loans last year. 170 in that market. And it's just he's such a, he's such a, he is so awesome because he was here and he was one of our original coaches, right? So this guy has got that market wired and it's a heavy bank market up there. You know, with what's there is, you know, some of those markets you get that's a mindset of a banks and credit unions and things of that nature. So he's such a good guy. But again, if there's something I, you know, that it's not for everybody, I can tell you that Jeff, you know, work is still a four-letter word, right? So, yeah, it's not like you just, you know, buy, yeah, subscribe to the website. Tim and I talked about that all the time when he had, you know, long tow boxes like you still got to put the work in, right? It's, you know, the treadmill just because it's in your room doesn't, doesn't mean that you don't just get to watch it go around, you actually have to get on it and, you know, an exercise, right? So I think that's a big part of it. So, yeah, send me an email. If I can help you, whatever guidance you can do, we got some markets that are, you know, that are somewhat, you know, obviously the markets in Chicago land, you know, it's where I'm from Colorado, which is where Cherry Creek's from, the Milwaukee market, you know, we're a little heavier there, Minnesota, that whole Midwest quarter, you know, it's up there. But, you know, just again, and I'd love to chat with you. I mean, I think it's what you're doing here as a matter of keeping everybody together, you know, trying to make sure that you position yourself with, you know, the experts that are out there and maybe we can, you know, jumpstart the whole training component here with people that, you know, needs to look at it. I think that you commented on the next gen originator mindset. That's what it is. It just comes down to you, you got to adapt to what the times are. And I think now is the time to be able to look at that and just be able to see what we do with it. Well, I think, you know, my kind of my tagline is, you know, truth and mortgage marketing and, you know, there's tools and resources that can help originators out there. And, you know, that's why I wanted to have you on because I've checked it out. And I think it's definitely solid and it helps people loan officers position themselves for the market of the moment, where they need to become an educator and, you know, automate some of that process with the tools kind of the, you know, the road map. You've got, that's why you call it path to buy, right? It's a path to take somebody on to get them educated and ready that helps position you as a thought leader to make that purchase transaction, whether that's tomorrow or that six months or a year down the road. The point is, you probably don't have a lot of relevant good content like you've developed over there path to buy. So that's why I'm encouraging everybody to check it out. Yeah. And it's, it's frustrating. I get to live by curiously through others now because I don't have a mortgage company, right? So somebody else's successor becomes, you know, me high five in them, you know, the virtual high five to be able to say, man, it was cool. You knocked out of the park. It's just so cool to be able to see, you know, where a lot of these folks are going. And, and the nice thing about it is, if you're new to this business, you can get to the front real quick because it's just, it's about leverage. You just got to use some leverage activities. And that's definitely one way to do that is, you know, get hooked up with you guys. Check it out, dig in, path to buy, P-A-T-H-2. The number two, that is B-U-Y.com. And check it out. Lots of great content on there. So, hey, I appreciate you making time. I know you're incredibly busy. And so it's been great to catch up with you again. And thanks for sharing with the members. And, you know, let's hope we can stay in touch. Yeah, perfect. And I'll make, I'll make it a point to do that, Jeff. Whatever I can do to help your group, I'm there for you. You bet. No, for those listening, thank you for tuning into another session of mortgage marketing radio. If you like what you hear, or some of the other podcasts, please make sure to leave your comments, hit the like button, subscribe on iTunes, and appreciate you listening. And remember, go out there and find truth and mortgage marketing. It's Jeff Zim for your host. We'll see you on the next one. Bye for now. Thanks for listening to mortgage marketing radio. One more truth in mortgage marketing. Get more free training and resources at mortgagemarketinginstitute.com. Hey guys, what's up real quick? You've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before. And I just want to quickly remind you of that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased loans. You need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase business for you. Well, good news. Our mortgage marketing pro membership helps loan officers like you close more loans without the hassle of chasing agents or cold calling. Done for you agent classes, expert training videos, a marketing automation platform that automates the entire process for you, everything you need to build your personal brand in your local market, attract and convert agents into referral partners. Plus done for you proven marketing materials and plug-and-play content to make promoting your class, getting agents butts and seats, partnering with affiliates, real easy. But that's not all. 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