How to Create a Referral Explosion in Your Business

In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with real estate agents is essential for success. However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge. With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections. Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read. This has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals. And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business. To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy of the case study today. You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too. Don't miss out. Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio. And brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute, your number one source for truth in Mortgage Marketing. Hey, Listers. What's up? This is Jeff Zimfer. Welcome to another episode of Mortgage Marketing Live. That's right. Mortgage Marketing Live. Why? Because the episode you're going to listen to today right now is a repurpose of the live broadcast we did on the Mortgage Marketing Institute page and in the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast page as well. My special guest was gracious enough in that she stuck through some of the technical challenges that we had with a broadcasting live. But we've edited, I believe, most of those out. So this should be an enjoyable experience for you, just as a listener. If you're not watching the video of this and only listening to the audio, they should be a great lesson for you all about generating business referrals without asking. My special guest, Stacy Brown Randall. This is probably the most eye-opening, thought-provoking, emotionally charged conversation. I think I've had a long, long time about asking, getting, receiving referrals and a plan for doing that because most of us when we ask, what are we trying to do, ask for referrals? But it's more than just the ask. It's how to ask and Stacy takes us through her entire process for asking for referrals and, hey, you know, key point is its relationship before referral. So I really enjoyed this conversation and we've got plenty of resources that Stacy makes available for you here. One is her book, which is generating business referrals without asking a simple five-step plan to a referral explosion. We put a link to that in the show notes so you can definitely check that out and some additional stuff that is available for you as you listen to this podcast. I think this is a great one for you as if you're listening to this in your mortgage originator. Obviously, you're asking for referrals from clients, from referral partners. And by the way, feel free to share this with your real estate agent partners because they, of course, ask for referrals as well. And there's more than just one source of referrals. So I think you really, really enjoy this conversation that we unpack with Stacy. And before I forget, if you're looking for more resources on succeeding as a mortgage loan originator, go to mortgagemarketinginstitute.com, go grab our limited time offer right now. We're going to be taking it down soon. But it is the ultimate guide to teaching agent classes. Go check that out. It's a free download as a thank you to you for a listener. And so without further ado, let's get into this week's show. Stacy, so glad you're here. You are all about, let me make sure I bring up your web page and we're going to put links to the resources and all that kind of stuff here. And people ask you what you do for a living. You tell them what? So it depends on if I'm being cheeky or not, but I may tell them I'm going to belong with their mind. Now, what I actually tell them is, what's the advice you've always heard about how to get referrals? And typically, they're going to tell me ask and I will say to them, what if I could teach you a process of how to generate referrals where you don't have to ask? And that is effectively what I do. I teach people how to generate referrals without asking. That doesn't make no reason other work involved, but I teach them how to get referrals without asking without having to pay for them without having to be overly promotional or gimmicky. Yeah. And that's what really caught my attention is without having to ask, because we're so conditioned to ask, like ask early, ask repeatedly, ask at the end. And so I'm definitely, and I'm just so everybody knows I'm going to be bouncing back and forth between screens and my phone to drive interaction. So if you're here watching on the Facebook's, give us a shout out. Let us know where you're watching from. And I know you've got a lot of great resources, like a book and all that. We'll give people an opportunity to get that at the end. But what's the hardest part about teaching people, you know, a better way of asking for referrals? You know, it's interesting when I go through the process and I explain like why you shouldn't ask for referrals and what you can do instead and what does it look like and what are the steps and they're like, I get it, I get it, I get it. And then yet, they're still stuck on this 30, 40 decade old advice, but don't I have to ask? I mean, still at the end, don't I have to ask? And it really is getting people to understand that there is a different way. It really, I mean, I think a lot of people say this, but it really does start with the mindset. It's just that ability to recognize that, yes, I know you've been hearing for decades. But if you want to referral, you've got to ask for it or you have to network, you know, incessantly, I know all these kind of people in network and you have to spend all this time and energy and resources doing to get referrals, it's just getting them to see past that. That there is another way and that it's possible, like that's typically it's like getting them over the, okay, I believe you, but do I believe you? And then typically they have to put some things into practice and then they're like, oh, well, this is 10 times better. And I was like, I told you it would be just had to get there. Just believe me. Yeah. So quick shout out to Nathan from James Town, North Dakota. I thought it was cold where I am today. I got to imagine it's cold or where Nathan is today in North Dakota. So thank you for tuning in. Okay. So most of our viewers are in mortgage, mortgage brokers, loan originators, right? That kind of stuff. Maybe some real estate agents trickling in. I know that one of the main sources and I know you've worked in this industry before you've been on other podcasts, Gen du Plesses, one of our mutual friends. So for my viewers who haven't heard your suggestions or strategy for how, let's just take real estate agents first, right? Because we know that's like one of the main sources of business for mortgage loan originators is build a relationship. Hopefully I add enough value that I reciprocate back to referrals. Any coaching suggestions, best practices on either approaching that relationship or the ask? Yeah. So the number one thing is is that let's be honest. When you are attempting to develop a relationship or strengthen a relationship with a realtor, I know what you want. No one's an idiot here, right? Like if we're not like, you know, coming in like the wolf and sheep's clothing, like that's not ultimately what we're trying to do. But people forget they lead with their own intention so much. And I find that's when I'm teaching people how to turn non-referral sources into referral sources. So you've identified a couple of realtors that you would love to get business from, right? Like they do, they sell the big houses where they need the big jumbo loans and that's your specialty and you really want to cultivate a relationship with them. Most people will lead even when they convince themselves they're not, but they'll lead with what they ultimately want out of it. How can I make it easier for you? How can I work with your clients? Give me one that I can test, right? And as you can see how I work and how quick I am and how great I am and all those pieces, you're still always leading with yourself. And whereas ultimately, the realtor does want to know that you do a really good job and that you can get a deal across the closing line. What they're really interested in is actually how you care and show that you care about them because there are a bazillion of you they could send their business to, but what they're ultimately after is working with someone who gets who does a great job, but they actually have a connection in some level of a relationship with. I don't mean you grab drinks every Thursday night, isn't what I'm talking about, but that you've actually put some time and energy and effort into developing a relationship that's more about them than it is ultimately about you. Okay. So when do you think is the right stage in that context of mortgage loan originator realtor to broach the subject of the ask or, you know what I mean, because like you said, it's kind of the way it elephant in the room, right? Everybody knows that that's hopefully the outcome of this, but is there a timing that is best to approach that with? So I'm never going to teach you to pay attention to any type of timing that would have you then ask that realtor for referrals, but that is fundamentally the one thing that will shut down a consistent stream of referrals coming. I'm not telling you that you can't ask. There's lots of people who ask, there's lots of people who love asking, and they're not my people, right? But those people definitely exist. And the reality of that is that they may ask and they may get one or two referrals, but what they don't recognize is that setting the relationship up to where you're going in for an eventual ask definitely puts you in a specific, like a specific thought process within that realtor's mind. The truth is there are tons of opportunities, and this is ultimately what I teach for you to plant referrals seeds with that realtor that you're trying to develop a relationship with. And ultimately, this is the piece that people miss. Yes, I don't want you to ask, yes, you can plant referral seeds that kind of generate them thinking about you from a referral perspective, and there's some simple ones we can talk about. But the ultimate idea here is that I don't refer you because I'm actually trying to help you grow your business. I refer you because I have a client that needs a solution that I think you can provide. But I'm only going to think of you if you're actually staying top of mind and we have a relationship and you've actually tried to help me. You want me to remember you? Help me first. And I don't mean give me a referral because it's not always back and forth in that way. And so I don't teach it in that model. But when you have a conversation with that realtor, and I'm hoping you'll plant some referral seeds, but in addition to that, figure out what it is they need. Are they, do you have a conversation about you're both raising teenage kids and you're both pulling your hair out? And it really is terrible. And are you trying to grow your businesses and you got these kids? Well, then maybe it's sending them a parenting book after the fact, right? I don't know exactly what every situation will entail, but there's always a conversation that you can have where you can actually make it about them and do something for them. And then you start thinking, because think about it, Jeff, when someone does something nice for you, how does it make you feel? Yeah. You want to reciprocate, basically. You know what? It's kind of how God made us. It's like how the whole human race thing works for those of us that are not dead inside. And obviously there are some that didn't work for, but the reality of it is that that's how we're created is to like want to help other people. So when we get help, we're more willing to help, which means you've now moved into that top of mind awareness. You're not just that keeping in touch or that top of mind awareness and a relationship can be developed. And if you're planning some simple referral seeds as well, now you're starting to get into my subconsciousness of how I think about you. And that is ultimately what I want you to do. And that's what I want you to do when you're just trying to turn someone into a referral source. There's a different strategy I want you to take when they are referring you and you just want more or you want to make sure you're the only one getting them. All right. We'll cover that next, but I want to hang out on this topic first of like even approaching that the topic of getting a referral. And again, for those that might be just joining us, what's up Stephanie? Good to see you. You know, we're talking about the context of a mortgage loan professional meeting with a real estate agent and you know, the whole conversation of getting referrals and all that. What you've just illustrated for us here, Stacy is, in my audience, we'll know this. But and it sounds, it's one of the things that we've heard about for such a long time, but few people practice it. Maybe we can unpack that a little bit, but it's relationship before referral. That's basically what you're saying, right? It's relationship before anything. All right. I like that. Even better. So you're saying that us as professionals in sales and business and all that, right? If I kind of take kind of the key thing of what you said about that is when you are having a meeting with a potential referral partner, it's not about the referral. It's about what you can do for them. Yes. Ultimately. Will it develop into more? Yes. Right? And then the idea here is that you'll follow a process that allows it to make sure that it actually does. But the reality here is is that when you sit down with a realtor and it's very clear what you're ultimately after, what would it be nice for you to actually be a breath of fresh air and be that, right? That loan officer that's not like, okay, so let's talk about who you work with and let me tell you what kind of process I have that I can put your people into like, why don't you just be like, hey, let's just talk about business, like we're both business owners or you work for someone, but you're still responsible, right? For your own generation and your own leads and your own revenue, like let's just talk about business. Like how's it going? Like be of the breath of fresh air to that realtor. And that will actually have you be, you'll be more remembered that way than anything else that you do. And I know because so many people get stuck in the, but if I don't ask and I don't talk about business, they won't remember me in that way. I'm like, trust me. They're not remembering the 32 other of you's that they've met with who led with that first, what they're going to remember is, whoa, I had a conversation with Jeff and guess what? We talked about work, we talked about my work and then we talked about life and we've got things in common. I like him, right? And that starts that no like and trust factor that you ultimately need. And I'm not saying it's going to work perfectly with every person you meet with, right? You don't connect with everyone, but the reality is depending on the volume of closed business you need. Now, let them lead. That has a lot to do with your closing ratio. But I'm not the amount of closed business you need every month, right? Most people don't need hundreds and hundreds of referral sources that they're trying to cultivate a relationship with. Like you teach, you're going to get other ways to bring in leads and you should be doing those prospecting and marketing ways. But the referral piece should be a piece of the puzzle and it should be a piece of your pie as well. It just, you have to operate in that space totally different. And here's why. When I'm doing prospecting activities or I'm doing marketing activities, I'm ultimately talking to the end user, right? Ultimately, I'm talking to the person that I want to eventually either bring me their clients or their clients going to find me and then I'm going to have leads that I can do business with. But when you're in the referral space, you actually are never talking to the end user. You're not talking to the client that needs the loan, right? You're talking to the realtor who knows the clients that you ultimately want to work with. So there's not a sales perspective happening here. Is that do I trust you and will I put you in front of my clients? But that comes with us having a relationship first and me liking you. And that's the piece that people forget. That's interesting. Hey, Kenny. What's up? Matthew, how are you doing? So, do you think people should, because this isn't necessarily natural, do you suggest people to focus the conversation not on you, but on them? Is it a best practice? Or maybe have some questions laid out to ask in advance? Yeah, it's interesting. For some, this is going to come completely natural. They're just going to know how to have a conversation and they'll probably enjoy it more, because they're not worried about what work stuff they're going to attempt to talk about. But for others, where this is a little uncomfortable, absolutely. If there's some questions that help you, I mean, I've definitely helped some people figure out, like, what are the questions we ask? And my favorite thing was I was working with the CPA and they're like, I don't do networking. I'm like, well, your firm wants you to do networking, so she's like, well, I don't know what to say. And I'm like, well, then let's come up with some safety questions, right, so that you can hold it out of your pocket if you need them in case. So, but ultimately, what this is, what you're asking them about is you're trying to make a connection with something you guys have in common. So, you're going to talk about business. You're going to talk about life, right? So, when somebody else has kids and you have kids, right, that makes a connection happen. And it's just a matter of you actually acting because you are curious about the other person. And then I always recommend you're going to walk out of there and have a lot of stuff, like take some notes, right? Like, take a couple of minutes and write something down that you actually learn about folks because that's actually how you remember it from that next time you run into a minute networking event, you're like, hey, your daughter was getting married. How did go? Was it amazing? Did you survive? Right. And I know this doesn't come natural to most people, but the ability to have a conversation with someone when there is actually a commonality there, it will be easier. And the more you do it, the easier it actually gets. Absolutely. So, if anybody's not noticing in the notes, get ready to submit your biggest challenge with referrals or question you have about referrals in general. So, I got a question for you, Stacy. You said this doesn't come naturally to most people. Thought that popped into my head when you said that was, I find that a little bit surprising if we are in sales, which is a people business, do most people not have that natural kind of curiosity, what do you say to that? Yeah, so I mean, I think lots of people are really capable of having conversations with folks. And they can go to a barbecue and have a conversation and hang out. It's when we layer in the idea that, hey, by the way, you need to make money, right? You've got a sales goal writing on this or you have some mortgage payments that needs to be paid. That's writing on this. We go crazy. Like some people just get a little crazy and, you know, my husband's in sales and he and I were having, he and I were having this conversation. And we were, he was talking about somebody else that he works with, that he knows. And he was like, you know, like he's such a nice guy, but he just, he's just not landing. And I was like, you know, at the end of the day, it does take a little bit of social awareness, like reading cues and situations to be able to really kind of hone in on people and connect with them. That's not where it starts. That's, that's something that can be developed. It starts with being, like you said, naturally curious or making yourself be curious when you go in to have a conversation with someone. But remember, the way I want you to have this conversation about finding out about them and walking away with one thing you can do to help them, whatever that is on the business side of the personal side, right, like that's your only objective. That's all I want you to do. And that is way easier than remembering which of my products am I going to pitch to them at the very end of this meeting because I'm removing that from the table. I'm not saying you won't have conversations where you do that, but when you're talking to a realtor, you want to develop into a referral source, play the long game and be willing to first connect with them on that human to human level, that H to H level, right? And then develop, right, that relationship and the commonality is to where you're building in that I like them and he helps me or she's helpful, right, to the point where they're going to think of you first and then we start building on that. Do you think it's useful for anybody to have some language or dialogue because what I like to do when I'm approaching that situation, a realtor who's already got their guard up there, they're expecting me to ask for, right, I like to disarm it and just like say, hey, listen, before we even get started, I just want you to know I'm not here to ask for business. I'm not here to yet and kind of set it up that way. Do you got any tips around that? I mean, I think you can always call out the elephant in the room if you want to. I think what you have to be careful about is don't tell them, hey, I'm not here to sell you anything. And then in the meeting with selling them, right, so so many people do that. It's like, wait, I'm going to hear right now my guard's doubly up and you'll never get back. Right. Right. So I think it's important. I mean, I, I like to say when I'm sitting down with people or if I'm thinking about, if I were a loan officer sitting down with someone's like, look, I'm sure you meet with a thousand of me, are you could meet with a thousand of me? And can we just like, let's talk business, but can we not talk about my business? You know what I do? I provide loans. Like it's not complicated. Right. I'm going to help you figure that out. And we can have that conversation if and when you ever want to, but can we just have a conversation about business because we're both business owners or we're both in sales. And then but usually these conversations start better if you can actually start something on the personal side. Right. So if you can start that conversation with saying, hey, and like in my case, I will admit that it drives most of the people in my family crazy, I'm probably going to be three to five minutes late. If I'm needing you somewhere, I'm going to be three and five minutes late and I will definitely blame it on one of my children because I have three of them and it's three to many. It's convenient. And it's true. Very well. Right. But I mean, it used to be me, but now I've got these kids. And so that's why the three to five minutes sometimes is a little bit longer. So I'm going to start there. I'm going to first apologize, of course, because I actually do feel bad about being late. I just can't seem to get over it and then I'm going to start with a kid conversation and then we're going to talk about that. And at the end of the day, the goal here is, is like, hey, do we like each other? Because then we can start talking about business maybe in the next meeting or the meeting after that. But we're trying to build relationships, but like I said, we're talking about playing the long game and so many loan officers are in volume, right? Specifics. I got to hit these metrics. They forget that piece. Yeah. And so you have to be intentional about doing this if you want it to work. And will you get 30 referrals from a realtor where you go have a nice, fun conversation with them? No, not in a month or two. But if it's filling your pipeline a year from now, that conversation and then continuing to make sure you stay top of mind with them and plant referral seeds was extremely valuable. Yeah. You keep point there. Play the long game. Too many people are in short term sales DNA, you know, just quick, make the sale. Yes. And they lose out on the bigger picture. So Mike Copeland's got a question for us. Thanks, Mike, for putting that in there. Mike has a question about getting consistent referrals and not the garbage. So, you know, there's one of those things where I think it's okay. So there's a lot actually there that I would, that I would unpack in that question. Is it the garbage you're getting because you're asking for referrals? And so people are just like, okay, fine, just give them some, so go away. Right? Like I'm not saying that about. Was it Michael? Was that? But no, no, I know that's not Mike. He's a quality guy. Okay. So sometimes when people say I get garbage, I'm like, yeah, because you're asking and people just want you to go away. So that's not Mike's situation. Then one of the things you have to consider, and it's one of the things that I always tell my students who go through my program is as we're moving them, we call them referral ninja beginners and we're ultimately trying to get them to referral ninja masters where they can consistently receive referrals without asking for them and have that consistency pipeline they're looking for results are the only thing that gets you to the max. So if I have a student that I'm talking to that's in Mike's situation, they're like, I'm getting referrals, but they're not quality, right? There is language that you want to use when you're having a conversation with that referral source. It happens once they're in the habit though of referrals. If you're going to sit down and have a quality conversation with a referral source, it better not be based on the first or second referral that they've sent you. You need to be able to identify a pattern. And a pattern tells you that they just probably don't understand where you do your best work or what it looks like for you. So you need to have a conversation with them and it is a face to face or phone conversation. You do not send us a text message or an email. That is like the wimpy way out and nobody here should be a wimp. So the idea here is that you're going to have a conversation with them that's going to be an actual conversation and that you're going to have noticed a pattern of not receiving the referrals you want because that means there's a habit to refer you. They just aren't giving you what you need and they need to understand the difference of it. And then it's all in terms of how you position that conversation and you have to make it about yourself. So the way you make it about yourself is like, you know what, you're so great to refer me so and so and so and so and so and so. I really appreciate it. I had a very disappointed that I wasn't able to help them. Now you don't throw any of those leads or those referrals, those clients, those people under the bus and be like, because they had no money, right? Or they had to have a credit source like, you don't say that. You do talk about, you know, I was disappointed that I wasn't able to help them. I always want to help the people that you're able to send to me, but where I do my best work is and then you lay out who your ideal client is. And that is an exact script that we actually talk about inside the growth by referrals program because it's the piece that people get to where like, hey, at first, it's like, just get me some referrals and then it's like, okay, now wait, I want to increase my closing ratio. Now we have to have some different conversations around the ability to close them. So some people start a little farther, it's not like Mike starts a little further in the journey of, hey, you're getting referrals, right? But now we need to be getting you the right kind of referrals. Yeah. And Mike, feel free to comment on further to that. Thank you, Stacey. Great answer to that. And I know, so this goes back to something you said earlier, which I wrote down, it ties into like coaching your referral partners on how to refer you. Like you have something which is identifying exactly what is a referral. Can you help us coach our referral partners on how to clarify what a referral is to us? Yeah. So what I find when I start talking about referrals is that everybody has their own definition of what that looks like and they apply their own definition to it. And we're actually taking four different types of prospects and we're lumping them under the umbrella of referrals. So I would have people actually, they will tell me is a referral that is actually an introduction or they will tell me, oh, this is a referral and it's actually word of mouth buzz. Or they'll say, well, I got this referral and it's actually a warm lead and then there is the referral. So let me start by defining referral because once you know what it is, then you can instantly understand when you're not receiving it and then have the language to flip that non-referral into a referral. So referral has two things that all other types of prospects who come in close in this family are not going to have. And so number one is a referral is always done by personal connection, which means there's a referral source, a realtor who is going to connect you to the person who needs a loan to the prospect. There's always going to be a personal connection. 98% of the time, this is going to happen over email. That's how I would want you to have it happen because then you're on the email, the prospects on the email, off the referral source, the trust factor never evaporates because you're going to reply to that email so they remember, why am I getting an email from Jeff? Oh, that's right. Sally, my realtor told me this is who I need to talk to, right? It just reinforces, I do want to talk to this person. So it's the personal connection first. The second piece is that there's a need identified. That means that when I'm connecting you to a prospect, that person has a problem. They're interested in solving it and now they're ready to talk to someone who can be their solution. And you're, of course, the solution. So they show up with a buyer's mentality and they already trust you because they've been connected by someone that they trust, so they're more open to having a conversation. That is the, that is the effect of definition of a referral. You're connected by the referral source to the prospect. So trust can be transferred and the prospect has a need and they know it. They know they have a need, right? Now this is a little bit easier when a realtor is connecting you to someone because they're probably not going to waste time connecting you to someone who doesn't need a loan, right? So this makes it really easy, I think, for loan officers and other industries not so much. We have to really pay attention to actually if this is a referral or not. So the idea there is, is when someone says, hey, I need you guys to connect and you don't say why? Like because they need a loan or because you're trying to grow my network or because they need some free advice, then it's just an introduction. And knowing what it is allows you to reply appropriately to the situation. When you get a referral based on that definition I gave, you should know it and you should be able to take action based on what it is because it's very simple. They're ready. They just have to decide if they're going to buy from you. Okay. Does that help Mike and Stephanie, Kenny, Matthew? Does that help clarify the what is a referral? Do you think it's that depending on the level of relationship or does it make sense to try to think how, like, you know, with the loan officer to articulate little more detail around what is a referral? I think that's going to depend on the relationship you have with that agent. Yeah. I mean, I think if someone had an example, I could probably unpack it from that perspective. But the idea here is, is that if a real interest says to you, hey, yeah, I gave your contact information to a couple of my clients, you did not get a referral. I got one right here. Okay. Got you. Okay. The three card approach. You may have heard of this. Have you heard of this in our industry at all? Give it to me just to make sure I'm on the same level. So some realtors, what they do is they do the three card approach. They have a client who comes in, you know what I mean? They give three cards to three different loan officers. Yeah. Exactly. They don't want to play favorites. Right. And because they think they want to, like, play by respo rules and all that kind of stuff, which is a bunch of BS, but anyway, I thought I'd throw that at you, curveball. Yes. Okay. So here's the reality of that. There will always be those agents that won't play favorites, right? They won't take a stand. What they don't realize is that their client is looking for them to give them better direction. You being the person to tell the real to that's probably not in your best interest, being like, well, you're really just screwing up with your real, with your clients, because you're not giving them the answer. Like, my husband and I, we just sold our house last year, right? We're in a temporary living situation because what I love, because there's no yard work to do, but we'll eventually buy another home, right? Yeah. And the truth is is that when we had conversations with our agent, our conversations with our agent happen like this, well, what would you do? Well, what do you think? What would this look like? What, you know, and so those are the conversations we're having. And I remember the state conversation we got into is that we were selling our house. It was, we had a closing date coming up. There's another house. It was like a knock. So we thought we'd put an offer in and he said, your mortgage guy won't be able to get it done because he already talked to our mortgage guy and he knew how the process took. He goes, I have someone else I can recommend, if you're interested, if we're going to hit this closing time period, so you're not living without a house for a couple of weeks making the closing time. Oh, I see. The mortgage guy you had brought to the table. No, so it was our realtor. Yeah, yeah. And whether a mortgage person to the table, because we had somebody, would you use somebody for years, right? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. They said, your current mortgage person won't be able to get the job done. Right, because he, and here's the thing, because he had already had a conversation with our mortgage broker and he knew, and he laid out how the bank works, right? And he laid out exactly what it looks like, because that's something our realtor does at the very beginning of any, this is like months ago, before you even put our house on the market, he had a conversation with our mortgage broker about what's your process, because I want to know so that I can make this as smooth as possible for the Randals for us. So that's one thing to keep in mind. But the other thing I want to say about this is, is if you walk into a situation where a realtor saying, I'm giving out your card in three others, you have to understand that to your point, they're either doing it to play by some rules or low rules, not downgrading anyone to play by the rules. I'm a little follower. So they're, they're playing by the rules, or they actually don't know enough about their client situation to know who would be the right loan officer for them, and you could lead with that, right? If you know the realtor says, hey, I gave your name, I gave you in three other people right to this one client, then when you call the client, recognize that you got to lead not really a referral, but it was warmer, right? It was definitely a warmer lead than it was anything else, but lead with that. You're like, hey, I know that Nancy probably gave you the name of a couple of people, right? Here's a couple of things you need to know about how different loan officers are going to work and what it looks like. It isn't all based on the lowest cut through it late. We can get you. Here's, and then you need to play advisor to these clients, because then you're not selling. You make it sound like, well, you really have their best interest at heart. You have to not, we can't always fix the referral source and how they were for us. Sometimes we have to not have fixed that in the sales process with the ultimate client, but ultimately I want you developing a relationship with those realtors where they don't hand three cards. Or they hand three cards, and they're like, hey, these people are great, but Jeff always gets the job done. And they point to your card, or they say something in effect about you. The truth is you probably have a niche on some level, and you can't help every client they ever have. They should have more than one loan officer. They really should, and you also probably can't handle anybody who has got crazy, crazy volume on some level, but you just don't want to be one of 50, right? You still want to rise to the top of the pile when you can, and you want to make sure that what they say about you is, is like, hey, there's three people who I think can help you. I work the most with Jeff, and he can get the job done. That all comes based on a relationship and what that looks like. And some realtors are going to play the rules, and they're going to say, here's three cards, I can't tell you to use, because that will be misleading, and I can't do that. You're not going to change that realtors mind, so stop trying. All right, Nathan asked a question, Jeff, I'm just going to answer this question, I'm hoping that's okay. Yep. Nathan asked a question, do you set weekly or monthly meeting goals with partners? So ultimately, what I teach is it's about strengthening and developing a relationship. And so it's about doing things that make you memorable and meaningful, and keep you more top of mind. When you do those, oh, they're definitely on the screen there. Okay, so I'm just going to keep going. Setting week, oh, okay, wait, let me make sure I get this right. All right, so Nathan, I'm going to answer your question in two ways based on what Mike just said. So setting weekly or monthly meeting goals with partners, if you have a relationship with a referral source who's already referring you, the relationship you're going to build with them is going to look entirely different, then if you're trying to establish relationships with your new potential referral sources that I do always say you need to try to get that first meeting. And then always walk away from that first meeting with some type of action you're going to take. That's how you're going to help them. And then yes, you're probably going to need to make sure that you are following some type of process to be able to like to move past that, starting with staying in touch and eventually moving to top of mind. So in my book, I talk about ways to plant referrals seeds like when somebody asks the question how's business because that question gets asked in every coffee meeting you're going to go to or every networking event you're going to go to is making sure you know how to plant more furlce seeds with the how's business, but the majority of those conversations as we've been talking about are going to be about building a relationship, walk away from those meetings with the next step and let that drive the interaction you're going to have with that agent moving forward, but you're going to probably have to kiss some toads before you get to your friends or your princess. So you're going to have to probably set some meetings and set more than you want to do as you're trying to find the right ones to cultivate and it's going to take time to cultivate them into a referral source. So keep that in mind. Okay, let's see what was the next question because we had another one in there. Deb, tell us how people can learn more about what you can offer. Oh, okay. So when it comes to working with me, I have my program Growth By Referrals. It's time I'm going to teach you how to generate new referrals from and good to have a match. I'm going to answer that question, too. So the way that I work with folks is really on two levels. I'm going to teach you how to turn people into referral sources following the process and then I'm going to teach you once those folks are referring you how to generate more referrals from them. My program's called Growth By Referrals. I work with folks in two ways. There is my independent study online program. If you ever been through an online course, you know what this looks like, except for you get to turn in the work that you do and me and my team actually review it and reply back. It's one thing that makes us different. You know someone's paying attention to the work that you're turning in and you have access to a Facebook community where you can ask questions and find other people who are doing exactly what you're doing. And then of course, I have a VIP option for the person who wants all that. I want the online program, but I want access to you, Stacy, I want you to help me build it, work with me for a year, quarterly calls, initially we build your session, your generating plan, your referral generating plan together and that's my VIP option. You can find all of this at Growth By Referrals.com. Okay, so Deb then also asked, how do you answer the question, how's business? Perfect. It's in Chapter 11 of my book. If you hear this and you don't write it down fast enough or whatever, you can go get it in the book, generating business referrals without asking. Chapter 11, it's how you plant referral seeds. That's what that chapter is about. And the easiest one to plant is when someone says, how's business, nine times out of ten, I'm going to guess you respond with good or busy or it's going great. Well, what if you changed your language and planted a referral seed of which we're not sure it will go anywhere, right? We're not sure if we planted the seeds, it's going to go anywhere, but we won't know until we plant it. Your response should be more in line with when someone says, hey Stacy, how's business? My response is going to be, it's great. I actually brought on five new clients last month and four of them came by referrals, right? Isn't it awesome to receive referrals? It makes turning those people into clients so much easier and then you be quiet, right? You're not trying to explain it, you're hoping to engage in a conversation with them talking to you about, well, how are you getting those referrals or, well, that's a lot of referrals or, well, that, you know, that's whatever the conversation is and the dynamics going to happen is your response to how business is specific to your referrals. Here's the thing, you can't lie. You got to be authentic and you can't manipulate the situation, but let's say you didn't get any referrals in January, but you did get something in 2019. Well, then shift what you're going to say to say that, like, thanks for asking, business is really good. You know, I was looking back on 2019 and I realized that like 50% of all my clients came by referral. I love getting referrals. It makes life so much easier. Don't you agree? Right? So it's how you engage them in conversation about referral, but you plant the seed that you're actually doing business by referral. Here's the thing. I can't guarantee you're going to plant the seed and have some kind of referral explosion happen, but if the person engages in conversation with you about referrals, they will remember you for it. And that tells you that there's a way for you to continue to build a relationship with them and potentially turn them into a referral source. So from that perspective, hopefully Deb, that was helpful or whoever asked that question. And then, hey, Jeff, you're back on my screen. Yeah, I don't know if you can hear me though. I can. Oh my God. Hopefully, I did okay. Just kind of taking over. I just went to the snack bar. So great job. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. No seriously. Those are great answers. Thank you so much. Great questions. By the way, from the crew as well. Thanks Deb for pitching and helping out there. I guess I needed to just minimize my video and come back. That's what fix to be live. Okay. I know you're tied on time and you've been very generous with your time as well. So I also want to go back to the resources you mentioned. I don't want to blow by those. I did put links in the notes. Like you said, one of them was to your book, which is on Amazon, which I encourage everybody to get fantastic book at a few options for it there. And then secondly is you have a kind of a course, right? You talked about growth by referrals program. Yes. Yep. And so and the book is available audio eReader and of course, a printed copy as well. And I do read it for those who that matters to them when they're buying an audio book. It is actually me reading it. I had a lot of fun. But yes, my program's called Growth by referrals. And what I was explaining is the two ways that the program works and how I engage and work with clients. Because a one-on-one kind of VIP option, if you want me to build your plan with you, be available to you for an entire year, do quarterly checking calls, track your progress, right? There's a VIP option. And then for those of you who are like, I kind of just want to do this on my own. There's independent study. But what makes our program different is you, there's a few key times during the program where you're doing work and you're creating something and then you're actually uploading it through the system. And then me and my team are actually checking it and replying back to you on what we think. And if you need a shift or if you did a great job, we'll tell you that and kind of what it looks like. So there's more of a hands-on approach even at the independent study level. And then both levels, of course, come with a Facebook group of just the students in the program. And we're in eight different countries now. So I mean, we're kind of all over in terms of where people are using this. I do know somebody in the UK, I think it was in England, it's actually a mortgage burger that's in the program. It's been in for a couple of years. I think there's some other ones in there too. I just remember him because he was my first UK purchaser. And so I just happened to remember that he was also a loan officer as well. But there's definitely, there's other industries in there. So there's lots of realtors in my program, but there's also CPAs, attorneys, interior designers that kind of runs the gamut in terms of people who are trying to get referrals without asking. Well, that's fantastic. Well, I know I've learned a lot by you being here. And I think the big takeaway I have from kind of the overall kind of lessons that we learned here today is referrals don't happen by accident, right? You've got to be very intentional. You've got to lead with relationship and connection over conversion. And I think you presented a lot of strategies for us to follow on that today in some additional resources for people to check out. So thank you for being here and putting up and putting up with these tech challenges. I'm just glad they were your challenges and not not. Don't keep it pretty cool under the lid. Like, didn't seem to be too flustered. At all. I'm actually impressed. I'll probably learn from you. I've had that in so many times. You just got a role that you know, trying out some of these software. I used to use B Live all the time back in the day and I was like, okay, I'm not ready to go to this new one. So I'll go back to this one and wouldn't you know, something happened. So remind of why I left in the past. So anyway, I do appreciate you greatly. I know you're incredibly busy and I'm definitely going to be buying your book. Oh, by the way, one other tip for you guys and this might, maybe the last word on this is I'm a big believer in giving something of value such as a book. And again, not to bring up the whole recipe thing, but it's just right. Something that somebody will appreciate, a small gift of kindness, whatever. And I think that Stacy's book is an excellent example to start out the new year about how you can demonstrate that you're willing to invest in relationships by leading with a gift of her book. Hey, if you do that, here's the messaging I want you to use on it. Right? Say, hey, I found someone who believes what I believe when it comes to referrals and I wanted to share it with you. Wow. Think about the conversations you can have once they go through this book, right? Right. Make yourself as much of an expert as I am. You probably should read my book first. I'm just saying, but make yourself an expert as much as I am. And then that puts you on the same kind of level as like you want them to know this about you. And ultimately, it's because you agree. If you don't agree, don't do it, but that language keeps you on the same level as me when you're painting the book off. And I think it's just it's better remembered. That's awesome. Stacy, so thank you so much for being here. We appreciate you people watching listening. Even if it's on the replay, go check out the resources, follow Stacy, buy, subscribe, take everything she's got to offer, and you will grow your referrals. So thanks again, Stacy. Thanks, Debra, having me. You bet. And everybody, thanks for watching. And thanks for hanging with us through some of the tech challenges. And I promise this will improve as the show levels up this year and becomes real. All right. Take care. Have a great day. I appreciate you. See you on the next one. Bye for now. Thanks for listening to Mortgage Marketing Radio. One more truth in Mortgage Marketing. 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