How to Create Trust & Build Value With Realtors

Hey, my friend. What's up? Welcome to this episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast where on this episode, I'm being interviewed by my friend, Kelly Yale. Kelly has her own podcast, which you're going to hear more about on today's episode. We're going to link everything up in the show notes and Kelly flipped the script, turned the microphone around and started putting me in the hot seat, asking me questions about Mortgage Marketing referral partners, marketing strategies, technology, and how to map out a roadmap for you guys in the new year in 2025. And Kelly, she's got a ton of experience in the industry very well-respected. Over 15 years in this industry, she actually helped to build and integrate the CRM digital solution for the nation's largest retail lender. So she's got incredible marketing insights into behaviors of referral partners and home buyers to work with a lot of loan officers and companies. And so she, I think, is one person who is well equipped to go beyond the surface and dig deep and get at the meat of, how do we really stand out and differentiate ourselves across all platforms, whether that's for your referral partners, consumer director, otherwise. I hope you find this conversation insightful and inspiring as I did. And I'm going to turn the tables on Kelly and interview her on my podcast in a coming episode as well. So stay tuned for that. Before we get into this week's episode, I do want to ask you a question. It's almost 2025. My question is, are you ready for more realtor referrals? Would you like to discover how your current strategy for attracting referrals stacks up? And would you like to gain valuable insights to grow your referral network and increase your production? What if you could take a short quiz three minutes or less? And in that time, you would uncover the roadblocks and blind spots that you have. If you're not consistently generating referrals, hey, it may not be because realtors don't want to work with you. It could be because your strategy isn't working as well as it should be. And so that's why I spent two full days putting together these 15 questions, literally three minutes or less. That is the realtor referral scorecard. And it's a quick quiz designed to help you do the following things. Number one, uncover what's holding you back. Pinpoint opportunities for improvement gain actionable steps you can implement today. So in three minutes or less, you're going to know exactly where you stand in each of the following areas. They'll be a ranking in a score for each one of these. Your current level of realtor engagement, your current personal brand and visibility systems and process that you have or don't have in place, your ability to deliver value and have that be acknowledged and recognized by realtors. And then you follow up in relationship building. It's literally customized for you. And the output is going to be a curated set of ideas and strategies that you can implement right away. Boost your referrals, boost your engagement, your conversations, understand those key areas, those five areas, realtor engagement, personal brand systems, value deliverability, follow-up and relationship building. It's going to be a blueprint for you specifically. So if you want to get your customized report, here's what you can do. You can take the quiz, go over to realtors.scoreapp.com, realtors.scoreapp.com. And take the quiz. I'll also link it in the show notes. So if you're listening on your phone or wherever you can just scroll to the bottom and it says realtor referral scorecard or take the quiz or something like that, just tap the link in there and literally it'll be about two minutes is all. Now, I've already tested this and I've had a bunch of load officers who I know do this and they gave me great feedback in that it really helped them identify where their current benchmark is and gaining clarity on the easiest and most cost effective activities to improve their performance. So there's a lot you could be doing, but what you really need to do is identify your key growth levers and focus your time and effort on those. So the scorecard will help you do that. Once again, it's realtors.scoreapp.com. Check it out. Link in the show notes. Love to get your feedback on that. So yeah, go take the quiz and enjoy. So let's get into this week's show. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Mines of Mortgage Podcast. This is Kelly Yale. And I am so delighted to welcome my guest today. This is Jeff Zinfer. He is the quote unquote chief truth teller. I had to keep saying that again and again. The Mortgage Marketing Institute. He has been in the business for a long while and he is going to talk to us today about some of the ways that loan officers and professionals can actually create relationships that are going to yield results in the future. Jeff, I'm so delighted to have you on. Thank you so much. Pleasure to be here with somebody who is also a truth teller. So this could be kind of salty. Maybe we'll see. I mean, it's not untrue. And one of the things that I so respect about you is that you're brave enough to say the things because not only does it take a lot of bravery to say things that aren't happy and shiny all the time, but it also takes courage to be able to say like the winds are shifting and I see that and I want to help. You know, how do you feel like most people interpret sort of being told the truth? It's funny. Just a week ago in the background in my house, somebody was watching that movie. The title escapes you right now with Jack Nicholas, Tom Cruise, the military movie. Oh, yeah. I know. For some reason, I can't think of it. I know, but but that line, you can't handle the truth. Yeah. I think some people can handle the truth. I think people don't sometimes like the truth because that means they have to change. And this is this is me speaking to myself right now. Let's just face it, like change, change sucks, change is hard, change is difficult, but change is probably the one thing that's constant. I mean, some things don't change and then other things do change. Let me say this one last thing and then I'll hand it back to you. Change of change and the truth. I love little quotes and snippets, but this one stood out from your while back. Somebody was asking Jeff Bezos, what do they focus on at Amazon? So they can, you know, stay ahead of the curve, competitive, you know, technical, technological trends and all that fun stuff. And you know, he said, he said, actually, what we focus more on at Amazon is what doesn't change. And he followed it up with saying, what doesn't change is people will always want now you listening, feel in the blank. In Amazon's case, people will always want excellent service, right? Good price, efficiency, process. Those are things that will never change no matter what happens to technology. So I thought that might be relevant. I mean, it's an excellent quote, but you know, if you think about it from a mortgage professional standpoint, I would argue that many do not understand what that customer journey is and should be. Because to your point, Amazon knows, listen, people want an easy way to do something. They want to be able to cash out quickly. They want to be able to rely upon a two day turnaround for their package and that they're going to get the right package and that they're going to review the package and be super happy. But that's no different than anything we're experiencing in mortgage, right? We find this human being, we understand who they are, what their goals are. We put together a plan for them that says, you can do this. Then we stay with them and show them exactly how to do it. And at the end, they have this amazing house and you're this trusted guide for them. And that is a really great relationship to take into the future. So technically, it is the same kind of process. Yeah, I love that. And I think people listening to this right now should probably ask yourself as we're heading into this, you know, end of the year, new year planning where a lot of people do this right now is maybe it's time to optimize or reevaluate your customer experience, your process. What because people will to your point in getting a mortgage, how long have we been talking about making that more efficient and everything like that, right? There's been some progress on that, but it still comes back to, I think, the individual L.O. listening to this right now is the captain of that ship, if you will. And they're the one that gets to some degree direct in control. What is the customer experience? And I think many have not optimized for that yet. I completely agree. And you know, you and I are both pretty passionate about the relationship between the loan officer and the real estate agent, right? And for many years, I talked to, I don't know, hundreds of thousands of realtors every week on behalf of loan officers. And the one thing that, you know, when we first started sort of that relationship curation, we had so many different loan officers kind of telling us what it should be, right? Oh, I want to have rates in there. I want to have this in there. I want to check in the recipe in there. And I was like, we're not doing any of that. And the reason that is is because the only thing that mattered to me from the years 2014 till today is how is a loan officer going to help create value for that realtor? And how are they going to help build the business of that realtor, right? Of course, you're going to represent both of your brains and the transaction. Of course, you're going to be doing as much as you can to make people proud of that. But the reality of how you build those relationships is truly saying, here's what I can give to you. I don't have to ask you know what I do. But this is how we're going to build our business together. I would love to know sort of how you feel. But like, what, what are the main elements that loan officers need to put into that relationship with their realtors? This is a great question. I mean, this itself could be an entire discussion. I think, and it's funny because I do a fair amount of thinking about this. And I recently just posted a question inside my Facebook group, which was asking what's the, one of the main challenges you have. And one of the responses from the L.O. was I just, I had a, I had a excellent realtor meeting. And I haven't heard anything since. Like, how do I convert? How do I, you know what I mean? Like, it's good. They've gone dark, so to speak. And so I had this person, this back and forth with this loan officer in the Facebook group asked her additional five questions. And I got some context. So I think first and foremost is there's, maybe this is just social and maybe it's the thread or the feed. Even to that example, we were talking about before we hit record of, it's so easy to now a day's vilify the real estate agent. 100% I mean, it's always been, but now it's even easier because people have this social media thing or whatever they think that's going to be their saving grace and holding grill. Even with all the potential of social media, and there are definitely some applicable activities people should be doing around that. But I don't think it's like get rid of the foundation of your house just because you got these new bright shiny lights that go on and make the pool a cool at night when it's all lit up and, oh, let me just focus on that and let me forget like, you know, what's this house built on? Right. So you and I were talking about data before in like real world and results. And like, this is where I think I've, I guess I've agreed to be not as sexy as some other people because like I'm still talking about realtors as should be a a significant pillar of your business. Many have under, again, I'll use that word under optimize that. But why do I say that? It's not because I'm friggin in love with realtors. If there was a more repeatable scalable low-cost high converting source aside from realtors, I would be talking about that as the number one thing. But there's not currently. So show me something else. So it's like I might have gone completely out the reservation with this answer. But I believe in business like you got to focus on what works, what's going to bring the business in, pay the bills, build my foundation, get a guarantee me X amount of transactions and opportunities per month. I still believe that that's realtors first and foremost number one. I'll stop. I totally agree with you. And then here comes, you know, the ugly truth. I can't tell you the number. And I'm sure you know of meetings I've had with mortgage professionals see sweet anybody in the last three years where they've gone, just hate my, I hate realtors. I don't want to work with them anymore. And I'm like, did you just, okay, well, that's a fascinating take. If you're not planning to go consumer direct, how exactly do you plan to create more business in the future? And then they say, oh, I mean, I know I had to work with my realtors. I just hate it. And I'm like, you know what, here's the thing about a relationship, right, a marriage, a best friendship, a family relationship. You are just as responsible for pouring into that relationship as your agent is. And y'all have been through the shit in the last three years, four years, five years for real estate agents. Good Lord. I mean, it really started at the beginning of 2020 for them. I don't understand what you're expecting from that realtor relationship. And if you're not going to say, hey, I want to clear up expectations and build our business together. How did I not show up for you in the right ways? And how can I show up for you in the right ways? And are you open to hearing my feedback on some of the things we've seen and establishing sort of a new path forward? Yeah, I love that. I love that. You said two key things in there. Expectations. It's the same thing I said back to that loan officer. I asked her, what did you expect? Most people leave the scene of that meeting with zero expectations, right, set, articulated, right, mapped out. A lot of like she said, you know, I felt like it was a good good meeting. I'm like, well, what made you feel like it was a good meeting? What the hell was your criteria for a good meeting that it felt could that you had a good conversation? It was a great coffee. Like, well, what means, you know what I'm saying? 100 percent. What is the criteria? But I also feel like even the pitch, right? And I mean, I don't know what you're I started in 2012 with this, right? So like understanding the pattern of how to work with realtor's, understanding what's important to realtor's when it comes to picking a lender, right? Changing sort of the norms we used to believe, like I have to give three lenders out to each of my people. And none of that was true. It was all just in how we presented as an industry to real estate agents. And when my loan officers used to go into these meetings, right, they used to love like a PowerPoint on that iPad and all the things. And they get into this meeting and they're talking to each other. And then it's like, hey, we like each other. Okay, cool. Bye. And my point was always like, my business, the last three minutes of that meeting are going to be the most important. And during those three minutes, you need to say, what is one deal that we can work on today? So I can show you the kind of value that I bring as a mortgage professional. How should we plan for the next 30 days to collaborate more? Would a meeting next week be the first smart move for us? And how can I bring value? I mean, I think the problem is it's the casualness of it all, right? You know, and I think back to, I'm just bringing up that conversation thread if I need to reference it. But I think back to some time I spent in corporate sales before getting into mortgage, like I was in the comm space and selling internet-related services. And that's actually how I got into mortgages when that whole thing imploded. So I got a call from a friend and said, hey, man, want to do subprime loans over the course. That sounds amazing. What the hell? Look at that wrong. Right. But think about like, you know, sales scripting and intentionality. And like you said, setting expectations in next steps and actually mapping too many people treat it too casual because I don't know what because it's so easy to get in front of this account, a realtor you're trying to sell versus in the Fortune 1000 world trying to sell that a Fortune 1000, it's not easy to get in front of them. It's not easy to get a response, right? They got a lot of people chomping at the bit for them. So you've got to be really structured and good with your process, both pre, during and post, like you just alluded to. Well, you know, you and I are both obviously marketing nerds. You know, in our world, we have ICPs, right? So we understand what our ideal customer profile is. For a mortgage originator, you should have, I don't know, a clear dozen of those written out, but at least three of them should be around your referral partners because if you don't have any data on this agent, if you go in this meeting blind, then you're doing exactly the opposite of what we tell you to do all the time with your customers, period, right? Look them up on social, get the data from Redder, from MMI, from somewhere, know what they're closing, know the things that you can do to change that trajectory and come prepared for that. You know, that's knowledge of your customer is so important. But if you're running after a realtor who closed three deals in 2024, right? And you're going to give them an hour of time and you're going to put all this work into it. Is that your ideal customer? I don't think it is. I think you should be very clear on your expectations, who they are, what you can bring to the table and really prepare yourself for the meeting. Instead of just being like, let's go grab coffee, here's your coffee. Tell me more about you. Yeah. Yeah. You also touched on there about approach, right? So I have this slide, which has a pyramid on it. And at the bottom of the pyramid is solicitor. And the next wrong is vendor. The next wrong is partner and peer. And the next very top of the pyramid is a mentor. And so if you're listening to this, ask yourself, what do you think the perception is of you from the real estate agents, your prospecting, as a solicitor and vendor or partner to peer? Now, you may think, oh, I'm a partner to peer because I have these great loan products and we can close in six minutes. And I can, here's what I know from working with realtors, or let me just ask you, ask the listener as well, when somebody leads with products at price, is that the definition of a partner? No. No. Right. That's a vendor. That's a solicitor. I'm here to sell you something. And I'm using my value proposition based on my products and price, which unfortunately, it's not very competitive at all. So then how are you going to get attention? How are you going to approach these realtors? It can't be just on products and price. No, I couldn't agree more. And I totally agree with everything you just said. Hey podcast family, are you tired of chasing down real estate agents for referrals, making cold calls and feeling like you're just not getting the results you deserve? What if in just 90 days you could double your agent referrals? And finally, lock in that consistent monthly income you've been striving for. My agent classes is the ultimate program designed to help you effortlessly attract, engage and convert real estate agents into top referral partners. We've done the hard work for you. 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If we looked at realtor relationships, much the same way that we do, let's say on match.com, right? We're swiping and we're seeing, what is it about this person that you're learning, that you understand, and that's going to make you this great partner? But that's all well and good because you can swipe to the cows come home and you can have all the coffees that you want and do all the things. But how are you really showing up, right? If you walk in and you're like, so I take phone calls from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Monday through Friday. So I have really clear boundaries and also you're mostly going to be working with my assistants and it's like, wait a second, what are you pitching me? If you go in and you're pitching, I want to help homeowners. I want to help people who want to buy homes and I want you to partner with me in that. What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? How can I help? And if you have something that you don't have, like, sort of dialed in, how can we collaborate to dial it in? You know, those are good. Let's back to approach, which is what's the premise of the reason for the meeting? You know, like you said, it's like, hey, like the script that's so common is like, hey, like, you know, I looked you up, you know, you're obviously a producing agent. I'd love to get here's the line that gets me. I'd love to get together and learn more about your business. You know, it's just like, that's the pick your brain line. I mean, anybody who's a decent realtor, right, is like, dude, I don't have time to tell you about my business. Is there something you want to offer to help me? Okay, then I'll be open to listening to that. But the fact that, what am I going to do just sit here and spew out my whole freaking life history to you? And well, it's like, I'd love to learn about your business. What is that? All that is is like, I'd love to sell you on. 100%. It's so, so true. And that's, you know, look, if I sit down and a meeting with someone and they say, hey, Kelly, you know, I've really admired you as a real estate agent over the last few years. You know, when you got that listing over in, you know, North Charlotte, I saw that you sold that in three days. I mean, that's incredible. And you went over value. I was really impressed by that. You know, what was, you know, what was the key to selling that house? And do you have something that are sitting on the market longer? You know, what do you do when those, when there's more challenging listings come up? It shows that you cared enough about that person that you're in front of to have actually done some work. Yeah, I love that you mentioned Redder and MMI, because that can give you some really intelligent talking points and demonstrate you've done your research. So you've got the social media, you know, reconnaissance is what I call it. And that's what I used to do all the time, is I would, and this is before Facebook kids, was like, look up what I could on the realtor, right, to get some intel. But nowadays it's so easy to get intelligence on people. Like you said, the amazing data on transactions are around, you know, price of, what is it, listing to sell, ratio, actions, type of clients you tend to work with, etc. You can show up with so much data and be like, so Kelly, if you don't mind, I did do a little bit of research before our meeting here today, just as preparation. And so I've learned a lot about you. I hope you feel that's okay that I show up prepared. What are you going to say? No, please come and just, you know, buy me coffee and then just try to get life. Like everyone's busy, man, no one has time to unless, at that stage of the relationship, okay, it's, you can't just, let's get together and rub elbows unless some context around, there's a connection or, you know, you both went to frickin, you know, fair amount high or something, and I don't know, right? But generally, people want to make good use of their time. You know, one of the things that I, I tried to concentrate on in my business and I don't know who came up with this philosophy, I write, give them credit, is, is this activity adding value to the future of my business? And if we're solving for that in a realtor loan office or meeting, are you adding value to the future of their business? Is this hour of their time going to be well spent? Because if you waste it, that's why you don't get follow-up. Yeah, and you better be prepared. Yeah, and you know, let's, let's backtrack a little bit because we're talking, you know, we are obviously, this is something we're both really passionate about. But for the, for the people who are out there and you're looking for these new relationships, these new collaborations with real estate agents, I, I always tell people, start at social, start on LinkedIn, start on Facebook, follow them on Instagram. Don't jump, don't dive in their DMs, start liking, commenting, seeing things, building them up, become a cheerleader, become an advocate. And then once you've established some rapport with that person, then really set your intentions in that message to reach out and say, I am not going to waste your time, but I do want to build your business. And I think I have some extraordinary ideas. I would love to present those to you and hear really what your pain points are and how we can grow together. Yeah, 100%. Love that. And I think that also speaks to why you do need to have a presence on social media of some kind. For sure, you better have some content because that's how people are judging you today to do in a business context of is, you know, the old saying is like, if I can't look you up, how do I know you? Oh, yes, right. And so I was going to find when I look you up, you know, it's funny, quick, quick side note. I had a, well, I was doing a conversation with somebody, I can't remember what it was, but anyway, this person, we're doing an audit of this person's Instagram channel channel. Did I just say channel? I did. Instagram profile. And this is a mortgage professional. And I'm browsing his Instagram. And on the bio, there's nothing about him being a mortgage professional in his content. There's nothing about being anything related to housing finance, anything at all. It's all the, you know, local stuff, the coffee shop, whatever, some dad stuff and things like that. And I'm like, I don't even know what you do. And he goes, well, my coach told me that I shouldn't be featuring any content about mortgages because no one wants to see that unless they're quote unquote in the market, right? And I'm like, all right, well, I disagree. Like fire your coach immediately. Yeah, because if I only have one shot to decide, do I want to follow you or not? You know, I'm not going to follow you because you got your dad stuff and all that kind of jazz because I don't know you. And you're not that good, quite honestly, with the dad genre of content, my friend, right? Whatever that. I mean, that's one of the funniest parts about sort of doing what we do, right? That we've seen so much, you know, we've seen noncompliance. We've seen crazy stuff. I had a realtor who was tagged in a picture when Facebook first came out of her in college, smoking out of an ET-bong. I mean, there's a originator wanted to work with us on social. I looked at us and he married a stripper. His entire feed is him and the stripper. And I'm like, I'm for it. I mean, I don't care what anyone does for a living, but like I just want to make sure we're both seeing your profile in the same way. I think for a lot of female realtors, that probably isn't going to be like, they're like, go to follow because this is not, you know, this is not exactly content for everybody. But it's so funny how many strategies people or feedback people will go to a conference or they'll read a book and all of a sudden it's like, because as we all know, in case you haven't noticed, every mortgage originator is now a content creator because they love to put that in their title. But if you're creating content, it can't make it a mix. You know, it's got to be professional. It's got to be personal. It's got to be fun and interesting because at the end of the day, you are in sales. Doing this, right? And we actually compared that side by side to another mortgage professional who, you know, had the bio, what is she's top 1% female originators in her state or something like that. But it was very clear on like, this is the bio. This is the resume. And she had the personality too, which is, you know, Lake bomb dog mom. No, no, no, but yeah, no, okay, I'm talking about Katie grind actually. Yeah, shout out Katie. But anyways, it's like, if I'm possibly in the market any time in the next year, for a mortgage, right, or buying a house or moving to the, whatever, well, now I know what you do instead of, huh, you know, dad shit and old freaking, whatever, puppies and dogs and, you know, and, and, and yes, people connect them, don't get me wrong, Kayla, if you're listening. Well, I love the dogs, but she has the other piece too is the point. She happens to be a mortgage professional who, who actually loves dogs as well. So now it's just it's not, oh, just dog lover cool. I'll never think of her for real estate or mortgage, right? Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, I'm in the business, apparently, of marketing really successful blondes who love dogs in this industry. So I mean, it's weird for me to say, but yeah, people look, people, people want to have digital intimacy with you. I mean, that's the end of it, right? I want to be able to have a relationship with you without having to put in a ton of work and energy into understanding what it is you do and who you are. And if we can find a way to, to establish sort of those, those connections with the right people, that's huge. But anyone, any loan officer can go onto Instagram and follow all of the realtors in their area and start slowly, but surely just showing up a little bit more, right? It doesn't have to be this enormous push to like totally change the game. But I would argue that it's kind of antiquated to think about, well, here's my 10 referral partners. And this is where I get my business. And I just sent out a video on Mondays telling them how the market's doing. And then when they get people, they sent them to me. I think the the reciprocity is one of the most key elements for the loan officers and the realtors moving forward because realtors are definitely going to be able to bring in, you know, buyers. But loan officers who are paying attention to their own database have referrals to get out. And there should be some expectation of that reciprocity. Yeah. And again, the presence on social media, that can be another source of business for you. It won't necessarily be as instantaneous as a quality realtor can be. But at least it will be a, you know, you're planting seeds. What you're doing. So make it clear. Neither of us are saying no to social media. We're just saying put it in the right context. Oh, no, I'm first of all, I'm all about B2B sales. But it's hard to be B2B like LinkedIn is perfect for B2B sales. But you don't have the kind of realtor engagement on LinkedIn that you will find on Facebook and Instagram. That's more industry to industry. And realtors are not spending a ton of time on LinkedIn. So if you're going to be doing anything, you have to be on Facebook and you got to be on Instagram. And you can say all day long that you got to be on TikTok. But you do and you don't like if you're really going to take it seriously. Yes. Okay. Because that means your pump and video content that people are going to love or you are like really comfortable and with being vulnerable enough to show people your whole world. You know, because that's really the only way to, in my humble opinion with video, to be successful in a video only platform. Instagram gives us the ability to find our audience pretty fast. If you want to go only videos, you have stories, you have reels. But you know, I do feel like it is sort of the middle ground between Facebook and TikTok, right? Like it gives you kind of a good space. Well, yeah. And you can find consumers there as well, right? So your content can be a double-sword, double-edged sword, they're a thing. So you're right. Go where your audience is. And we're talking a lot largely about realtors here today. So that would be Instagram Facebook. In, you know, I'll take your LinkedIn thing. I agree with that. But as you know, with LinkedIn, you can do some certain targeted outreages and things like that. But LinkedIn from what I'm seeing is people or LOs are using that more for financial advisors and different things like that. I was just talking to somebody last week who she's a reverse specialist and if you know Christina Harms. And so she uses LinkedIn to promote her webinars to financial advisors, right? Crushing it, doing really, really well. And they respond well to that. So comes back to who's your target market, right? And then how are you going to reach out? You know, if we can put like some little things into the world, right? I think that some of the things that we learn today is don't, I'm not asking everybody to niche their marketing. I'm truly not. But have an idea of what you're looking for for 2025, right? I want real estate agents who are doing four deals a month. I want to be in front of consumers who have an intent to buy in the next 12 months. I want to focus on first-time home buyers and this is how I'm going to do it. And really figure out who you want to market to and how you want to market to them. And I think if people spent a week on that, they would profoundly change their business. Yeah, it's an exercise I'm going through as well here at the end of the year, right? Evaluating my content strategy, who specifically am I trying to reach? Who's my avatar? Where are they? Like for me, I have not really focused on LinkedIn. It's been a place to just throw stuff and that's been my mistake. I've been too heavy. I think now re-evaluating my strategy on Instagram and Facebook because it was easy. That's where I'm hanging out. But now I'm actually re-evaluating it. Like I said, and I was actually intrigued by YouTube for a variety of different reasons. But actually just as of earlier today, when it comes to the podcast, I've decided to pull back and not necessarily make a huge investment into YouTube for a variety of reasons, which is too lengthy to get in here now in terms of like content and discoverability and all that kind of jazz. So for me, moving forward, you're going to see me a lot on LinkedIn. I will say this truly. One is that we are so desperate for thought leadership that isn't some horrendous chat DPT post. I don't know. In the ever evolving landscape of mortgage, it's an unleashing a robust strategy. I can't even, and I'm like, do you guys not see what you're doing? I don't even grasp it. It gets on my nerves so badly every day because I'm like, I'd rather you not put something up than put something up that you literally shoved into chat DPT, never personalized, and just didn't care about because it doesn't make you a thought leader. It makes you a tech follower. So if we're thinking about thought leadership, and I don't care that you want to rewrite or even write in chat DPT, not yourself out or all the long, but at least come back and say this, rewrite it to a certain extent, make it personal, make it come from your experience, throw some stuff in there. But as a thought leader, I would love to challenge the industry, but I know that that's silly because they don't like to be challenged. But I would love more people to start being authentic. Authentic not only in what they post, but in the opinions that they have, because we clearly all have ideas about the future, but it can't just be, we hire the best loan officers with the best talent because we have the best culture and the best leadership, and we're going to coach you into being, okay, be realistic with me about what the next six months of the world look like. You know, I think that's, I agree with all of that, and people should have a strategy. It's funny. I was watching an interview last night on YouTube with Tom Billu from Impact Theory. He has some amazing guests on there. It was a super deep dive conversation on AI, and one of the comments of the guest was of most of the business leaders can't tell you what the world is going to look like in the next five years. Maybe one year. That's how far out the forecast is going. I have prided myself since I entered, not before I entered this industry. I had one of the first four social media companies in the country. I feel like I understand from a marketing aspect, like where things go, and I kind of pride myself on this little crystal ball. I was, I was an annoying, outlying, disruptor my whole life in mortgage, but I was always like, yeah, but remember how a couple of years ago I told you, and I have zero idea of what's going to happen next. I couldn't be more incorrect right now. I thought we probably had like a three to five year window where technology would meet origination, and we would like be super collaborative in there. And then like five years from now, it likely wouldn't be something everybody was doing anymore. Now, because rates remain so high in 2024, I don't know where origination meets technology. I don't know where the race begins and ends, and I don't know if there are companies who are going to be smart enough to say we have to do this a different way, and we can't wait to catch up. Yeah. I think the one, and I know this sounds cliche, and it's one of those friggin soundbites, but I do still believe it. You know, that this business will still come down to connection and interaction with the human at some point, simply because of the size of the transaction, and all the issues that are involved with it. So, you know, take that to heart and know that that's going to be, I think, the last mile, as they say, like all the technology and everything can get you to a conversation like this here today, let's say it was just, you know, content, social ads, whatever, friggin trigger, all the stuff that can get you a conversation. At the end of the day, what really matters is the conversation that you have about person. I agree. I'm fascinated by this, you know, it's hard because I'm on, I technically am more on the technology side than I am on the origination side. There's no other way to really look at that for me, right? I've always looked at technology as being this foundational support for what we do in sales, but now I'm curious, because I look at it and I think if you tell someone, if you told someone that their mortgage costs them $15,000, they would be like, no, no, I just go to the bank and then I beg them for the money and then they pat me on the head and they give me the check and I'm like, thanks, bank, and I'm like, okay, so if people really understood how much it costs them and then you stick a step back and you say, hey, Jeff, you know, for $5,000, we can not only do it for you, we will have a 100% guarantee that you will have a fantastic transaction. You will have all of your questions answered and you will keep more money in your pocket. Well, now we're really getting somewhere, but we have, you know, the whole real estate too, real estate mortgage, it's all like, don't look behind the curtain, you know, just look at the odds, it's fine, but there also are realities, which is, you know, people are going to start figuring out how to manufacture loans for less and the people who are really smart are going to go, hey, we've got a database of a couple million people and we've got these great relationships. And so let's streamline this and make this really effective and be able to really give an amazing experience without having to create this enormous profit margin. Yeah, I know, right? You would think technology, but did I recently read that the cost of producing a loan has not come down? It's actually $11,000. Like correct in that. So, yes, but do companies really do mortgage companies solve for the main problem? Because I see people just talk about recruiting non-stop, right? Gotta get those big elbows in, gotta get those big elbows in, we're still recruiting, we're still hiring. Are you fixing? Well, that's just trying to throw numbers at the problem, right? A production and revenue. But I do think, yeah, technology will always bring efficiencies to the market. Just a matter of what does that look like? How long will it take? And really, who do you have to do it and how do you trust it and how do you have systems speak on your behalf? I mean, these are all enormous hurdles that do have to be solved, but it is, you know, I gave a presentation last week at MBA, not at MBA, but I was in a homebot. And I was trying to explain the one to many concepts, right? And it's not that people don't understand it. It's that you are going to have a lot more success in life if your audience is much larger, but the connection feels shorter. And so if you're always thinking about how is every single human being eventually going to do business with me and not this is, I'm going to go this way with this realtor and I'm going to go this way with this referral that I was sent, if you look at every person as having the capability of doing business with you in the future, how are you moving the needle on those relationships to create value in the future? Yeah, well said. Yeah, you know, there's a few big buckets right to close out. I know we got to go, but like the big buckets, we kind of danced around in this conversation, which is passed my database, optimized for that, quality referral partners, optimized for that, and then you got your consumer direct kind of holy grail thing. And I don't mean running ads at that point. Ads is like the last thing on the list, but consumer direct with your own kind of outreach and content. Yeah. And so, you know, working you optimize. Yeah, I think, I think, you know, anyone who is interested in these kind of things followed Jeff, you know, listen to the kinds of things that he is saying because you can trust that he's never going to pull the wool over your eyes. He's not interested in it, right? He's going to say the truth. He's going to say what you need to do and how you need to do it. And if I can challenge the listeners today to do something really special for yourself, spend some time figuring out who you really want to market to in 2025 and then put your little marketing hat on and decide how you want to show up. I think that'll change the game for a lot of people. We probably are still going to be in the weeds a bit in this industry for the next six months. Take that time to really develop into the person and the professional that you want to be. Yeah. Love that. We appreciate you joining me today. I just so adore your take on everything. And so I really appreciate you joining us today. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Okay, that's it for today's episode. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to remind you about my agent classes. You're proven system to double your agent referrals in just 90 days. Imagine never having to co-call again instead building real lasting relationships with top-producing agents who want to send you business with done for your presentations, marketing automation, weekly coaching. It's all designed to make growing your business easier and fun. So if you're ready to take control of your agent referrals and grow your income, visit mortgagemarketing.pro or check the link in the show notes. And while you're there, don't forget to check out the success stories from other mortgage pros who've already seen the incredible results. Thanks for listening and I'll see you on the next episode.