How to Qualify More Borrowers With Non-QM Loans

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Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Hey, hey, members, what's up, Jeff? It's him for host of Mortgage Marketing Radio Podcast. Welcome to this episode. Glad you're here. Glad you're tuning in. And not sure when you're listening to this, but I'm recording this right after the Thanksgiving holiday. So once again, during this time of the season where the focus is on appreciation, gratitude, and giving thanks. Once again, I'm giving thanks for you, the listener, for being here. Appreciate you tuning in. We'd love to get to know you a little bit better. And if you haven't yet joined our private Facebook group, just for podcast listeners, please check it out. It's over on Facebook. You go to Facebook and you type in, it's my keyboard sound. You type in to the search bar Facebook, Mortgage Marketing Radio, and you should find the private group. There will be a few questions for you to answer just because we're trying to make sure we don't want any trolls. We don't want vendors trying to pitch products and stuff like that. We want to keep it a safe, positive, supportive place to have an ongoing conversation and dialogue about helping you achieve your goals that you have in your mortgage business. So come on over to Facebook, type in Mortgage Marketing Radio. Write us over there and I'm going to be going live in the next couple of weeks. Special sessions just for podcast listeners, only in that Facebook group, ask me anything's extra bonus content just because what the heck, if I'm here talking about surviving and thriving the digital real estate disruption and being a modern mortgage originator, a hybrid loan officer, then I better be practicing what I'm preaching and using the platforms and tools. So that's one way that I'm going to be doing that. So Facebook, check me out over there. Okay, hey, other quick reminder to you before I get into this week's special episode is I got an email the other day from one of our members in our pro membership and I just wanted to share her comment and her name is Carrie. So Carrie, if you're listening, shout out to you. Carrie says as a result of the classes that we've been providing for her that she's been teaching in her local market in person and over zoom. I'm talking about agent classes where she, you know, several times a month will host a zoom and she'll invite agents through email and SMS text messaging and other things she does and she'll get agents who show up for her classes. And we provide her the content for all of that, the PowerPoint, the speaker notes, what to say, the promotional materials and images, the flyers, the emails, et cetera, et cetera. And she's been doing a great job. She's been working her tail off. She's just now roughly at her first year in the business, but the other day she mentioned that 40% of her production this year has come exclusively from the classes. So shout out to you, Carrie, for taking action and being consistent because you've done the work. So kudos to you. And so that's just one example. One more about what are, what are these done for you turn key classes that you're providing for loan officers to be able to get in front of agents in person and virtually to drive conversations that leads to referrals, well, go check it out, mortgagemarketing.pro. You can learn more there. There's a brief video I put up and see what we're doing and see what other people are saying. Mortgagemarketing.pro. All right. So let's talk about my special guest this week. You know, I did a poll in the Facebook group just for podcast listeners and I asked them who would like a podcast talking about non-QM loans and the overwhelming responses were yes, I would like to learn more about non-QM loans. And so that's what this episode here is today. My special guest is Tom Hutchins. He is the executive vice president of production for Angel Oak Mortgage Solutions, who is a large player when it comes to non-conforming products. And if you're not familiar with these, you need to get familiar with them because these non-QM products offer consumers unique flexibility. Many of you already know that every borrower is in cookie cutter, right? That not every borrower is just, you know, a paper, right, as we used to say back in the day, right? Nowadays you've got the gig economy, the side hustle economy, the 1099 income earner, the self-employed person who's writing down a lot on their taxes, right? And how do you get those people? Where do you find a place for them? And this is whether you're at a broker, you're doing correspondent or whatnot, even if you're at a direct lender, there's still a possibility for you to play in this space of non-QM. So Angel Oak has done some incredible things when it comes to their platform and their technology and streamlined operations. And you know, they're known for quick response times and their communication process and definitely one of the more well-respected non-QM providers in there. And I think why this conversation is useful for you is, again, who is the future borrower? It isn't the person who's been working at the factory for 20, 30 years, right? It isn't person necessarily who's got that just straight up clean W2 income and tax returns, right? It's something that's non-conventional, non-conforming. And that's what Angel Oak specializes in. And I think you'll learn a lot about how to address that type of borrower. And think about the unique niches that you could have as well, serving those underserved, right? Non-conforming people out there in the new economy that we're facing. If you help them solve the problem of qualifying for a mortgage, well, you can write your own ticket. So without further ado, let's get into this week's show. Tom Hutchins, welcome to the show. Hey, great. Jeff, great to be here. Thank you. You know you're very busy. Thanks for making time. As you know from just a moment ago, I put it out to my audience. My listeners, hey guys, would you like to have a conversation about non-QM loans and the overall resounding response was yes. So glad to have you here. For those listening, why don't you just share your kind of brief background, who are you, what do you do? Yeah, sure. Again, thanks for having me, Jeff. Happy to be on. Always make time to talk about non-QM. So I have been with Angel Oak about eight years now. We started and I'll give you some history about Angel Oak, but I myself personally have been in the mortgage space since the late 90s, primarily in the wholesale and correspondent channels and often a big portion of that working in the non-agency space, which is where Angel Oak participates as well. I was brought on really kind of phase one at Angel Oak, really what Angel Oak was or started as is an asset manager in the primarily in the residential mortgage vac security space. And they saw and we saw an opportunity after the financial crisis that we talked about the pendulum, pre-crisis, the 040506, the lending standards were way too aggressive and too far to one side. And then the financial crisis struck and the pendulum swung very far to the other side. And really just it created an opportunity because it locked a lot of people out of their ability to get alone. And post-crisis up until really until we kind of started this space and a couple others. If you couldn't get a fanny or Freddie or FHA or VA loan, maybe a little bit of prime jumbo, but there just were not many lending options. And so the non-QM space was born and Angel Oak was born to just kind of fill a need in the market. And that's what we've been doing pretty well over the years. Yeah. Fantastic. And I was around in those days. I started as an originator in 2003 and went through all the way to 2010, you know. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was crazy, crazy times for sure. So for the end again, I apologize if this is overly simplistic. But how would you describe or define what a non-qualified mortgage is? You know, I would call it really, in fact, I prefer, I mentioned it already, as a non-agency because that's really the space. It's if it wouldn't qualify for agency or prime jumbo or government financing, then it kind of falls out. That's the QM box. So anything outside of that box is non-QM slash non-agency. And that's the market that we just feel there's lots of borrowers. And we can talk more about the gig economy and the things that are happening just economically. We feel like that space not only has it been underserved, but that the number of borrowers following into that space is growing tremendously and we've seen it grow over the years. Yeah. So you mentioned the gig economy, self-employed, you know, the non-traditional income earner investors, right? These people who don't typically have your W2 income, is that really who these loans are suited for? You know, you hit on two of the categories, Jeff, the two, there's three, in my mind, there's three high, you know, large overreaching categories. First, is that self-employed borrower? And we can talk as much detail as you'd like about that. But those are the borrowers that, you know, the Fannie Guidelines say tax returns, two years tax returns, that net number, that's it. No questions asked. That's the rule. And, you know, we just have a belief that the tax code and your ability to repay a mortgage are not necessarily one in the same. And, you know, and so that's the biggest piece of the non-cum business today. Is that self-employed borrower makes up roughly, I'd say, 65% of the non-cum space. So that, you know, what remains is that investor, the professional investor. You know, the Dodd-Frank rule actually, it came out in 2014, January 2014. And that really kind of defined this QM and non-cum. And a big piece of QM is that a borrower has to have an ability to repay. But that does not apply to non-owner occupied properties. So we've been able as a private capital bring, private capital over the market. We and others have had some flexibility on these non-owner occupied loans. And then the third, so I don't get too deep into any one category right now. But the third is probably what you remember from when you were originating. It's more of the credit challenge borrowers. It's not an income issue. It's simply just a credit or we refer to it even as a life event. You know, when we started this in 2013 and 2014, there were a lot of people that had gone through the foreclosure through the financial crisis. And so, you know, Fanny and Prime Jumbo, they had, you know, very strict rules. You had a five or seven year waiting period. And that was it. If you hadn't waited that long, you just were automatically just qualified. And so, and now we believe with things that have happened economically through COVID, that category is likely going to see some more opportunity. You know, some borrowers have been deemed through the shutdowns and everything else at COVID. So, so many of the other problems at COVID is because I'd brought to challenge us. Hmm. So, I'm reading a quote here from earlier this year that the projected volume for non-QM is estimated to reach 200 to 300 billion annually over the next few years. Why do you think that is? Well, you know, a lot of it is the size of the market. Just, you know, now, now the mortgage space is a two and a half to three trillion dollar annual business. You know, 2020, it was a four trillion dollar business because of, you know, record low rates and three finances that like we've never seen before. But, you know, two and a half trillion market. And we've really always considered this about a 10% piece of the market. And that's for us. That's where those projections come from. That's also looking at historical data. Prior to you said you got into business in 2003, we look at 2000 to 2002 timeframe. And that's when guidelines and the non-agency space were comparable to non-QM guidelines today. And that's what the business was. It was about 10%. When it got off the rails in 0506, non-agency was actually bigger than agency. It was about 60% of the market. And, you know, everybody remembers it was because guidelines and different different things going on in the market allowed it to grow that big. But we think 10% is really the right number where we can, you know, find those borrowers that are not going to qualify and then are for an agency loan. But they are good, they are good credit risks. They are good borrowers. They just aren't going to fit in the bucket. No, you know, known as the agency guidelines here. So, for a loan officer listening to this, how, if they, you know, clearly you, you know, we recognize the need for self-employed, for example, non-owner, right, that's a pretty cool thing as well. How does a loan officer then engage with Angel Oak? Like, let's say they're hearing this and they're like, hey, man, I got some clients who would fit that. You know what I mean, bring me down the street. Oh, well, you know, one takeaway I'd love your listeners to have is just our website. It's, it's Angel Oak MS, Angel Oak Mortgage Solutions, Angel Oak MS.com. And actually, you know, all the resources to get started in non-QM or right there on the website and the first place I would start is find your AE. And we have a map and you just click on the state you're in and all of our AE's covering that territory pop up. And you can just reach out to any of them and that that somebody will get back to you very quickly so that we can start the conversation and the education on how to get going in this non-QM states. Okay. Okay, so that'd be the place that they start right there and then they have you guys obviously, you know, have account executives that serve different regions. Yeah, yes, we have, we're licensed in 45 states. We have AE's covering all of those states, most of them local, certainly in the larger markets across the US. And really, they're the experts. I mean, the reason our business has grown as much as it has has and we've had as much success as our AE's are truly experts in the non-QM space. It's really, it's all we do all day every day and it's all we've done since 2013. So, you know, we've gotten pretty good at it. For sure, yeah. And by the way, that's interesting. Obviously, we know there's there's a few players in the non-QM space. So I'll give you the opportunity to hear, you know, to differentiate angel oak if people are considering their options. Should they have more than one non-QM provider in their in their roster or what do you say to that? Well, you know, that is fine. You know, through a wholesale lender, I would say we should absolutely be one of your first options just because expertise does matter. We are seeing more people kind of dipping their toes in the non-QM and I mean, we see new companies that didn't offer non-QM last week. Now, you know, they're, they're saying, hey, come to us. We're the non-QM expert and I just believe it takes more than just, you know, putting a product together and guidelines and then matrix and saying, okay, we do non-QM. You know, all of these loans in the non-QM space, every single one of them is manually underwritten. And for those big agency lenders who work through DU, there's really not a lot of manual underwriting that goes on at all. And so those lenders trying to now do non-QM, it's just, it's a very different way of doing business. It's, you know, we call our loans storied loans and we have, we have underwriters that they're, they're experienced at making credit decisions and making good good loans to good borrowers. And then the second piece, Jeff, that I can't, you know, not mention is that we also securitize every loan we originate ourselves under the angel oak umbrella through our partners over angel oak capital. And that's what we've been doing. We issued our first non-QM securitization in 2015. So, you know, we're not someone that has to get approval from investors or different, you know, different people in the mix. We make all the decisions ourselves. We make the guidelines and we make exceptions to our guidelines that we're comfortable making and we don't need anyone else to approve them. And so again, it kind of just speaks to the angel oak brand and the angel oak expertise. We're, you know, I like to say we're kind of, we're, we're main street all the way to Wall Street and that's, that's who we are. We're in the streets working with brokers and, and won't officers all over the country, but then we also are on Wall Street securitizing this with private investors and private capital. So, obviously you guys are bullish on the future for non-QM simply because of what's, you know, used the word earlier, which I love gig economy. I mean, 10 years from now, right? I'm sure you guys are having conversations about what's what's the workforce going to look like, right? 10 years from now. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, in fact, I think it's happening so much faster than we even thought because of COVID. We're in such an odd economy right now that people are more job openings ever and yet high unemployment. And I think it's a lot of people probably more than likely rethinking their career paths and maybe perhaps reinventing themselves. And, you know, it's, it's actually pretty easy to come a self-employed person these days. You go online and form an LLC and be in business, open up shop the next day. And so, yes, we believe that market is vastly underserved and is, is poised to grow tremendously. We saw a new, new business applications in 2020 were the highest in history. And we, you know, just kind of believe that that trend is not just a one-year COVID phenomenon. We think that's where the world is headed. Yeah. And to that point as well, I saw earlier today, I forget the exact number, but it was in the millions of how many people quit their job. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to go do this a different way. You know, they might be doing the same thing, but they're doing it for themselves or, you know, whatever their story is. But, you know, that's, that's why we're bullish on it. We're also bullish on it because we've proven that these are good loans. You know, one of the, we do still have to talk a little bit about misconceptions and people think this is subprime 2.0. And that's, you know, very far from the truth. We have to, I mentioned it already, but on every owner occupied in second home transaction we do, we have to have a documented ability to repay for each and every borrower. And that's, if you remember subprime 2.0, the majority of the loans were stated in come or no income. And it makes a big difference when we actually take a peak and dive into someone's cash flow even for the business, you know, these self-employed business bank statement borrowers. We're looking at their cash flow over a 12 month or 24 month period. So we, we are extremely good at identifying whether or not they're going to have the ability to repay our mortgage. Yeah. That's an interesting point that you've made there. You know, because we hear the examples so much in the field of, you know, I've got this self-employed person, you know, they've got a million bucks in the bank. Obviously they're writing down their income on tax returns and stuff like that. So is that where you guys come in and you look at the whole picture instead of, you know, having to fit in this whole box and you'll look at like the assets on hand, for example, as opposed to only the young. Absolutely. You know, we certainly ability repay a big piece of that is their cash flow. And that's really what we're looking at, you know, this, the bar, the example you just gave the person that's got a million dollars their tax returns might say because they have a good account who, you know, just takes advantage of the tax code. You know, that's one of the, one of the reasons people choose to be self-employed is there are a lot of tax advantages. And, you know, that million dollar bar or might only show they make $75,000 to the IRS to do the tax codes. So they're not going to be able to buy that million dollar home or $2 million home. And so yes, we look at the cash flow of either their business account or their personal account over 12 months or 24 months. And then, you know, we, you know, we look at the business, we look at doing analysis and come up with a reasonable expense factor for that business. And that's what we use it as income, but, you know, a big piece of what you just said is that we, we're just looking at more factors. We're looking at, you know, what else is going on with this bar or have they, the person that wants to buy a $1.5 million house or one and a half million dollar mortgage. Have they ever had a mortgage like that? So, you know, a lot of times these people come and they've had a million dollar mortgage and they're just stepping it up a little or, you know, that, that goes into it. On the other hand, if it's somebody who's been renting and paying $1,000 a month, you know, it's not just, you know, it's not a whole ability to repay, it's experience and pay. And we, we see high quality borrowers, you know, this isn't, we're not looking at our average fight going on our bank statement loan is over 740 Jeff. So, these are a paper borrowers whose, you know, primary challenge is their tax returns and usually it's their only challenge. It's their tax returns. Sure, right. Because like you said, they're taking advantage of legal tax code and trying to minimize their tax exposure. Absolutely. It wouldn't do that, right? Hopefully. No doubt. Hey, which of your products, then, I'm looking at some of them on your website, right? Your platinum jump portfolio select. Exactly. Which ones do you want to highlight or are you most like a big fan of? Well, I mean, it already talked enough, you know, quite a bit about the bank statement loan that that's the number one opportunity. And I would say for, you know, your loan officers that have not participated in non-QM, that's where I would say you should start there. Start talking about self employed borrowers and getting and becoming a self employed originating expert because that is what the market needs. There's, you know, we've kind of trained even our real estate partners to, you know, especially soon after the financial crisis, they did a lot of reading out of potential buyers because they realize, yes, the guidelines to get mortgages are so tight. I don't want to spend my time with these potential buyers if they can't get alone. So there's been a lot of years of just pre screening and really screening people out of the market. And so what we say is as a, you know, originator, learn a little bit about these bank statement loans will help you will teach you will even have conversations. We go on the road and give presentations to realtors on behalf of our originators. So, I mean, you know, there's, there's just a lot of things that we can do to help an originator grow their business, you know, in a market that's really kind of challenged now with, with all the steep decline and refinances that are being predicted for 2022. Yeah, exactly. And you also just, just jumping out at me, you have, you've got the 1099 income loan. It's a little bit different than the bank statement, but that goes to what we had said earlier about freelancers, contractors, all that stuff, more appropriate. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's similar enough to the bank statement loan. We just don't have to look at the 12 months. We just look at the 1099. It's already summarized for us. Right. Right. Very interesting. So, you know, go ahead. Yeah. So, so, so what's got you excited for the coming year? I mean, what's interesting is you remember just a few years ago, right? There was this margin compression thing happening. Right. And that seems to be, I don't know, that's like everybody's forgot, because we're all drunk on this, you know, recent last 18. I hear. Any thoughts on like, you know, what you see coming around or what you guys are preparing to do product wise, perhaps? You know, there's, there's the products right now, Jeff, it's not, there's not going to be a lot of, you know, bells and whistles at it on. We make enhancements and improvements. Basically, what we do is we see that we're making a lot of exceptions and they're all very similar exceptions. We just change the guideline so that it's no longer an exception. So, you know, we do continue to kind of expand the box where it makes sense. Yeah. But, you know, you talked about margin compression and things like that. The nice thing about non-QM, and this is something that our originator partners have told us over the years, is that it's such a different cell, if you will, because, you know, a lot of originators are used to competing on one thing. And you know what that one thing is, right? It's great. And the agency world, that's kind of all there is. Right. And a borrower, you can quote a rate and they can go on their computer at home that night and find five other lenders that are probably going to beat your rate. Well, that's not what happens in the non-QM space. You're actually, you're actually a consultant and you're providing solutions to these borrowers because these borrowers have more than likely been turned down for alone. So, they're not online and they don't, you know, they really don't have the ability to go online and quote rates quoted and it's shopping you, they're in most cases. They're thrilled that you provided a solution so that they can buy that house that they've been wanting to buy for years. Yeah, it's, you know, with me being a marketing guy, that's the filter I'm looking through this. Just like any other niche, be it a divorce niche, be it a non-investor niche, whatever, you know, you're solving problems, you know, differentiating and you're providing that higher level of expertise and knowledge, right? People pay for that. And to your point, so you're going to get away from the price negotiation more so if you're actually, you know, able to deliver these solutions, which they are hard to find or few people are talking about. And here's another little nugget, Jeff, that I think some of your originators might might understand. So we're talking about self-employed borrowers, right, you know, the tax returns. There's a lot of people that that they qualify with their tax returns, but they really don't qualify for as much house as they want or need. I mean, you think about price appreciation that's occurred over the last 18, 24 months. You know, houses are expensive, and so we have a lot of our customers now, they'll get the tax returns when they take an application, but they'll also go ahead and get the bank statements. And they'll know it's really quick working with Angel Oak. We'll tell you within 24 hours exactly what income we will use based on those bank statements. And so yes, the borrower might be able to qualify for a loan, but maybe they only qualify for a $500,000 loan and they want to buy a million dollar house and they need a larger loan. Well, that's the bank statements are a solution. And so that's kind of, you know, we've seen that happening a lot now. And the originators that understand this non-QM and understand bank statements, they really have been able to differentiate themselves in the market to those real estate agents that, hey, listen, I know this borrower, you're trying to find that borrower $600,000 house and it's not working. But I can show him a way that he can afford a million dollar house and real estate agents are going to be pretty happy about you coming up with a solution like that. Yes, that's a pretty compelling for those that are calling agents out there. How about if I could increase your average transaction size by X, right? You got it. And agents want to hear that, you know, they want to they want to be educated about this. The funny thing to me is that, you know, I mentioned that we'll go and give these presentations to real estate agents with with the loan officer partner of ours. And we'll kind of be the resident expert on non-QM and self-employed bars. It never fails. After that presentation, two or three real estate agents come up and say, hey, can I get one of these loans? You know, because they're in the boat. They're the 1099, they ride everything off and they need a loan. And so it's, it's just there's so many reasons as an originator to understand these products and get out there and market them and market yourself as the expert in the state. Yeah, and I guess so, you know, to put a cap on that, I'll think of like, you know, I talked a lot of elbows who struggle with how to show up on social media, what the post and, you know, what do they say for those that are doing videos and stuff like that. And this is the perfect lane for that is obviously, you know, specializing in this niche of the underserved market, if you will, the self-employed, et cetera. I mean, there's just so many plays, you know, cards to play here from the realtor thing to the, you know, to the content thing, you know, on and on and on. So if you're not doing leading with education along this aspect, you know, I think you're missing out on the big time for sure. And on that end, if you are a partner, if you sign up to do business with Angel Oak, we have a full marketing site that, you know, as an example, you can take, we have self-employed borrower flyers that have already been built that say nothing about Angel Oak. And our elbows can go in and put their logo and their information and they've got a flyer that they can just post it on social media. And they can keep doing it and really kind of show that, hey, I am the expert in these non-QM loans in these self-employed borrower loans or investor loans or whatever. We've got all these tools already built that look, you know, extremely professional. And all it takes is you just go in and put your information and save it and it's yours. Yeah, that's great. It's great. Any help that we can provide from is going to be, you know, useful for sure. And I think I'm reminded of the phrase I've been doing a lot of reading lately on branding and, you know, all the stuff that we're talking about. And one of the phrases that just popped in my head was, be for someone instead of everyone. And that is a way to really get noticed and get attention. So be for someone. And that someone would be, right, these folks that aren't vanilla cookie cutter. And with that, whenever I say this and I start talking about people with niches and stuff, like the fear is, oh, if I specialize in self-employed, I'm not going to get the W2 borrower, right? It's like, yes, you will, right? Yeah. You know, they know to that. But guess what? If you aren't putting a stake in the ground and being for someone specifically, it's even harder for your voice to get heard. That's why I'm such a fan of, like, you know, choosing self-employed, for example. I love that. So a self-employed expert. And then, and that is, that's something that we've seen over the years, is that people who might, they lead in with that. But if, you know, think about it, if you get a referral and you, you help a self-employed borrower who thought they couldn't get alone, you help them get into a house, you're going to get referrals for the agency full doc, you know, the stuff that you're, you're, you've been doing all along. So it's just kind of, it's just building your business, it's building your brand, like you're saying. And I think non-QM is a great way to do it. 100%. All right. So this has been a good high-level overview education of why non-QM clearly. It's a large segment of the market moving forward. Lots of opportunities that we've talked about already around how to position yourself. Once again, for those who want to learn more about Angel Oak, where should they go? AngelOakMS.com. Awesome. Tom, I appreciate you making time, man. I know you're super busy. Hey Jeff, appreciate it. Enjoy talking with you. All right, listeners, you know what to do. If you want to learn more about non-QM, Angel Oak, you've got the address. We're going to put up the link in the show notes, so go check them out. I highly encourage you to do their leader in the space. And we appreciate you guys tuning in. We'll see you on the next episode. Bye for now. Hey guys, what's up real quick? You've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before. And I just want to quickly remind you of that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchase loans. You need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase business for you. Well, good news. Our mortgage marketing pro membership helps loan officers like you close more loans without the hassle of chasing agents or cold calling. 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