How to Optimize Your Client Experience to Get More Referrals

Hey, what's up listeners? Happy New Year. Welcome to 2024. My question for you is, are you ready? Hopefully you're not getting caught flat-footed. Here we are. I'm recording this on January 4th. And is your plan in place? Are your key activities clear, scheduled, mapped out? Do you have your milestones in place? Your method for tracking your progress? How do you know if you're on track? How do you know if you're actually making progress and not just being busy? Those are some of the kind of questions we talk about in our weekly mastermind and coaching calls for members of our my agent classes group. That and a lot more. If you're looking for some direction, if you're looking for accountability, maybe you'd want to consider becoming a member because we do a lot more than just go into our local market and teach Asian classes to attract instead of chase realtors to facilitate trust, to reduce the, how can I say, resistance and increase the conversations that lead to referrals. Case in point, another success story from one of our longtime members, Carmella. What is up? She just posted this yesterday. I mean, January 3rd. She's already winning. She's already creating momentum. She had a two-hour meeting with three top agents and she shared with them what's called our 90-day CMA. What that is, it's a video idea that takes to Google Earth along with a CMA on seller net sheet. We got it from a real to friend of mine in Florida. When he executed 72 CMAs over 90 days, he listed 11 million and sold 9 million of that. What we're doing is showing the agents how to take that copy of that idea and make it unique for their own purposes, for the unique to their own area, make the adjustments they want to make to it, which Carmella did. She said, we tweaked it and made it our own with some own, their own little custom marketing aspects to it. These three top agents left her office super excited. Great way to start the new year. Way to jump in. Way to create momentum. What are you waiting for? Learn more by going to mortgagemarketing.pro, schedule a call with me and let's have a conversation and see if this is a right fit for you. Okay, so before I introduce my special guest, I've got a question for you. Are you disappointed in the amount of referrals you get? Do you get a lot of Google reviews, online reviews, right? You're four or five stars, but that hasn't really equated to a lot of referrals, right? Coming from your past clients, maybe even coming from some of your referral partners. If you feel like that, today's conversation is for you because we are talking about the customer experience and how to identify why you may be getting online reviews. Your clients may be saying they love you, but they're not referring you. If you're not getting the amount of referrals that you want, something in the process is broken and we're going to unpack that for you here today with my special guest, Mike Seminary, who is the director of customer experience for the Strattmore group. What Mike does is he oversees the customer experience programs at Strattmore, collectively known as Mortgage EXP. What they do is they survey tens of thousands of buyers, people who have gone through a mortgage transaction, through their mortgage CXEX, mortgage wow and strategic X programs, surveys, benchmarking, reporting, reputation management, referral partner surveys, and more. If anybody's got the true metadata on what actually drives referrals, Mike and his team over at Strattmore group do. We are linking up some great resources in the show notes. This is where you want to definitely tap through and go to the show note links because Mike is sharing his seven commandments for optimizing the customer experience. Where is the breakdown? How do you identify it? Most importantly, how do you fix it? Do you have the courage to contact your past clients and not just get the warm fuzzies about how they loved you, but actually unpack and discover where it went wrong. If there's any quick, easy way to actually grow your business and win, it's through the wow factor experience. I know that term gets a lot of lip service, wow factor, but in today's conversation, you're going to hear exactly what that looks like and sounds like from your actual client experience side, not from your side. I know you're going to enjoy this episode. Check the links in the show notes. If you think this episode is great, which I know you will, please share it with somebody that you think we'll find it valuable too. Without further ado, let's get into this week's show. Mike, welcome to show. Thank you. Great to be here, Jeff. Great to connect with you. For those who may not be familiar with who you are, why don't you tell us what do you do and what are you all about? Yeah, so I've been in the market industry about 23 years now, but it's been split a little bit between origination. I started off as a loan officer work with Wells Fargo and citizens and a few other lenders. I eventually moved over to this tech side and was one of the early employees that philosophy and so helped kind of bring that company up. And then about seven, eight years ago, Stratmore reached out Stratmore for anyone who's unfamiliar is consulting firm. We do a lot of M&A, a lot of corporate strategy. Just a lot of, we're very well known for our data and our programs with the MBA and whatnot. Anyway, reached out and said, you have got a good background in both tech and mortgage. We need somebody to run our CX initiatives, our customer experience stuff. And so at the time, we had this this great, but it was about two or three years old at the time. So this was back in 2013. Garth Graham was one of the people who kind of pioneered this idea. Why aren't we doing more deeper research into the customer experience? Nobody's really doing it. I mean, you had JD Powers kind of doing their once a year thing and ad hoc things for a few lenders, but no one is really kind of going deep and asking a lot of questions every day on every loan. And so we thought there was a huge opportunity there, got into the space. And for a number of years, did really well in providing data. But we got to the point where lenders were not really doing anything with the data. They were just kind of sitting on a pile of great information and not operationalizing it. And so we've moved in the past few years into really creating digestible, actionable reporting where every single LLO, every single processor, all of their managers, everyone gets a personal view into how they're performing what their impact on the customer experience and a clear path forward to how they can improve. That's been a game changer. And I've been proud to kind of lead that effort as we roll out these new reports, these new products. Well, I love what you focus on, which is CX customer experience. And I think that you the fact that you opened up with the commentary around, there was data, there was information, but nobody was really doing much with it. And I actually kind of want to enter the conversations there because I know earlier this or last year end of 2023, I'm on your LinkedIn profile, we're going to link all this up in the show notes so people can follow you because you do put out some great content. But one of the things you pointed out on there is the question you asked was, what are you doing to create wow for your borrowers? And the challenge with that is to your point, kind of a moment ago, is like, we've heard that for a long time, right? Like the whole CX thing. We know we should be wowing our clients, but I don't really see that necessarily showing up in the real world, right? And so I'm curious if you maybe we'll start with like highlighting what would be some ways from your data, from your research, and we're going to continue to unpack this. But what would be some easy points of entry for people who are looking to enhance their customer experience? Yeah, I mean, the data that we have is almost counterintuitive because when you talk about wow, you think about, what did I go over and above and beyond? And there are examples of that like the LOs who go and find insurance quotes for their clients. That's not part of their job description, but they did it and it wowed the customer. But really what our data shows is that it's the process. It's the touch points, the communication points in the process that determine the wow or not wow. Basically, will that person be somebody who word of mouth unprompted, goes out and recommends you? So the, you know, just the other day I was reading two, two testimonials aside by side one said, this person answered all my questions, was a great person loved dealing with them. The other person said, this person was great, we loved them. But the back, you know, the back office didn't return my calls, asked for the same document multiple times. I never even got a list of what I needed to provide. They were just like, they looked like fools asking me three times for the same thing. And when you, when you put yourself in the LOs shoes, the LOs could say, well, that's not my fault. That's their job, their fault. But when you peel it back a little bit, it's like, you're the one losing the referral because that happened. So the LOs were trying to change the conversation from the LOs saying, this is not my fault, or this is not my responsibility to, oh my gosh, if this determines whether somebody refers business or not to me, it's in my best interest to keep a close eye on those things. And so all the data we have says, you, you know, you, we talk about NPS a lot, right? Well, you recommend. If you don't call somebody prior to closing and have a conversation with them about about the final numbers, NPS drops to 95 points. So one of the first things I will recommend to a lender is don't, don't just call the person and say, hey, do you want to go over those numbers and leave a voicemail and say, hey, call me if you have questions. That's not good enough. The, the habit, the new kind of lifestyle you need to lean into is, hey, Bar, this is really important that we do this. I need 15 minutes of your time. Let me know when we can schedule that and go over those numbers. And just making that a habit on everything alone you do, you'll never have somebody say they, they didn't get to go over the numbers. Right. If you have a, you know, checklist at the beginning going out, that's usually automated these days, right? But sometimes they fall into spam. Sometimes the bar whenever opens it. Sometimes their spouse opens it, but they don't. And so you have, what I see in best practice, right, is the LOs that do a really good job at this. They just make it a habit every time, you know, after they get the application in, that automated thing goes out, they call or text or say, hey, it's important that you see this email. Look for it. If you don't see it, let me know. I want to make sure you get it because it's a really important thing to make sure that you're delighted at the end. So you drop these little hints. You, you make habits, even in busy times, like people should not have a problem with it right now, right? But even in busy times, some of the, a lot of these things are doable if you start the habit now. Right. All right. So there's some good nuggets in there just to be clear for those listening, NPS refers to net promoter score. What that asks is the question is scale 1 to 10. How likely are you to recommend us, right, to friends or family? So that's kind of a metric for tracking. Is that correct? It is, it is. And it's, it's, it's the baseline of will you get repeat and referral business from the person, but it's not all about that NPS score either. It's, that's like the table stakes. That's what you have to focus on first a pristine process. You get the anything in the process goes wrong. And by the way, 55% of loans have some, one of the seven things we look at and the seven commandments go wrong. And it destroys your, your chance to referral or repeat business. And so the, the why has to be, the LOS have to start understanding. This is so important that this will determine whether I get referrals or not. Doesn't matter if I get a testimonial. And by the way, not, not just referrals. And I know you know this, but I'm just calling this to the attention of the listener. Referels are obviously great, but let's not forget about those online reviews, right? The Google business profile or wherever else. You're looking to get those five star, right? If you want to get that consumer direct bubbling up. Yeah, it's interesting. You bring that up because that's actually, I see a little bit of a misperception on those that we're kind of moving into a post online review phase. Like people still read online reviews, but they're not reading them to choose a lender. They're, they're reading them to verify or confirm that they're making a good choice. So the top, they're not filling top of funnel the way a lot of people used to think. So you have, and you have a lot of companies out there from, say, 2015 on who came on and said, Hey, if you put your name and your testimonies out in enough places, you'll just get flooded with leads. That never never really happened for most people. And so they started asking why? Well, the why is you can have somebody who loves you, but didn't have a great process. Same way, if you go to a restaurant, mediocre food, great waiter, you're going to go out of your way to talk about that restaurant in a good way, probably not, right? Just because they had a great waiter that you have to have a good process A to Z. If you want them unprompted. I keep saying unprompted, but the testimonial does not equal referral. The testimonial does not equal word of mouth referral. If you think about the experiences you've had, I would say a nice thing about the person at the counter at the store I went to. Sure. If you asked me for a testimonial, great. And my unprompted going to my friends and family saying, you wouldn't believe how great this story is. How great this experience was. There's a difference between the two. And the difference, but we've seen in the data is that when the process is great, those people unprompted go out because a market's loan, you don't go into a market's loan thinking it's going to be all butterflies and unicorns. You think you're expecting a little bit of pain, right? A little bit of resistance, anxiety, stress, and it's like going to a dentist. If I go to a dentist, and I get a, you know, I know it's going to be uncomfortable. If they make it smooth, if I get a clean bill of health, that's a win. Even though it was uncomfortable. So it's basically beating that baseline expectation is what we need to do. The expectation is they're going to keep coming after me for more documents. They're going to keep telling me, no, we're not approved yet. No, this isn't right. No, this, you know, you're expecting all that. If you kind of just remove some of those landmines, people are delighted. It's above their expectation. So it's multiple things going on here. There's a lot unpacking this conversation. Number one, it sounds like what you're saying is set the expectations clearly from the beginning. Meaning, I remember years ago, there's a, you may know of this guy, Joe Stump, real estate sales trainer in the area, Orange County, California, or sorry, you're in LA, but nearby. I'm from Orange County. I remember, Joe, back in the day, one of these scripts he used to use was taking on this metaphor of like getting, when you're on the plane as a passenger, you're a passenger. And I'm the captain. And there may be some turbulence along the way. However, if there's turbulence, I'm going to let you know about it. And I'm going to come over the loudspeaker and let you know it's time to put on your seat belt, the stain, your seat, and I'm still in charge. And I'm going to get you to our destination. And I thought that was a great representation of like this transaction setting the expectations. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we both know Sue Woodard and one of the things she always used to do as a loan officer back in the day was give people, this is the laundry list of things that could happen. And so if one of them did, she would say, hey, number 17, we talked about it. It happened on the list. Number 17. But that's, you know, when you set the expectation like that one of the best things that I think it all can do is, you know, a lot of the things we talk about in terms of great customer experience comes down to communication. Right. And I always like to talk also about habits because you're not going to change by setting goals and going after the goal. You're going to change by creating a lifestyle that's different. Thanks. You know, I tell them the cabits. There you go. So, but but one of the best things you can do is an LLO is say to the customer, give them the framework, say, this is how I plan to communicate with you. I want to know if it's okay with you. These three milestones are super important. I'm going to give you a phone call and we're going to have a conversation. I'm going to congratulate you with that we hit that milestone. And these things are not as important. They're just updates weekly update. Maybe I'm going to email you those. If I need something from you, I want to be able to text you because I need it quickly. How does that work for you? And then if you stick to that, you've already just given them so much peace of mind because the second a bar where calls you, you've already lost to get an update. Yeah. And so that's just one of the great habits you can do right from the start. Yeah. So you're saying kind of you reference a checklist, a process, a diagram, an infographic, right? But something that gives them that visual representation of this is our journey from loan app to closing. Yeah. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Now, I know for a fact a lot of people listening to this haven't thought through this to the degree, I think you're putting forth that people need to, meaning this can't just be let's let's half-ass this and let's throw something together, right? This needs to be really thoughtfully architected. Would you agree? I would, but I would add to it that there's almost 90% of loan officers that I talk to, they think they're already doing a great job. So that's the real barrier is that they think, how do they know though? Maybe it's somebody else. Maybe it's not me because my customers love me and they have no reference for if they're doing the right thing. So that's where many plug for the program I run in Stratmore's called Mortgage CX. But the idea is that you got to empower them with knowledge, remove the blind spots because you'll have an LLO who gets a 10 out of 10 rating for a borrower, but didn't get a call prior to closing. Did you got asked for the same doc twice? They thought the documentation was unreasonable because the processor never gave them the why for why they were asking for a document. So you miss those things and the LLO needs a visibility of that if anything's ever going to change. So our program, we go deep, we ask a lot of questions, we give those personal reports with a clear path forward for every single person, every LLO is going to see, well this is how I rank nationally, this is how far ahead or behind the company I am in this specific area like calling prior to closing, this is how I compared the national average, this is how I compared the best in class. So they have that gauge of, you know, it's pink on the report if they are behind the national average, so they know where to focus. So you have people kind of self-correcting and making changes, making habit changes and that ultimately brings everything up. Are you saying Stratmore CX, this is something that you provide for loan officers is some type of a program. By the way, obviously you and I didn't, you know, kind of prep for this ahead of time. This is something that loan officers or companies subscribe to to better identify their weak areas, their strong points, but actually are you collecting real client feedback? Yeah, we're doing, we're every single loan that closes for the clients that are part of the program. And you know, some of the clients said I won't name names but have been winners of JD Power in the past several years for customer satisfaction. So we have some great, I mean, some clients who this has worked really well for and they're riding it all the way. So yeah, so it's actually called mortgage CX. Okay. It's flown a little bit under the radar, you know, compared to JD Power because while we don't we don't do cars, we don't do, you know, a laundry list of things that they do. But yeah, it's, and it's something we don't heavily advertise. But the clients we work with are really top tier in the mortgage industry. So it's more at a company or enterprise level than individual LL, correct? It is. Yeah, it is. But I see it right now in the page. I'm going to link it up in the show notes for those who want to go check it out. Stratmoregroup.com forward slash mortgage CX looking at it right there. That's really cool. I think this is such an important part of differentiation and being relevant, right? And what popped into my mind earlier today and kind of thinking about our conversation is, yeah, I'm a big fan of process. And I think, you know, especially as an originator, it's all, you know, you're basically running your own business. Yes, you've got your ops team or whatever, whether that's broker, employee situation, whatever. And, you know, you know, I'm sure you've heard this before, the degree to which a loan officer can individually influence the internal process at a company to do. But I think there are ways to do that. I remember when I was an originator, whether that was taking good, awesome care of my processor, underwriter, ops, closer, whatever, like there's ways to grease the wheel a little bit. If you're looking to level up that customer experience. But I want to go back to the, like, let's go back to the wow thing that we opened it. And we kind of weave in the seven commandments and things like that because you kind of touched on this and the difference between an online review, like a Google review versus a wow factor experience. What you're saying is those are really two different things, right? They are. Yeah, they are. They, well, so I'll give you some stats here. So we do hundreds of thousands of surveys every year. So we, this pretty rich, deep data. We ask everybody to rate their loan officer on several different attributes. How caring were they? How well did they explain the process? How responsive were they? How knowledgeable were they? So, and we asked that of the processor too. When we roll those average scores up into, into kind of like an aggregate score for every loan officer, the loan officer scores on 100 point scale, 95 out of 100 is the average. It's the average. So everybody does a great job. If you're a loan officer, you don't do a great job. You're not going to be very long in that job, right? It's their job to be liked. It's their job to cobble and cradle the customer a little bit. A lot of them think it's their job to throw everybody else under the bus so they look good. But you know, that's the part of the job description is that you are to be liked by the customer. And so naturally, everybody, even if it's a tough experience, you go, you sit in the trenches with somebody for three months, you're going to bond with them, right? So anyway, everybody likes their loan officer. It doesn't make you unique. It's not a differentiator. Ergo, everybody gets testimonials. So I think two out of three surveys have testimonials on them. Almost everybody still has a 10 out of 10, you know, LOs. Rarely does somebody get a 9. But 9's and 10's are kind of the average for LOs. But the process is what actually determines. So you overlay that with NPS and it's a totally different story. Very interesting. So they're kind of like, some sins are forgiven because I like my loan officer so much. I would say the opposite actually. Sins are not forgiven for the company or for the loan officer. You always like your loan officer standard. But you're not going to go out out of your way to tell people what a great experience you had. So it's like, hey, man, I really love my LL. But that process sucks. I guess, you know, would never do that again. Exactly. It was painful. It was tough. It was hard. Instead of what you want them to say is it was easy. It was so great. You should do it with them. You ever had a bad experience? You all you need to get along? Go with them because it was so easy, so great. All right. Let me jump into your 7 Commandments. And I'm going to link this up and show this article you wrote because what I want to do is I want to just maybe bring to the surface a couple of things that LOs can, you know, that they can directly influence and maybe move to the top of the funnel for their attention. You mentioned a checklist, one of those things in the beginning, kind of like set the expectations for our flight path and things like that, right? What else would come up for you on that? Yeah. So I would say, I still got you. I mean, I'm here. You still got me. Sorry. My, my lights just came on. I told you. So we're being on the house. Yeah. So my thing keeps flickering. I hope you're able to edit this a little bit. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Let me put it back on the right screen then. I'm all for editing. So don't don't feel bad about that at all. Okay. Great. So remind me the question again. So you've referenced having a checklist at the beginning, right? To kind of set the stage in their flight path for what to expect. But what are some other areas where LOs can move certain balls forward, right? More easily than perhaps some others. Yeah. I think one of the big ones that comes up is asked for the same document multiple times. And I think the national averages of around 28 to 30% for that. So it's happening on a lot of loans. Now you have people kind of dismiss that one because, well, it's a multiple, you know, the loan took a little longer. We had to get a refreshed document or we had to ask for page 8 of the bank statement or whatever. But but when you look at that, even, you know, you overlaid out again with NPS, people are annoyed by it. No, it's not something that people don't care about it. They do care about it. It's about a 50 point drop in NPS when that happens. So one of the things that should just become a habit is the first conversation you have with people just say, Hey, these things usually take more than a month and we need a month's worth of the pay stub. So as you get your next one, just plan on giving it to me when you get your next based up. If you're going to give me a bank statement and it's not automated or whatever, make sure that all pages, even blank pages are included. So in that case, if somebody asks again for a refresh or for page 8, you've already asked them. And so they're definitely not holding that against you. So that takes care of that piece of it. But one of the big ones where people trip up here is with the portals. So the LOs who like to really hand hold white glove the process, they'll say, no, just send it to me. I'll upload it to the portal. Don't worry about it. And they given the document. LOs sits on it for two days. The borrower gets an automated email saying, Hey, we haven't gotten this and all of a sudden they're having a bad experience. Exactly. So that happens a lot. But the 30%, I mean, part of it is just poor organization, you know, bad handoffs from the LO to the processing team. The processing team, you know, when it 2021, it was especially bad, right? Because everybody was just running around like a chicken with their head cut off. Couldn't keep things organized. But that's a big one. Dot collection and communication really a lot of these things revolve around. The one that's surprised to me lately is the timeframe expectations. So you would think in a market like we're in, that wouldn't even be on the radar because everybody has got one loan at a time. But I think what's happened is partly LOs are scrapping for business. They're not turning down loans. They're trying to make people happy. Oh, can you get this done in 15 days? Sure. Sure. I can. Fingers crossed. And in the fulfillment teams, I've talked to some of them. They get the loans and they're like, wait a second. This is a hairy deal. How are we going to close it so quickly? So the timeframe expectations always buy yourself some time. Always pad that under, under promise over deliver. Yeah, but man, the realtors pressuring me like that's my, you see people posting closed in eight days, you know, all that pressure. It is tough. A lot of advertising out there too is same day approval and all that kind of stuff. How do you compete with that, right? I mean, I think it's just having the more communicative you are, the more you can get the borrower on your side early, emotionally, all of that, the more they'll just stick with you. Well, I'm reading one of your little finer points here on your seven commandments, which again, we'll link up. But when it goes, when it goes wrong, like close, not closing an expected timeframe, this is such a classic dealt with multiple people who are not on the same page. Like that must happen. I don't know if you have data on what percentage of loans that happens on. I don't have it's a lot. Yeah. Right. It was back to communication. It comes back to your internal process. And I'm thinking of some of the people that I know that have been on the show that I've interviewed who have very well structured, well-defined processes. Those things that it's not like it's never done, right? You're always looking to refine and enhance and gather that customer feedback to find the holes. And you've got to be willing to take some of the bad news, right? Yeah. I mean, I did, I did alone years ago, but it was with rocket, right? One of the best ones out there. And I've got passed around to five different people, which is kind of their thing. It's a little more factory line, but people were going on vacation, people were not calling me back. And it was just, it was not a great experience because of that, you know, not to throw them under the bus here, but it's an example of you can have a great company with great procedures and still have a bad experience. And so I will probably not do along with them again because of that. Would you be willing to pay a slightly higher price because of that bad experience? I think, you know, knowing what I know, I don't even go to lenders that don't have great customer experiences. So I would be, so when I whittle it down, people sometimes ask me, who should I do along with? Well, I have all the data. So I could tell you these are the top ones who you're most likely to have a good experience with, choose between them. So in that sense, because I wouldn't rate shop 15 lenders to get the best rate. I would look at the best, you know, and this is a great example. This is how people shop the same thing with cars. You don't go online and say, what's the best car? You kind of have an idea, you have to friends family, you see it on the road, you then narrow it down and choose between the three. And that's how people use reviews too, is they go and look at the three top choices and they're like, well, this is the person I felt best with in my conversation. Because I think when it comes to rate, until you get the application, till they know your credit score, till you do all that stuff, nobody's promising you a rate that they can promise, until they know all that stuff. So I think it's tough to, when we ask people, why do you choose your lender, guess what percentage say rate shop? You know, best rate, best interest rate is 2%. What do they usually say? They say, I knew them from a previous relationship. I knew the L.O. I was referred by a realtor. I was referred by a friend. That makes up 90% right there. Best interest rate, best programs, testimonials about 3%. If I can, I want to pause there a second on that. I don't know if you've got any data on this, but obviously in this new world, we're in this digital social media space. I'm wondering if you have any insights or data back to that exact point of how I chose my lender. I knew them, I trusted them. I was referred by the real estate agent. Do you have any visibility or just commentary around online presence, personal brand, kind of stuff today? Based on that data that I just mentioned, it's really low. Now, I want to be clear here. I want to say testimonials have no value because they do. 40 to 50% of people read the testimonial to confirm their choice. And if you're a loan officer and you're trying to go out for getting new realtors, it doesn't hurt to have testimonials to wave in front of them and say, here's why you should work with me. That's always a good thing. But the value is pretty much limited to that. They're not filling your top of funnel. Your personal brand is table stakes in the sense that if realtor gives your name out and they look you up and they can't find you, that's a red flag. You got to have a presence. And like I said, 90% of reviews are really good reviews. Probably 98% of reviews are good reviews because the testimonies are good. Good testimonies. So it's hard to find anything bad about a loan officer. So are you going to go and say, well, this person has 225 reviews. This person has 198 reviews. Am I going to pick the one with more reviews? The one with the picture I like better? The one I actually talked to them both and how to better feel for them? Do I go back to my realtor and say, well, which one do you like better? That's how those decisions end up being made. It's not who has a better online presence because most people have an online presence today. It's not a differentiator. And most people have really high star reviews. So it becomes less important in terms of making a choice than just saying, hey, it's time for me to make a choice. Who do you really recommend? Yeah. Most realtor's do that. Right. It reminds me of a study that I read from Thousand Walk Consulting where they had a small sample size of the audience, the interviewed, and it was all about directing the financing on the transaction. And it showed that about half of the time, even though the buyer showed up with a pre-approval from another lender, they went with the realtor's recommendation. That's how it happens in the real world. It is. It's even more pronounced in first time on buyers, too, because they're really reliant on those recommendations. I'll send you graphs on both of those. I don't know if you have a way to show them on this, but that's, it's very interesting. Well, this is just interesting, also because of a conversation I had earlier today. And in the last few minutes we have, maybe we'll geek out on this for a second, is clearly there's this whole movement of building your personal brand, having content, video content, et cetera, being a modern next-gen mortgage originator. And it's interesting to talk to somebody like you, though, who has data from thousands of originations of what was the primary source of you choosing your lender. And you're saying that in the ranking of online videos, content, whatever, even though there are success stories, and I've had them on this, numbers-wise, collectively, that's still single digits. Yeah. I mean, those are the unicorns. They exist. You're right. They do exist. People, there are people who say, I get most of my business from Google Location Search. They're really rare. Those people are really rare. Most of the time, and if you think about it, it passes the sniff test of, okay, I'm going out to buy a pair of shoes and I need recommendations. I'll go read reviews on different pairs of shoes, right? But if I'm going to spend more money, then I have my entire life on something. Sure. That makes me a little more gun shy. Like, I don't want to pull the trigger unless I'm for sure, for sure. And then I'm going to talk to anybody I know who I trust. And so it's the trusted relationships on the big ticket purchases that you end up believing in going with. That's funny. I'm thinking of a couple of people we could have on and like have a debate about this, right? Well, I mean, I feel like the debate will be anecdotal versus metadata. And I have the metadata and people will come on and be like, no, that's not my experience. But in both are true, right? That's actually the best point, both are true. Let me if I real quick, then because I know you have a pretty deep connection into the industry and you see a broad section as well. I'm sorry to throw this curveball at you, but I'm curious if you have any commentary around what the buyer experience will be regards to the NAR lawsuit and how that might play a role. Probably no comment would be the best. Too early to tell. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Okay, we can leave it at that. It's not even settled yet, but we still have some implications for sure. Yeah, yeah. I have personal thoughts, but probably not best to share them at this stage. Oh, it's always a curveball. And like, you don't have to it's America, right? So that's awesome. Well, look at we could keep talking forever about CX. And I know you've got a lot going on today and you've made time from your busy schedule to be available for this conversation. What I wanted to do was bring this to the surface, especially at this time of the year, like you said, there's some bandwidth right now. You might want to look at your processes and procedures for customer experience and wow factor. You've got some great suggestions here. I'm going to link up your seven commandments in the in the show notes. Also, the link directly to the Stratmore Mortgage CX. Any other places we want to direct people? LinkedIn profile or what? Well, you know, I do a monthly article that's called the monthly CX tip. And that's on the Stratmore website. So if you're interested in that, you can either reach me at mic.semonariatstratmoregroup.com and just say add me to the list. But we've got a lot of people on there that are enjoying those those monthly articles. So we'd love to have you. Yeah, I mean, look at it's, you know, based on what we all know, some of the things you talk through here today, like the old quote of like, it's easy to win, right? I mean, I don't want to be cliche or whatnot, but let's just face it. One of the easier ways to win is having a wow factor experience, you know? Yeah. So why not? And the and the wild begins with the process. It's so counterintuitive to most people because every most elbows say, I'm the center of the universe. I'm the king of the world. And what I do affects whether, you know, only what I do will affect that person's referral business. And it's it expands way greater than that. It's the process that that that determines everything. I would love to see this for the list of people listening right now. All your past 10 or 20 clients and just ask them, okay, I know you love me, but how is the process? Where were the pain points? Like, have the courage. And maybe you're not the best person. Oh, but I that would be an interesting exercise. I would, you could even go a little bit further and say, I, I know you love me. And what I found is that people who love me, but didn't have a great process in some area, didn't go out of their way to just talk about how great it was for everybody. And so I want to uncover what could have been what not been. And if you say, what could have been better, most people say, I don't know what could have been better, but there are things that I want to be doing or maybe throw some ideas at them or something. This is what I'm planning on doing. What that have wowed you? Would that have made a difference? Would that have just like? Yeah. And it also plants an idea in their mind, oh, but that they haven't given you anybody. They haven't they haven't referred anybody, but it doesn't come out and say it. I think a good place to start on that once again is the Seven Commandments article, which by now you should have already tapped on that link. And go to that because that'll give some entry points of proposing those topics to those those clients that you interview. So my thanks so much appreciate it. Yeah, pleasure. Yeah, let's stay in touch listeners. You know what to do if you found this episode useful, please share it with others and like it. And we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now. 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