How to Capture Your Share of Non-QM Loans

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Go check it out right now. Visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Hey listeners, what's up Jeff Zimper, your host for the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast. Thanks for tuning in. I appreciate you so much listening. Hey, question for you. Do you ever ask yourself, how can you stand out, how can you rise above the noise, how can you differentiate yourself amongst the sea of sameness with loan officers? Well on this episode, we're going to talk about how you can differentiate yourself with non-QM loans and we get started in just a moment. Hey, so welcome back and we are about to get into this week's episode. Before I do, of course, friendly reminder, make sure you check us out in the private Facebook group over at Facebook and you type in Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast. That's where you'll find our private group, Mortgage stuff going on over there, live streaming, Q&A, special guests, hot seats and things like that. So go check that out over there as well. And if you've got a pressing question, as some of you have presented me your questions thus far and I've been answering them, this is what you can do in the show notes here or wherever you're listening to this podcast, right, there's a little section down below the player button where you should see links to all the assets or resources we feature in the podcast. And one of those is a link to a website which is called Ask Me Anything and that's you just tap that link and then you'll be able to go tap your phone, leave me a voice question just like Grant did, Kevin did, Natalia did, Pablo did and others are doing right now because I want to answer your question, I want to feature your question on the air and I want to include you in a monthly drawing coming up soon where we're going to give away one lucky winner per month, a swag box, t-shirt, stickers, all kinds of cool stuff, private coaching call with me. So what's your question? What's your challenge? What's your frustration? What's the one question you've always wanted to ask about digital marketing going after realtors, diversifying yourself, being a successful mortgage originator, what is it? Or maybe it's the question about Beatles versus the Stones, I don't know, just trying to keep it light here. So you want to go to AskGFanything.com, check the link here in the show notes as well. Okay, so listen guys, I don't have to tell you that everything's shifted in the world, post COVID, there's a lot of things that are happening that are going to change up the requirements on us as mortgage professionals if we want to be seen different, right? If we want to not be stuck in the box of a commodity and have a price conversation versus advice conversation. And I used to say that the differentiators of price and programs really weren't that competitive, especially since everybody's settled on conventional, non-conventional, we got FHA, we got VA and those types of things and really what hasn't been much else other than that. But of course, now what's happening is the growth or resurgence of non-QM loans. When you talk about self-employed people, when you talk about people, high net worth people with complex financial structures, in corporations and things like that, that's why I'm really thrilled to bring to you my guest today. We're going to talk about non-QM loans, we're talking about John Dussman. John is down in San Diego, California with Axos Bank, he is the senior vice president and head of mortgage banking and we take you through what is this non-QM lending all about and how can it apply to you? What's cool is a few minutes into this episode, we get into some actual real loan scenarios where you're going to hear use cases of leveraging non-QM loans to be able to get deals done where a lot of other people probably couldn't get them done. So I think that'll be an interesting exercise for you to just listen through and then start to ask yourself, hey, does your company currently provide access to non-QM lending? Maybe you do in-house, maybe you have a correspondent already set up with Axos or someone else, maybe you're a broker and have a relationship or maybe you don't. If not, then go ahead and reach out to John and the team over there at Axos because they've got some incredible programs in place to help you succeed as a mortgage originator. The question you always want to be asking yourself is who do you serve and what problems do you solve? And today we're serving the non-QM community, typically self-employed investors, people like that. And the problem we're solving is how do we get them financing in a non-traditional way that still is cost-effective and reasonable for them? So without further ado, let's get into this week's show. John Dussman, welcome to the show. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. I'm a big fan of your show and honored to be here. It is always an honor to spend time with other folks in the industry because I think why we're doing this today is we need to bring this message of non-QM to our listeners into the marketplace and we're going to talk about this. So before we get into that, why don't for the listeners just a brief backgrounder on you, who you are, what do you do? Yeah. This is John Dussman. I'm the senior vice president, head of mortgage banking here for Axos Bank. I've been in the industry started as a loan originator myself back in 2004 and have been in various roles in origination and marketing, leading sales through this journey. And right now I'm really excited about what we have in non-QM and how it can really help loan originators do more in this market and grow and evolve. And so I'm really excited to share some of my thoughts. I've gotten a lot of great feedback and a lot of really good gifts and ideas from listening to this show. So I'm excited to get back a little bit today. Oh, thanks, man. As a matter of fact, I just remembered it. So you started in 2004. I was 2003. If I recall, didn't we both work for Countrywide for a minute? We did. We did, yeah. Yeah. That's right memories. For those listening, some people are like, what was Countrywide? Well, you missed the glory days. Yes, indeed. So you're in San Diego when I was in Orange County, so quite similar markets there in terms of competitiveness and loan size. What did we have, by the way, back then, I guess, how would you describe non-QM back then? What did we have? Well, there was a lot more of kind of the alt or lower documentation. And so that's one of the things that's important to point out in today's world is it's certainly not a repeat of the past. Back then, there were some different things that some would say and should have been there. And so in this world, it's a lot different. The credit qualities are a lot better. However, it's still a different way of underwriting and a different way of viewing the eligibility for the loan. And that's what I love the most about this. It's a puzzle. It's not just the, does it fit in a box or does it not fit in a box? It's a, you know, let's put this puzzle together. Let's solve a problem and figure out how we can best serve this client. That's what, that's the part I really love. Well, let's do this. I don't want to forget. We've got a whole different range of types of people that listen to this, experience people, but then new people as well. So for their benefit, if you wouldn't mind define non-QM, what we're talking about. Yeah, non-QM is basically a non-qualified mortgage. It is originated against, you know, within different standards and underwriting guidelines that, you know, private lenders or portfolio lenders can use to originate the loan. And in our case, we hold these loans on our ballot sheet at Axos. There are some investors that purchase non-QM loans and some different takeout options for those. But we actually hold these on our portfolio. We started in non-QM back in 2010. So shortly after the, you know, the big financial crisis and those times for those of you who were originating then, it was primarily, you know, can you do a Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac or FHA VA loan. Jumbo was really off the table. And so some of us started getting back into it. At that point, it was Bank of Internet or BFI Federal Bank had started their non-QM wholesale lending program. And it's been a very successful program, high quality, great results. And we're absolutely thrilled with it. So we've got 12 years of experience in this and the performances is great. And we're continuing to innovate and disrupt, as you say, in this business and keep getting better. Yeah. So that's a good transition. Let's talk about that disrupting. So here we are. We're coming out of one of, if not the greatest RE5 period we've had ever in the industry, if not in the last right decade or whatever, who's counting, but we know it was a great RE5 ride. And of course, now we're shifting back to a more purchased market. The other thing that's happening, and of course, now we're coming out of COVID as well. And just societally, what's happening is this, you know, I've heard referred to an outbar of the phrase, this gig economy, you know, at 10.99 consultants, independent contractors, you know, people, the less traditional sources of income. And that's really who QM ultimately is serving, or not QM is ultimately serving, right? Right. Exactly. So it's the makes sense loans where otherwise maybe it doesn't meet some of the criteria just by a little bit to fit in the box of a standard traditional underwrite. So yeah, a lot of self-employed borrowers can really benefit. Yeah. Can I clarify it as that? You just said non-standard underwrite. I mean, can you just say, okay, anything that's non-standard underwrite, like no do you know LP? Like that? Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to think about it. So it goes back to the manual underwrite days. So you don't have a DU pointing, you know, the roadmap for how to make the loan work. You have to really manual underwrite it and dig in and look at the details and go from there. There's no system or computer program is saying, get this, this and that. Okay. So besides self-employed, who else would this apply to? So there's a lot of investors, real estate investors that are benefiting and finding non-cum loans to be very popular right now. We've actually got a really strong program and others have started doing some programs that's called a DSCR loan. So ultimately what that is is debt service coverage ratio. And so as an investor buying another property or refinancing a investment property, the qualifications are based on the property and the cash flow of the property versus ultimately, you know, the underwriting of the income of the borrower. So it's great alternative to get a loan a little bit easier if you're a real estate investor. Without as much hassle, that's probably the best way to say it is it's a qualified property and you don't have to submit, you know, hundreds of pages of tax returns because you're complicated. Kind of like commercial. Right? Because commercial is written based on the performance of the property and everything. Yeah. It's a business purpose element to it for that regard. Another interesting one on non-cum is someone who let's say they have significant assets. So there's great ability to repay based on assets. So the stocks, it could be savings accounts could be even crypto in some cases where the assets can be used as basically the ability to repay on a depletion basis. So that's a big unique opportunity for folks who are looking to leverage and get into property. Wait a second. Come on, man. Are we getting there already? We're looking at crypto now. It's not a case by case basis, but there's some interesting stuff. Wow, that could be a whole different session of itself. Yeah, talking about disrupts, huh? Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. So the investor thing is very interesting because I do remember the days of doing some loans for investors. And yeah, it becomes challenging when you're an investor and you own 10 properties, right? And they're looking at the traditional version of that, you know, you being able to support that based on income and so on, et cetera, instead of the actual property itself. Right. Right. Okay. So what else? I want to make sure we cover like who is a, you know, you were put your loan officer had on. Let's do this. You got this non-QM loan, you know, forget about the FHA, the traditional quote, paper stuff. Does anybody say a paper anymore? I don't know. I still do. So I do. It might be an old school thing, but I do. But yeah. You know, we know those high quality borrowers and stuff. If you were a loan officer, how would you be looking to take, you know, this bucket, if you will, this tool chest of non-QM loans out into the market, what would you be doing to go find these loans? Yeah. Great question. So the things that come to mind for me are, you know, first and foremost, you mentioned the gig economy, the, you know, different types of qualifications. Now, finding those people, obviously, it's not, not necessarily easy. Obviously, word of mouth is great, referral partners is a great source for helping, you know, make sure that you're real to partners, your referral sources know that you've got a product that can help them close more loans and can help qualify more borrowers. The other side of it is thinking about, you know, housing prices have gone up tremendously. Obviously, conforming loan amounts have gone up as well. But there's a lot of areas that require financing above what the conforming limit is, you know, here in San Diego, a lot of Southern California, most California in general, you know, even though the conforming limit is high, a lot of borrowers are going into the jumbo space, jumbo prime jumbo, for example, can be very, very tedious. So it's great for, you know, potentially W2D, very, you know, down the middle wage earners, but outside of that, you know, you really have to go to the non-QM site. So I would think about it as an LO of how can I make sure I'm positioned in the right way for maybe some of the higher, higher wealth, higher income individuals that I might be missing out on right now. And whether that's through talking to your partners and determining, you know, buyers that they may have that we're trying to get a home and got a turn down. That's another way you can, you can come in and try to talk through non-QM, see if there's an option there and where your hero, your agent loves you at that point, or other sources where you can just get into those areas where there's higher, higher loan amounts, higher purchase prices, and more than that jumbo space, it doesn't fit the prime jumbo. Yeah, I'm looking at your document that you provided with some examples in here. And it's making me think, you know, back to this question that I got from somebody which was other than real estate agents, what niches would you go after? And my answer to him was, you know, self-employed, gig economy type stuff. And it made me think now when looking at some of these scenarios, is this a specialty you think that's worthy of, and it's going to sound like a softball question for the listeners. But I mean, you know, that you should, does it make sense to develop a brand and a marketing messaging and all that kind of stuff around this? Yes, I think it absolutely does. In a way, obviously, that you're not using the jargon, you know, non-QM, nobody wants to hear that. Yeah, what does that mean? Yeah, right. But it's more of the, you know, if there's a borrower who could not get the property for such and such reasons, but they otherwise have great quality, great credit quality, great income, but they're just a little unique, then that's a great way to market. So a lot of our account executives talk through when they're calling out to loan officers and originators, you know, talk, let's talk about the last turn down you had. How was that? What happened? What are the scenarios? It's a good way of thinking about it. And then just again, that whole higher end side of things and doing more with different solutions. So in some of our examples, maybe, maybe the loan won't work with certain elements, but the borrower, let's say, has another property that's paid off free and clear, potentially we could cross collateralize the other property, and then all of a sudden we have a deal. Makes sense. It's a great deal at that point. And then lastly, the other audience to think about beyond realtor partners is financial advisors. There's a great opportunity there. We also allow for pledge of equities. So advisors love that because there's not as much liquidation that could be required if someone decides they want to pledge some stock to lever up on the loan. That's a great way for the advisor to continue serving that relationship, while the buyers also satisfying their needs with their mortgage or buying a home. So I'm reading through some of these examples, and I don't know if you want to make this available to anybody, but okay, so we can put a PDF link or something into that PDF. I think what's very illustrative is, as I read through some of these examples, let me do a screen share so you and I are on the same page, is again, we're talking about disrupting personal brand and things like that, like I'm looking at what I was thinking of as a couple of different niches here, like you had already mentioned, one or two, which is the investor niche. So if I scroll back up to this one right here, which is the DC DSCR, what does that say? Right, debt service coverage ratio, so that's where qualifying them based on the property only, cash along the property. Yeah, so this is a 1.4 million loan amount, single family resident 52% LTV, four and three quarters and a 5.1 interest only arm with 100% cash out, explain that to me. So yep, basically we qualified based on the asset, cash on the asset, and then to lever up on the cash out was a cross collateralization loan. So basically our net LTV at the end was 55, but it allows for the higher leverage on the property to recapture for the cash they put into by the property. So made sense in that situation. You know what's interesting, too, is I realized I just completely put you on the spot, not even knowing. Oh, good. Oh, good. I know my loans. Fortunately. Right. All right. So let me scroll to the other thing that hit me, because again, I'm thinking about like, how do I stand out and rise above the noise? And I look at stuff like this right here. This is a residential property, right? Yep. Correct. Another purchase price, 12.6 on the loan, non-owner, non-owner,ock, 90% LTV, 55%, explain that to me. Do we got two LTV? Yeah, absolutely. So this is an example where we pledged securities. So this buyer used some stock that they had and pledged up. So our ultimately the amount that they came in for the purchase was 10% down. And in lieu of the additional loan amount that otherwise they'd be required to down payment, they'd otherwise be required to put down, they pledged their stock. So yeah. Tempted them down to get to the 90LTV, and then the equity portion that they pledged ultimately covers from the 90 down to the 55. So avoid a liquidation event of the stock, defer potential capital gains, and also get home. So it's a win-win. Is that a stock that was well-known and was kind of a sure bet? Yeah. Yeah. When we pledged, typically it's on the larger, pretty higher volume exchanged stocks. It's not a penny stock or anything like that, but it makes sense. Yeah. All right. Now here's another one. I'm going to full circle on this one. We're done looking at some of these examples. Newport Coast, which is Newport Beach, California, 16 mil purchase price, 12.8 loan amount owner, Ock, 3.2 million cash pledge. Was that a stock pledge as well? Yeah, it was a stock pledge as well, 12 month bank statement qualifying. Yeah. So this is where it's a self-employed example where they use their bank statements to show their qualifying income versus providing tax returns as a self-employed borrower. And so this particular borrower used a couple of flavors of the beauty of non-QM to help for qualifying is they wanted to pledge the assets to get a higher effective loan to value. And then two, submitted bank statements is an easier path of documentation to meet the underwriting requirements. Right. Right. What, anything to be aware of when you're doing a deal that's unique like this, it's manual underwriting. Are we talking about delayed turn times on approvals, et cetera? That's a great question. So it's a little bit slower than the, you know, you would think, I mean, the surgery is a little bit harder than fixing a toe. Yeah. And I see both sides as, you know, I'm involved in some agency work today too and that's an area where we've built our business on how fast can we get it, how automated can we get it and use as much, you know, digital underwriting as possible. And so you see that side where it's pretty quick. And then on the portfolio side, you know, it does take a little bit longer. But it's nothing to where it's, you know, not sitting and waiting around forever. We have to be competitive. And even in this market, you have to be able to move fast even on these big loans. So a 45 day closing is something absolutely within our means and something we can do. We can close fast around a purchase if we have to. If it's, you know, we've got to be, we've got to move quick to get this done. We're going to move mountains to underwrite and get that done. But it's not just the super high end properties like the examples, right? No, it's not. We, we end up getting, you know, some of those just based on, you know, where we are, where some of our partners are. But, you know, non-GM as a whole, our product set our loan amounts range from 510 is our minimum. And our, our max is 30 million, we can go higher by kind of exception basis. But it's not all just the, the big, big high end ones, it's, it can be more of a standardized type of, of loan amount. Well, it's interesting you said financial advisors because I'm thinking in those examples of this, you know, the high end ones, obviously, we're talking about playing at a different level. And when I think about when I see those examples, what runs through my head sometimes is what? This goes back to the original question, somebody asked me about differentiation or what other niches would you pursue. And another one I often bring up is the divorce niche. And I think, especially moving forward, we, you know, we talk about disruption, we talk about FinTech and all the stuff that's, all the noise that's happening over there, you know, with what's going to happen with blockchain or whatever, who knows. Yeah. But the point is it's like, how do you have job security, right? Solve problems. And I always, I always talk about being a specialist versus a generalist. And I, you know, I've alluded to this example of brain surgery, but seriously, I mean, when you get into compensation, right, and you think about consultants, doctors, attorneys that are working on high end cases, complex cases, well, I mean, it only takes a couple three of those and then you're opened up into a whole world of people, as you know, they all hang around each other, network, you mentioned financial advisors. How would you, you got any coaching tips, man, like, how to get in there, like, and start to position yourself as one of these non-QM experts, you know? Well, I think part of it is, is one, once you get your first, that word travels fast. Everyone loves to, especially as you said, you know, there is such a tight knit group in some cases in these kind of networks of people who serve clients like this. As soon as you can get your shot at one and you do a good job on it, then more will come. That's the best way I would explain it. So, you know, it's like I'm envisioning, hey, join the country club, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I would say in today's knit world, you can find it in some different ways. You know, digital is a great way, getting into the right groups is a great way, networking. And even, I think I still go back to the realtor partners in certain locations. If you're running with the red agents, there can be a really good, you know, trickle-down that has some of the borrowers who are, you know, needing some of these non-QM loans. So I think that's a good place. Like, I look out here, you know, here I'm in Vegas and I see these high-end properties go for sale and stuff and, you know, I know, look, let's be honest listeners, some of you are reluctant to go after high-end agents and you know who they are in your community, right? Or these people that are striving to be a high-end agents, but there's these agents that people are reluctant to, chicken list, or they're so big or whatever. And they've got clients like, with the examples we just described here, I mean, depending on where you are in the country, there's always high-end markets, right, high-end buyers. And the people that are buying those typically, right, are the high-level CEOs, they're the self-employed, they're the, right, 1099ers, whatever, and they need specialized solutions. Which gets back to, by the way, you said digital, imagine just telling stories of how you were able, just scenarios. Like, hey, here's a scenario that was recently done or accomplished. It doesn't need to be your own. You could just be sharing this story. Hey, I want to tell you a story about, right, a client who is able to get into a property, non-traditional. Here's the breakdown. Boom, boom, boom, boom. I mean, we see you and I see a lot of law officers educating people on Instagram, et cetera, with financial investment and advice. Yeah. But we're not this, right? Absolutely. That's a great, great way to do it and great recommendation. And that's, I guess that's taking almost some of what we do in our playbook in terms of how we market to our loan officers and our originators of the case studies. The scenario is kind of show the magic and it's something that catches the attention. It's like, wow, that's really cool. I can't believe that that's a program that I could offer and I could do so much more business with that. That's great. So, I would say that's a really good way of going about it and there's so many different ways to attract consumers in today's day and age and targeting and different data that can help identify the right opportunities that maybe aren't quite so obvious. There's ways you can uncover that. Well, how does somebody get educated in this, in developing this knowledge around these different types of loans? So our account executives and the team that we have here at Axos, our main job is to educate our partners. So our LOs that are working with us, if the LO doesn't know how to sell the product and originate the product, then we aren't doing our job right because that's our job. We have to train. We have to make sure you understand the guidelines. What changed? How can you submit a loan that works this way? So we have scenario deaths that we can send loans through on your behalf. We've got all sorts of resources to answer questions. And then, again, our account executives who handle the day-to-day relationships with the LOs, they are experts. We have some of the best in the business that are really, really good at what they do. And they will help educate and train and make sure that the LOs equipped because the last thing the LO wants to do is go to one of these high-end clients or partners and say, I've got this great loan. It's going to absolutely work great and then they don't have all the answers or something goes off. That's obviously what we don't want. That's what they don't want. So it comes down to the education and we do a really good job of training and helping we do webinars. We have a lot of resources available. And then we're just a pretty hard-working crew where we make ourselves available. We have filled questions whenever so needs us. Yeah, the examples are pretty compelling, man. I'm looking at this one right here, and again, the problem with the examples we're sharing is people, I don't want them to get the impression that it's all this high-level stuff. However, when you're dealing with people who have money, wealthy people, their financial situation tends to be a little bit more complex, case in point being that's why you become a specialist, you become more valuable there. You tell me, John, you see it more than I do. When you're doing what we described here like this next one right here, let's go through it and then I'm going to ask you a question, all right? So Newport Beach, Corona Delmar, obviously kind of in Yoll's backyard, 11 million appraised values, 6.9 million loan amount, one I occupied, listed for sale, borrower pulled 2 million out for real estate acquisition. So what is that? Is that like a bridge loan or what? Yeah, that was a bridge loan. So, you know, in certain higher end homes take longer to get the right buyer in, obviously. And so this individual wanted to make a move on the next sale real quick and next property real quickly. So, we have a bridge product that ultimately it's a 12 month loan where property is listed and you can take cash out, we give you the cash out and go put it down on the next property. And ultimately when the departing resident sells, you pay off the loan with the proceeds. It's real simple in that regard. So it just creates the flexibility, frees up some of the cash flow so they aren't having to go liquid A and elsewhere or miss out on a property. And to your point, this is a very significant number on this one, but doesn't mean it has to be. It could be a lower loan amount. It could be more of a realistic and in today's day and age where it's so competitive in terms of getting an offer accepted, sometimes if you got cash in hand and you have a property that you could use as a bridge, get a bridge loan on it, that could make a break getting an offer accepted on a new property you're getting into. So it's rare that I get this deep on the show regarding loan guidelines and stuff like that. But I'm looking at them here, I'm reading your 1 to 4 unit program, up to 60% LTV, there's probably some exceptions to that, but what I notice here is a minimum 680 FICO. So that's, you know, I mean, hell, we're not asking for 740. Yeah, we certainly will, again, it's, that's the beauty of non-cure and we look at what makes sense. And so, you know, maybe there's a 680 FICO, but everything else is great and why wouldn't we do that? It's a great loan. So the question I was going to ask is when you're structuring like that example of the other ones we shared, do you think, are the people who are getting that loan, the recipients, are they just calling you going, hey, what's your price, man? What's your rate? Well, fortunately, our partners, you know, they handle most of the calls and they handle that. And our brand is great. I mean, that's, that's where if they were saying that, they'd say, wow, that's it. Cool. Let's do this. That's a nice plug for where you're coming from. However, as you know where I'm coming from is, again, right, if, if, you know, you need heart surgery or you have this unique complex structure to your financial situation, you're not going to be like, no, no, I think I'm going to shop this. Hold on. I'm going to get three different quotes because there aren't three different people that are showing up in your life that can do this. Right. That's what I'm saying. And, and a lot of the competition that we'd face on something like this would be a hard money lender, which, which, that pricing is not even in the same ballpark as what, what we're offering. So, it's a, and guys, guys and gals listening out there is, you know, wherever you can tell stories of unique structuring of, of the deal that, right, delivers the solution, whether it's a bridge loan, which, of course, is much needed in today's market or these other unique situations where you can tell the stories of, look, I had a high-end buy or I had a self-employed person or I had, I had this scenario, like oftentimes, I know I fall back on this too. It's like, oh, you know, greatly, great rates, loan programs, not real competitive advantage. Well, I'm starting to, to back away from that a little bit more, you know, not so much from the rate, but, because I don't want to have the rate conversation, but more for of the product solution. This is where I think non-QM does change the conversation, because everybody has FHA, VA. All right, great. That's not that huge of a differentiator. But this, right, that's something that's a differentiator. Totally great. This is what makes you different from more of the commoditized market, which, which that's the reality of what agency FHA and VA have become, and this is where you are special as an originator. You've got something that probably, you know, 90% of the competition doesn't have the product that you have with this. Yeah. Well, then now let's talk about how do loan officers take advantage of this, because as you know, the audience, my audience, either are retail liners, they're at brokers, so fill in that gap for me. Yeah. Great question. So brokers can anyone can come in and apply and become a seller, you know, seller to us. There's an application on our website for seller approval, pretty simple process. And ultimately brokers typically will work with us on a wholesale arrangement. And then larger companies, which we work with as well, we do have some, some pretty significant and large companies out there that work with us. We often work on a correspondent basis with the larger companies. So whoever's in running secondary marketing or maybe an executive would be responsible for basically coming up with the decision to work with Axos and offer our non-Coem products. And there's an application as well on our website for that. And it's the correspondent application. We do both. And we love love both sides of it and definitely encourage anyone who's interested to take a look. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, what I just shared with everybody today in this PDF, I've learned, you know, about loan structuring right here and some of the options that are out there. And so I think that's great. We'll put links in the show notes, AxosBank, AXOSBank.com. Also you wanted to give out dare I say if people want to contact you directly? Yeah. I'm open for it. I love it. So, you know, John Dussman is my name again, my email is jdustman at AxosBank.com. Okay. Great. Well, I'm on the radar for you guys in terms of products or things you're looking kind of around the corner or that would be interesting to share. Yeah. Well, first and foremost, we're one thing I'm really excited about beyond product is we're updating our tech stack. We're working on a big, big marketing technology platform that, you know, we're working on and developing. That'll make us much better for our partners, make our experience stronger. So those of you if you see the website, the website's about to go through a major upgrade and overhaul. Part of that includes some new tools and ways for our L.O. partners to better market, better understand our products and get more information easier. Time obviously is a key for everyone. And the last thing I want is for our value partners to be, you know, spending unnecessary time trying to find something. So that's a big thing on my agenda here is building out our tech stack stronger, building some new marketing tools that can help our partners help their clients understand what these products are. Obviously, they're complex, but there's a way that we can communicate what they are through examples and through really making it easy, consumer-friendly language. So that's a big one. And then the additional side of it is continuing to look at product opportunity as the market continues to change as we go through, you know, some of the unknowns that are going to be coming up in this year, we always want to be ahead of it. And so I spend a lot of time researching, spend a lot of time thinking about, you know, what's coming next and always want to be prepared for that. So just mainly product evolution and being a better partner to our partners is how can we help serve you better. So those are the big things for me. How many AEs do you guys have in the country? Well right now, it's another good question. Right now we got seven. We are hiring. I would say seven super producers, they're rock stars. They do an incredible job, but we are currently hiring and growing, but they carry big, big pipelines. That's good. No, I was just curious about more than anything else. That's awesome. All right. So, axosbank.com. You shared your email. Brokers can apply. You could do correspondent lending as well. So if you're listening and you're like, man, I want in on this non-QM thing and you don't currently have it. Well, now you know how to get in touch with John or the team and or bring it to your leadership at your current company, because I would venture to guess there's a varies based on the area. I was going to get, oh, there's two or three loans in your, I mean, there's lots of non-QM loan opportunities in your own backyard. Yeah. With as high as real estate prices are now, it's amazing how much more non-QM opportunity there is. Yeah. For sure. All right. John, listen, I know we're tied on time. So I'm going to close it out here. Thanks again for sharing your story. I'm very, you know, it's like I'm thinking, as I said earlier, God, if I was ever to get back in a lending, I would definitely be showing up, like telling these stories and being the specialist, right, for the self-employed, for the high end, high net worth person who needs a high level consultant, because then I don't have to deal with price in most cases. Yeah. Well, thank you, Jeff. I really appreciate it. This has been an awesome opportunity and appreciate the opportunity to get back to the show and all that lows out there. So thank you. You bet. Listeners, you know what to do if you like this episode. First of all, reach out to John if you want to learn more and then secondly, leave us a review. And we appreciate you guys tuning in and we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now. Hey, thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. And remember if you like this episode, please leave us a review that helps us reach more people and bring more good value and content to you, our listeners. And then don't forget, if you are a loan officer who wants more agent referrals in less time, be sure to check out the Mortgage Marketing Pro membership at mortgagemarketing.pro and learn more about our turnkey system of agent classes that puts you front and center of your local real estate agents, attracting agents instead of chasing them and getting agent referrals like clockwork every single month, just like Kerry Cobb, who her first year in the business with closing over 75 loans, achieved 40% of those 75 loans exclusively from agent classes. And if you want to learn how she did it and how you can do it too, once again, go to mortgage marketing.pro and I'll see you over there. Thanks for listening. Bye for now. Hey guys, what's up real quick? You've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before and I just want to quickly remind you of that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased loans. You need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase business for you. Well, good news. 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