How Will FinTech and Digital Disruption Change the Mortgage Business?

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Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio. Brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute, your number one source for truth in Mortgage Marketing. Hey, listeners, what's up? This is Jeff Zimper. Welcome back to another episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast. And before we get into this week's special guest, I want to let you know, in case you haven't heard, have you heard the news, ladies and gentlemen, yes, indeed, the new book is almost out. And I've got special packages, promos, offers for you, my listeners. What the heck am I saying? What I'm saying is I'd love to get you on, have you joined the pre-sale list for the book? The new book Disruptor Die, How to Survive and Thrive, The Digital Real Estate Shift is written for both you and real estate agents. And it's all about how to navigate and make the shift, how to stay relevant and disrupt your proof, disrupt proof your business moving for it. Now, would you like to get on the pre-events list for the book before it reaches the general public? Would you do that? Well, because I'm going to make it worth your time, right? So much like when you get on the pre-sale list for bands, when they come into town stuff, you get the best seats, maybe get a VIP package and stuff like that, I wanted to do something similar. No, we're not going to go see the Rolling Stones together, although wouldn't that be cool. But what I want to do is put together a special package for you guys, which includes not only of course advanced access to the book before it comes available. So if you want to gift it to agents, you can definitely do that. You can buy that wholesale, by the way. But secondly, I wanted to include a special mini-course in there, which is how to disrupt proof your business in the digital real estate shift. And that'll be a short series of video modules for me can watch it great from your mobile phone. That'll be coming with the book pre-release only. And also, we're going to do a live while training webinar in conjunction with the release of the book that you will be invited to. And guess what? I've decided you can invite your real estate agents to come to that as well. So it could be a book, gift them the book, have them come to a live training webinar. I'm going to have some special guests on that webinar as well. It's really going to place you in a great position with those agents as pouring in and adding value to them, helping them succeed in the digital real estate shift. So all about this, how do you get on the pre-sale advanced notice list? You do this. You go to getdisruptordie.com. That's right. Getdisruptordie.com. Just put your info in. And then whenever you're listening to this within a matter of days, right, seven to ten days, you'll get notification of the pre-release of the book and you'll be ready to go rock and roll. And that's just for you. My loyal listeners, I appreciate you as always. Thank you. Thank you so much. More details and the process of writing and all that will be revealed as the book comes live and all that kind of stuff. So anyway, enough about that. Let's get into my special guest this week, Michael Hammond, who I had the pleasure of being connected to by, I think, was Christine Beckwith last week. So if you're listening, Christine, last, did I say last week, last year, if you're listening, thank you so much for that. But Michael is the president and founder of Next Level Advisors. And he does some really cool things in the FinTech space with companies. The bottom line is what they do is they help businesses, move audiences, generate leads, drive sales, and ignite powerful brand stories. Love that. And Michael is a seasoned mortgage technology executive bringing over two decades of leadership management, marketing sales, and technical product experience with his company, Next Level Advisors. Whenever his name has come up in certain circles, it's always come with respect and admiration. And Michael is somebody who's well entrenched in the industry and gets it in terms of what's happening from a FinTech standpoint. And of course, from a direct sales standpoint as well. So I wanted to have Michael on just to talk about what he's seen in the space of FinTech, the whole future digital disruption, just to what degree we need to be concerned or not, how what changes do we need to make. And so it's just a candid conversation around that. And of course, if you want to connect with Michael, we provide means for you to do that for his company, Next Level Advisors. You can connect with him on LinkedIn. It's Michael Hammond, H-A-M-M-O-N-D. And I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I do. Check the show notes for links to how to connect with Michael and so forth. And the link to the book, if you want to get on the pre-sale list once again, get DisruptorDi.com that's where you can get access to all that good stuff. So without further ado, let's get into this week's show. Michael, welcome to the show. Jeff, it's great to be with you today. Thank you for making time. I know you're incredibly busy in great demand, having just come back from a conference. We're going to talk about that. But for the listeners who may not know who Michael Hammond is, tell us about you and your company. Michael Hammond is a 20-some-year veteran in the mortgage technology space, former CEO of Mortgage Cadence. I'm a certified mortgage technologist, chairman of the board for a credit union here in Michigan. Almost my entire career has evolved around tech mortgage technology, financial technology. And what I do now is I'm the president of the founder of Next Level Advisors, who've been in business for over 12 years. And our whole goal is to help other technology companies grow. We do that by we help them engage their audiences, generate leads, drive sales, and create compelling brand stories. Love that. And that is a great, great place for us to actually enter the conversation. Because you work primarily if I'm correct in the mortgage space. In the mortgage technology space, that's primarily where a lot of our technology vendors are. That's where a lot of our customers are. But really, it can span across financial services. So we've had servicing companies, we've had property preservation, default management. You're starting to see a lot more in the real estate side of it, and that convergence of loan officer and real estate agent, and who has the borrower first, and what's going to be more sticky, and who had that touch point. So anything that falls into that realm, we think we can help technology providers grow. Okay. So you're seeing a pretty diverse cross section of companies in the mortgage fintech space out there. And this is why I wanted to have you on today is because you have visibility and access to what companies are actually doing to address what you said at the opening, which is move audiences, generate leads, drive sales, and ignite powerful brand stories. That's a lot. A few of those things, definitely our listeners have an interest in. But can you unpack that just in the context of like a mortgage company, right? The space we're in, the fintech, the disruption that's happening. What do you have companies asking you most about right now, most help with? I think where they're really struggling is that convergence of traditional media and self publishing. So companies want to get their name out there. They want to get brand recognition or the individual L.O. wants to get their name out there and be the known name in that specific demographic or region. And they're struggling with, you know, traditional ads. Do they still work? Maybe, maybe not for the right purposes. Can you get an article published? Yes. But if I'm an individual loan officer, somebody in corporate communications is probably taking care of that. So how do I get my name out there? How do I establish my personal brand? So we get a lot of questions around that. And then it always leads to, I don't know what to do with social media or I don't know how to get on LinkedIn or why would I jump on Instagram where there's no way, I mean, my kids are on TikTok and what the hell would I do with that? But we really try to help them unpack from a corporate perspective and then from that individual personal brand. That's the best way that they can tell their story in a compelling and differentiating way so that they can stand out amongst the crowd. In regards to FinTech and all the buzzwords and the whole disruption, let's take it down to the loan officer perspective. What level of concern do you think the individual producer or originator needs to have about the tech disruption? I think they have to have a healthy appreciation for it. I'll call it, whether you want to call it the Amazon effect or the Zillow effect. If people can go in, if you look at what's happening in the mortgage industry, the cost to originate continues to rise depending on what study you look at. Which, by the way, not to interrupt, but why is that if tech is getting so much, but I read the other day that roughly figured it was Fannie Mae who said, roughly $9,000 to originate a purchase transaction. Which is crazy. I mean, you look at it and say, why does manufacturing and loan continue to go up? Now, you can look back a few years back and say, well, when the CFPB came in and there was a ton of more regulation, you can see where the cost. Lenders had to hire attorneys. They had to have compliant staffs. I get some of that. But what's happening with a lot of the tech is in why disruption, I feel, is going to come into this space, is there's still a ton of inefficiencies. So, three, four, five years ago, all of the talk was about the point of sale thinking that that was going to be the magic button that would solve and deliver an incredible borrower experience. And what Lenders are realizing is that wonderful website or that mobile app so the loan officer can do whatever they need to on the weekends, off hours, and deliver what that borrower is asking. There's only part of the equation. If you do all of this great stuff at the point of sale and it still takes you 45, 50 days, 60 days to close on the loan, it's not a great borrower experience. So why an individual loan officer should be somewhat worried or at least have a healthy appreciation for a fintech of an Amazon or a Zillow coming in. What they're going to do probably better than anyone has so far in the industry or at least in the last five, ten years is they're going to automate a lot of the manual tasks on the back end of the process that is taking up those 10 days, 15 days, 20 days, and the longer those days go, the lower the borrower, the lower the borrower satisfaction is and the higher the cost it is to originate that loan. So that's where some of this is going to come in now. They should have a healthy appreciation for that because it means they're going to have to up their gain. Now, one of the things that the disruption probably can't do is they're not going to know that individual location, they're not going to know that individual demographic as well as that loan officer or that real estate does in that specific community. And so it's going to be critical for them to have better and more engaged relationships. Now, can they use technology to take care of some of the manual stuff so that they can spend more time with the potential borrower educating them, providing information to them when and where they need it? Yeah, it's funny because I was doing some research for my book coming out here in a couple of weeks and I'm trying to pull up the actual data point on that. But in the terms of like in so blockchain, right, you mentioned AI, blockchain is another thing. And so to your point as well, I'm glad you brought up the point of, you know, people throw around buzzwords and all that kind of stuff all the time and we need to put in the right context in the reality of something like like I was reading regarding blockchain, having the potential to issue a full-blown mortgage credit approval in 10 minutes, right? Right. I mean, but how far off is that is still quite a ways off? I would agree and again, that's only a fraction of the entire mortgage process. So even if you can get that done in 10 minutes, if all of the other processes haven't been touched and still takes you 45 days to close on the loan, what good is it? What good is it? It didn't really improve the borrower experience. All it did is magnify one area of the process and that's why I think holistically lenders have to look at it and say, if we're going to look at it from a borrower journey perspective, that's where it's going to have the impact and I think for too long, the mortgage industry has looked at a mortgage as a transaction, it has not looked at it as a revelation ship with the borrower and understanding that the borrower over the life of that borrower, they may get 7 to 11 loans over their entire life. So if the focus, if the technology, if the automation process is view it more from a, instead of a single transaction to really a borrower for life, you're going to see a lot of the other technologies that you're going to come in and streamline for the entire flow, then just saying, hey, I got a credit decision in 10 minutes, but it's going to take me two weeks to underwrite the loan. What do you see as the company's appetites to be willing to invest in this kind of technology? Well, I think what's helping with that is the Amazon effect. If the borrower is getting an incredible experience on all of their other purchasing decisions, whether it's online, whether it's through Amazon, whether I can order a car, now the consumer is being conditioned, I should expect that if I go on Amazon and I click and I order a book, I'm going to get it later today or tomorrow. And if I can go online and I can order a car and now it's going to pull up in my driveway and the next day or the next two days, why can't I do that with my mortgage and why is my mortgage taking 45 days? If it was left just to the lender, I'd say we still have a long way to go. But with the borrower now forcing the issue, I think more of this fintech is coming into play. That's why you saw a lot of people investing in the point of sale and really trying to improve that point of sale. Almost everyone I talked to, you mentioned the conference, I just got back from the next conference in Dallas, Mortgage and Women in Mortgage Technology Conference in one of the key words that almost everyone mentioned that I interviewed and talked to was we've got to automate the back end of the process. We've got to automate the back end. So I think the appetite is increasing. One of the other things that almost every lender says to me when I say well then how do you vet technology and if you're going to embrace new technology, what is a good decision again? Then it all comes back to a duck. If it doesn't fit into my current tech stack, I don't care how cool, I don't care how shiny or how many promises, we're probably not going to move forward. You're saying that's what companies are saying? That's what lenders are saying. When I ask them how do you vet technology, what are some of the most important things when you're looking at technology, they say if it doesn't fit within our current tech stack, we're probably not that interested in moving forward. That is very interesting. That sounds to me like those that are willing to adapt then will wind up beating that person that's not. Exactly. Then the other comment that they always make, and this was a great comment, it was from Kevin Pranio over here in G that said it needs to be noticeably different. Do you think that's valid? I think it's very valid and here's why. If you look at almost every aspect of the mortgage process already has current technology. There's technology to audit credit, flood, tidal appraisal, there's loan origination systems, there's POS, there's stock systems, so it's a displacement sale. You've got to displace somebody, so you're going to displace somebody and have a rip it out of their current tech stack and fit into their tech stack and have that new solution. It means that noticeably different. If it's not providing a significant value, then let's move on and automate a different area or aspect of the mortgage process because we're not going to get the ROI on that. What other areas though are there to optimize or improve, because we've got the front end. Obviously, by individual companies, different based on what they've invested in or not. But in general, the front end process of applying for a mortgage has been greatly improved. I would agree with that, but if you even take it a step back before they're them taking an app, I think there could be a ton done on the front end of lead generation in the mortgage space. There's a lot of people running around creating leads, selling leads are the leads validated. Have they been scrubbed? More importantly is that lead provider selling the same leads to ABC mortgage company, XYZ mortgage company, business model. That business model. That's a struggle. I think the other thing that's happening where you're going to see a lot of innovation and some disruption is how to better engage the borrower. Okay. You got me on that. The point of sale has a website and that's great, but how do you get the borrower to the website and more importantly, how do you continue to stay engaged if we're looking at it instead of a single transaction of a long-term relationship and borrower for life? So there's a lot of new automation out there and a lot of new tech out there that is using phone is using phone messaging, voiceless messaging is using text messaging. If you look at a lot of the studies in the mortgage industry, very few lenders are embracing text, texting yet. But the response rate is typically about 80 to 90 percent within two minutes. Is there an excuse you hear about the texting thing? Well, I think it's again, it's a comfortability for lenders. I don't know. That's pretty evasive. I don't want somebody to text me. Well, years go they didn't want somebody to call them and then a few shorter years they didn't want somebody to email them. I think the progressive lenders are using text, but I think the key is you have to have a platform that is multi-channel so that you have text, you have email, you have voice. And when you combine it, what you're trying to do is not bother the hell out of the borrower, right? So if I send them 10 texts in two hours or in two days, I irritated and I'm annoying. But if I have a system that can automate it and say, okay, the first day I'm going to call, the second day they're going to get a text, the third day they're going to get an email and then the fourth day I'll pick up and follow up with another call. Those are different touch points that are not as annoying. And if you have the right sequence and the right workflow built in, they can be very, very effective. So I think there's an area not just with point of sale, but prior to point of sale that can help out quite a bit. Sure. Doing kind of like the dating phase, right before you start to getting engaged, the kicking the tires, all that. Exactly. And then as we talked about, I think social media and have a great impact on that also. Right? And you've got to go to where your potential borrowers are at. So depending on the type of loan programs that you offer, depending on are you consumer direct, are you retail, are you wholesale, what is it that you are, the better you can interact with your potential borrowers, whether that's on Facebook, whether that's on Instagram, whether that's now on TikTok or, you know, you've got to be where your potential borrowers are at. And it's not always with the sales pitch. No. Right. 100%. Yeah. And it's very interesting. So it's a whole conversation in and of itself engaging with prospects, clients and things like that. You mentioned texting. I agree. I think there's a big opportunity for people to integrate texting in a variety of ways, which brings me to the research I've been doing recently also on messaging apps, whether they're chatbots or Facebook Messenger and things like that. What most people, and I didn't know this either, is that, according to, this is a quote from a Debbie Dority, head of marketing at Viber, which is a messaging app. And you probably will know this well. But most of the amount of time people spend on messaging apps is actually bigger than social media. Right. One time spent on messaging apps than in social media. Yeah. I mean, everyone's got their phone. I don't care. What demographic you fit. Almost everybody is walking around with the smartphone and what are they looking at? They're always looking at the text. They're always responding to a text. And then they get on social media. That's not that social is a bad platform. But I agree with you. Text is where a lot of it's at. And quite frankly, a lot of lenders aren't leveraging that as well as they could. Yeah. And just to go on here, a survey from, I've got all this so readily handy right now just because of the book. But a survey from BI Intelligence talking about chatbots that more than half of the users between 18 and 55 are using chatbots. And there's more data about how customers, 45% of consumers say they would choose them over email to get in touch with a business and all that. So this is just in the context of thinking about the customer journey and how do they prefer to engage with you in those early stages. Exactly. I was talking to a lender the other day and they said 78% of their loans that come in come in after hours. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yep. So how are you interacting, whether it's a chatbot, whether it's a live chat, and somebody is on that 24-7, or do you have automation that is going to send them the information they need when and where they want it, you know, a borrower was going to work traditional borrower is going to work all day. They're going to come home. They may have kids as fast. They're going to have dinner. They're going to have to do the homework. And then guess what? They put their kids to bed and now it's 10, 11, 12 o'clock at night is when they're going to start looking at what loan programs are going to fit, who's got the best rates. Yep. And if you're not meeting those needs, whether it's through chatbots, whether it's through AI, whether it's through text, you're missing out on a huge opportunity. Yeah. They're going to sit there with this device while they're watching Netflix, right? And browse some websites and social media and try and find the information that they're looking for. Absolutely. Yeah. It all comes back to the UI, right? The user experience, user interface, that kind of stuff. So I think the big question from this is, yeah, are we, it's like I forget who said it, right? Are we being a modern, you know, a savvy communicator using today's contemporary tools? Right. And right now, I think that's the struggle. So, you know, if somebody comes in and says, hey, we know how to use technology and we can put a lot of these systems in place. And so we can respond to the potential bar within two minutes or within five minutes. And it takes a credit union two days to get back who's going to win the business most of the time. Do you help companies in setting up, you know, their lead generation strategy? We do. And again, depending on what lead gen strategy they're focusing on, if they have a call center, can we train their callers, yes, but am I looking to create a whole call center for somebody? No. I mean, there's enough ways out there to do that, but can we help with that? But a lot of it, you really have to understand what is your potential borrowers journey. And I don't think a lot of times people take the time to understand what that journey looks like. What are those different touch points? What are the different channels that they interact with? And how can I best leverage technology to create greater efficiencies, right? A smaller credit union, a smaller lender could be very efficient in using some of the technology just to respond to a potential borrower in after hours, the same way that a B of A or a well-skut. Right? So technology can level the playing field for some if used properly and implemented at the right time. I was thinking about this question. You don't have to name names if it's not appropriate, but I was thinking about who do you see adapting, you know, and making the pivots that are going to be required. And do you see that happening more in the mid-tier and small versus the big, you know, eight-on-pound gorillas? Right. I would say it's probably meant to mid-high, because they have the budget. Yeah, well, the super big have a trouble because they can't be as agile, right? So it's a lot harder to turn that massive ship for them. So they're going to kind of pick and choose. They're going to see what's going on out there. And then they're going to implement an execute that middle high, they have enough money, they have enough resources, and they're growing. They see that they can grab market share. They see that in this new decade of lending. If you're doing what you did five or 10 years ago, you're probably not going to be around in another five or eight years. So those companies, I see that they're large enough to have the resources and the insights and the drive to, you know, really implement. Those are the ones that are doing it probably the most. And then you're going to see some of the startup, some of these smaller lenders that say, hey, there's a better way. I can do this with the sales force. I can do this with another product. I can reach out and engage with people. I'm using, you know, Facebook, I'm using Instagram. I'm using some of those tools. Those are probably the two groups that I see making the biggest impact. The people that are, you know, at the bottom end of the low are probably lagers and late adapters. And they're going to be really in trouble if they don't start embracing the technology and finding out how that technology can be used to really free up their people. Because the other thing that's going to happen is more things get automated. There's going to be a huge demand for top talent, whether it's a loan officer, whether it's an underwriter and what I mean by that is the technology is typically going to automate the easy and manual repetitive tasks. So let's just use an underwriter, for instance, if you can automate and manually handle a lot of the easy tasks in underwriting, then what type of underwriter do you need? The entry level underwriter, no, you need the one who can be exception based and really understand how to deal with the challenging ones that couldn't be automated and couldn't go through that manual process. And so there's going to be a huge battle for top talent. And I think the companies that can deliver great technology and make it easier for that top talent to do their job, whether it's the LO and tools to bring in new leads, tools to communicate more effectively with their borrowers throughout the whole process, those are the companies that are going to win the battle for the top talent in my money. So you think the threat, the disruption threat within the mortgage space is perhaps first and foremost or most impactfully within the operations side versus the sales? I think it's going to impact both, but I think in the near term, yes, I would say operational side more, because you can still, the tools are available for the loan officer to get on social media and start doing a lot more, right? And it's going to become more about engagement than having a bot that's just going to go find 5,000 followers, right? So I would say the back end is going to be impacted first by disruption because they're going to take care of those manual tasks, they're going to cut the closing days instead of 45, can they get it down to 28, can they get it down to 20? That's where the disruption is going to have its biggest impact first. Then they'll move to more of the front end or more of the lead gen, but again, some of that when it comes to engagement, you can't automate all of that. You want to automate the task that you can so that people have more time for the engagement and what the borrowers looking for in that experience. Yeah, and that's an interesting discussion as well, if I could bring that back up here, because even with the advent of technology, and you know this better than most, is that people want a blend of both, really. Right, it's not an all or nothing proposition. Yeah, they want to be able to have the convenience of finding the information and on their phone and having the simple front end app and maybe getting questions answered at that 10 PM at night and not having to wait till 9 AM to you open and all that stuff. But then at the point of where they're ready to move forward, that's where they're looking for the professional guide, the advisor. Exactly, and that's where you're going to have that battle for top talent, because the load officer that can provide that guidance, that insight not only to the local market, but why a 30 year would be better than a 15 year than an FHA product or a jumbo loan or whatever it may be, when that person turns to a trusted advisor, and the biggest challenge right now in the mortgage industry is it's not just, oh baby broolers do this, millennials do this, Gen-wide does this, it's a blend, so you can't just have a one-size-fits-all proposition back to that end borrower. Do you spend a lot of time looking at the Ibuyer market? You know, I think it's coming up more and more. I think it's one of those where, conceptually, kind of a cool idea, conceptually, they're starting to get their legs under them a little bit, but when I talk to lenders, you don't hear a lot of lenders totally threatened by the Ibuyer at this time. Oh, from the mortgage side, yeah. From the mortgage side, I don't see that from real estate, you probably, and I know you talked to more realtors and everything else than I do, you're probably seeing it on their side a little bit more. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. In particular markets, of course, Arizona where I'm here in Nevada, I forget the last stat I saw, open door courses, the leader in Arizona, I think they were anywhere between six and 10% of the market transactions in Arizona. Okay, so I think from the real estate, yeah, that's something I'm going to be readily aware of right now. I think from the mortgage side of it, the panic button has not been hit yet. It's more of, I've heard about the term, I kind of see it happening out there. Let's wait and see until it impacts my business and my bottom line. Yeah, interesting stuff I know. And of course, it's a little now becoming a mortgage company and again, I think that goes back to kind of what we talked about originally is like the buzzwords and the AI and people tend to focus on either what's what's bright and shiny, right? Because it's sexy and new, tick-tock, I have a whole rant on tick-tock or what's sounds threatening and looming, you know, because it gets attention. Exactly, it gets attention to everyone's jumping on it, but what is the AI doing? If you can say I cut out these 15 steps and it took from 10 days to two hours, then there's some, that's real. If you talk about on the back end of the mortgage docs and you can use AI and visual recognition and now it can store all of that loan information and now I have it at my disposal and it can go and clean up those loans and it can automate certain things on the back end, okay? And there's some validity, but just throwing AI out there and you go to any trade show and you see it on a bunch of boots, AI and everything like that, I think right now lenders are kind of fascinated by it because it's a shiny object and they're also, you know, a big portion of them that are still very skeptical saying, so what is that going to do for my business? Yeah. You do some work in helping companies going back to kind of your bio here, generate leads, drive sales? Correct. Is there a particular place you see companies being more successful in terms of generating leads? I assume that's online. It's online. It can be in person because again, the mortgage business is still about relationships. So if we take, you know, a tech company who wants to sell into banks, lenders and credit unions, they still need to be, you can't do it all online, right? Money is not going to buy a loan origination system just because they saw an online debt. They're going to probably want to meet people. They're going to want to talk to your prospects. They're going to want to research who are the other lenders in my area or at my size that are using that system and have had success with it. So when we talk strategies, I think engagement is critical. I think a tool, especially from a B2B perspective, LinkedIn can be very, very powerful. I think there's still a lot of executives that are scared to use LinkedIn or say, I don't see the value in what I can say. And I'm sure you have the same experience. You go to a conference now and people are like, hey, Michael Hammond. And now I finally learned I'm like, LinkedIn and they're like, yeah, we connected on LinkedIn a month ago, two weeks ago, a year ago. So what it does now, though, is going to those conferences, people feel that they know me. They've seen a video. They've listened to a podcast. They've seen an interaction like this so that when I meet with them, they feel that there's a little bit of history and we can have a deeper discussion. And then the whole relationship is then enhanced and moved forward. So we'll give a lot of tactics to help companies in how do they improve engagement and how do they leverage in person using technology, using text, using, you know, social media platforms, using email marketing, automation to really make sure that they're visible and highly relevant to that company when they're making that purchase decision. So you're a believer in personal brand? Absolutely. Both companies and individuals. Yeah. I think too many companies are scared for to have some of their individuals create a very powerful brand and they feel very threatened, you know, the owner of a tech company is going to get very threatened when let's just say they're direct or sales and marketing or PR or their customer success manager now starts becoming a household name and they're not. And what I have found is if people create an incredible brand for themselves, all that does is enhance what they say then about that company, you know, we looked at, you look at somebody like a Chelsea Pikes, I heard her speak at a housing where you're engaged last year. Does everything she do on Instagram or a book, is it all business related? No, but people by watching, you know, what she's doing on Instagram feel they know who she is. So then when she says, this is what's important to engage as a financial institution for a realtor, for a loan officer, for an executive, there's much greater believability and much greater trust because they've already feel that there's that great personal brand and they feel that they somehow know that individual, I think it's a huge area where a lot of companies are missing out by not embracing personal branding and letting their teams really run with it. I know the corporate communications people want to control all the messaging and we want to have one voice consistency, but people buy from people they know people buy from people they like and they're not just buying from that company, they're buying from the sales team, the marketing team, the customer success team. So I'm a big proponent of personal branding and I think that's where a lot of companies are going to see that convergence of personal branding and still taking advantage of traditional, you know, whether it's PR, whether it's marketing, whether it's, you know, getting articles written, interviews and everything like that, that conversion is happening. Well, let's kind of close on on that thread of personal branding because I mean, that's the age that we're living in now and that is, I think, a struggle in full transparency. I know it's been for me in being personal out there and putting it out there. Any advice or tips on how people can make that transition to having a more kind of public persona? I think for the first thing is you've got to start putting yourself out there and I'll share a story last year when I was at housing where you're engaged and I kept talking about it. You know, you can see I've been in the industry a number of years, over 20, so I'm not the youngest guy on the block when we're talking about personal branding and social media. And what I really looked at is I had to take a look in the mirror and say, I don't want to be left behind a year ago, Jeff, I didn't even know how to take a selfie, yes. But in listening to speaker after speaker talk about the power of video and how important it is to get your personal brand out there. What I realized is even though we were doing a lot of great things, a lot of great strategies and helping companies grow, we always were doing it on the back end and people are like, who is this Michael? Secret. And I didn't want to be the best kept secret anymore. So the best tip I can say is first get started and then I would share things that you're passionate about. If you don't want to share your kids age and don't want to show pictures to your kids great, don't do that, but you can still share your personal opinions on some aspect of the mortgage business or I do a lot on leadership when I do a weekly LinkedIn video. So it may be on leadership or pain points that people are addressing. So it may not be personal aspects of exactly when I graduated from high school or that I'm married in the age of my kids and exactly what they do. And I can still share a personal side of myself where people can feel like they've gotten to know Michael Hammond a little bit better without necessarily giving away everything. And that is the shift I think just to highlight that once again is that is the shift that for those of us that have been in sales or the business world for 20 plus years. That is what's happened is people now want to do business with like you said, the old cliche, no like and trust, but they actually do want to feel like they know you at some level. Your point about Chelsea, that's what it works very well for Chelsea is she creates this personal connection and following with people who now become fans. You know, it's a bit weird to take on, but I think then you realize that this is the world we live in that people want to transparency. They absolutely do and people think, okay, well, you're creating all that and make it all about yourself. It's not about painting myself on the back and just saying, hey, I'm awesome. It's I try to share something. I've seen a lot of posts recently on LinkedIn where people say, hey, I'm really struggling with this ass back in. And the way I phrase that is they're being genuine and authentic. They're not trying to sell someone instantly. They're sharing part of the struggle, whether it's being a loan officer, whether it's being a real estate agent, whether it's a tech vendor, but that genuine authentic sharing, commenting and not just to drive by social posts and clicking like, but actually saying, Jeff, that was a really good insight. I liked how you shared X, Y, and Z. That just builds better relationships and social media and LinkedIn and all of these others are just a tool to help build that relationship just like the phone was how many years ago, just like email then became it's another tool if used properly can really foster great relationships out there and improve engagement. Yeah, and I guess lastly on that, you know, talking about how times have changed and you, you know, we're talking about tech through this conversation, texting. So, I mean, the way to engage and connect with people has changed. They used to answer the phones. They used to take office meetings. I mean, people don't really do that anymore. So how do you reach people? You reach them, of course, the mediums we're talking about. Exactly. And I think one of the comments that Linda said to me from this last conference, before I agree to any of those product demonstrations, I look to people up on social media and find out do they have a presence. Yes. Not only do they have a presence in what are they saying? Who else is following them in my circles? And if the answer is zero, then you know what? That demo is probably not going to happen. Interesting point. That's a credibility thing. Absolutely. It's like the version of online reviews, you know? Right. And they're looking and saying, who in my circle? I had the other day a vendor reach out to me and want to talk to me and kind of pick my brain. And then they said, oh, by the way, I see you work with and post a lot about this other company. We're really interested in talking to them. Interesting. Interesting. It's all. And that's all from the online personas that are out there. That's all happening without you even knowing it. Right. So you might be getting not even invited to the dance just because of that. Exactly. Interesting. I heard once I interviewed an agent once and you know, people sometimes challenge the whole, hey, do I need to be online? I'm still doing business, all that kind of stuff. And I like the way he put it in context. And we all know this. People are going to look you up before they call you for the referral and all that. But you know, he said how like online today, your presence online, you are being judged by your online presence because it is the yellow pages of today. Absolutely. Like if I can't look you up, how can you be legit? Right. I mean, the people who have a LinkedIn profile and no picture. Oh my god. credibility is dropped. I mean, it's amazing that people still do that. Well, I didn't want to put my picture. I posted something today that LinkedIn now has partnered through Microsoft since Microsoft owns LinkedIn. You can go into a Microsoft store and get a new LinkedIn headshot for free. You posted that. That's where it came from. I saw that. I saw from someone else. I was not the original poster, but I shared it at least in the financial services sector today by passing that along. Yeah, exactly. Actually, it made me think maybe I should go in there and do that. But I'm like, why I have everything here? But great share, great, great inform to share. And that's an example, right? Curate that little piece of content and just feed that off to your network. Absolutely. Love it. Okay. Cool. We know you're doing a lot of good stuff with companies, helping them get clear on their brand, right? The financial technical strategy, help them become modern, right? You come into the current age for anybody listening, be it an individual or a company leader. What's the best way for them to connect with you? They can connect with me on LinkedIn, just go to Michael Hammond and then they can connect with me. DM me. I'll be more than happy to talk to them. They can also email me at M Hammond, H-A-M-M-O-N-D, at next level advisors. There's no T in it. So it's N-E-X-L-E-V-E-L-A-D-V-I-S-O-R-S dot com. And then go to our website, same URL, nextleveladvisors dot com. I'd be more than happy to speak to them. DM me on LinkedIn, whatever it is. I'd love to pick up the phone and talk. We can have a discussion. It's great fit. Awesome. If it's not, I'll be more than happy to share what I know in the industry and any way that I can add value and give back is what it's all about. Awesome. Well, I know you're making a big impact in the industry. It's great to be able to connect with you when we did last year. Anything I've ever heard when your name comes up, it's always with utmost respect and like, yeah, Michael knows this stuff. That's usually what everybody's saying. Thank you very much. If I greatly appreciate that, I'm a huge fan of your podcast. You've been blazing the trail for quite some time. So if I can pick up some tips from what you're doing and follow that trail, I greatly appreciate you forging the way. You bet. Thank you for being here. And listeners, as always, we appreciate you. You know what to do. If you like this episode, hey, leave us a review wherever you're listening to this. We appreciate you tuning in. We'll see you on the next one. Bye for now. Hey guys, what's up real quick? You've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before. And I just want to quickly remind you of that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased loans. You need to fill your pipeline with purchase business. Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase business for you. Well, good news. 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