Lead Generation for Loan Officers: Finding the Right Strategy

What is the recommended ad spend for somebody to actually see some results? Our official training videos and everything that we talk about is $35 a day. And the idea here, guys, is like, listen, with a lead gen company, they're going to ask you to spend $35 a day, at least $1,000 a month an ad spend. If you don't, it's probably not worth it. Now, we have lead hackers who get away with spending $20 a day, but I wouldn't recommend it just because they're successful. Doesn't mean that you're going to be successful. You know, the funny question that I get, Jeff, which I'm sure you get is, what's the conversion rate? Why do you think that there's a general blanket conversion rate for every loan officer in America, like this guy over here, he's been a loan officer for 20 years. He's going to have a way different conversion rate than you. Alex, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Hey, man, it's good to connect with you, especially on this topic of leads, lead gen marketing, consumer direct versus referral partners. We're going to unpack all that in a minute. But before we do, what do you want to tell the audience about who you are and what you do? Well, I could go on for days about that while trying to give you the short version it might seem long, because I've been doing this a long time. I've actually been in the mortgage lead generation space for seven years. And my first company that I started was a mortgage lead generation company. I was able to scale that to half a million dollars a month and under 11 months. And we saw some success, but it was my very first time running a marketing agency. And so I was learning operations on the fly. And as you know, the housing market took a turn for the worst about three years ago. And so we were a high ticket service charging anywhere from four to six thousand dollars a month. And so when the market turned, I mean, loan officers and mortgage brokers abruptly stopped buying our services, everybody was afraid to spend money and rightfully so, right? And so we went from about 50 deals a month to zero, right? Started losing sales guys for lack of deal flow. So I faced this huge problem in my business because we had no revenue coming in and a ton of overhead expenses. And so kind of solving this problem really seemed like an insurmountable goal. Because in order to solve my business problems, I had to solve your business problems, meaning the audience, right? The problems of the mortgage brokers and loan officers. And so like any decent entrepreneur, I had to pivot. And that's how my company lead hackers was born. You know, Jeff, we had a lead gen company. We always used to say, man, if we could just take all the money, our clients are giving us and put it directly into the ad spend, they would all be millionaires, right? But we can't because we have all of these overhead expenses, office space, salaries, rent, insurance, software, tools, right? And so I realized that most mortgage brokers and loan officers don't succeed in lead generation. And the reason why is because lead generation is fundamentally flawed, okay? For a few reasons. Number one is because of the monthly service fees, right? And so when you enter into a contract with a lead gen company, you're basically signing up for a race against that monthly retainer. And the sales cycle is very long and mortgage, right? Which puts most brokers and loan officers at a disadvantage, right? Let's say, you know, a lead gen company charges you $2,000 a month. Well, then by month three, you're already in the whole sixth grand, right? Well, the problem is sometimes it takes 90 days to close alone, right? So by the time you close your first loan, you're barely breaking even, then you have to keep spending that 2K just to try and make a little bit of profit, right? And so that's a problem. On top of that, your marketing budget is diluted by that lead generation company's overhead expenses. So automatically you're paying a 100% markup on the cost of leads at a minimum. And so most people don't know a mortgage broker or a loan officer who has stuck with a lead gen company for more than six months. There's a reason for that, right? People hate lead generation companies. And the most important thing you can have in a movement is a common enemy. And so we set out to destroy lead generation companies. That's our mission. We have a software that allows mortgage brokers and loan officers to launch their own mortgage ads in less than three clicks. They can do it on Facebook, Instagram and Google. And so the question becomes, why pay a lead generation company thousands of dollars every single month to do the same thing that you could do with just a click of a bond? Yeah, I love that. We'll talk a little bit more about what makes your platform different. And you raised a couple of excellent points in there regarding the overhead, the cost, all those things. Let me circle back to the first conversation you and I had, because I got introduced to you by one of my members in my agent classes, Trevor. And I remember I think you opened up with something to the effect of like, I know you don't like running ads or something like that, right? Because I'm obviously very bullish on the whole like the first pillar of referrals. And I thought it was interesting. So I guess that means my brand perception is working, right? Because you got to become known for something, right? One thing, one avatar. Yeah. And I agree with, and I think, and I even say this to like, if I have a demo with somebody, I'll tell them if they're like, hey, I'm a new loan officer, I'm like, you shouldn't start in the red. You shouldn't start throwing money into like, you should close some deals first from referrals. Maybe real to really like, that's how I would go. I wouldn't just jump in a lead generation. You only want to jump in a lead generation when you've maxed that out and you want to scale. Right. And so I thought that was a good point and jumping off point for the conversation and just to set the record state, which I know I did during our conversation. And for everybody listening, just to be clear, I'm glad you said that. There's different pillars of business, right? And so referral partners is one of those. And I love the fact that you just highlighted, because I was going to ask you the question, how do you know when somebody is, is right for investing and paying for some type of a lead generation? They're currently closing loans. It's as simple as that, right? They're currently closing loans and so they have the money to snowball into it. And I say this all my demos, right? We're the only lead generation company that's endorsed by both the National Association of Mortgage Brokers and the Association of Independent Mortgage Experts. And so I feel like I have a responsibility to tell people the truth and do it. Like we can't lie to people and be like, yes, sign up for this. This is a good fit for you, right? And so if it's not a good fit, we tell them like we're obligated to tell them, right? And so here's when it's not a good fit. You're just getting into mortgage and you don't have anything in the pipeline for any friends and family. You haven't even attempted to get realtor relationships. Like these are all things that you should do at the beginning. Your client acquisition cost at the beginning needs to be zero dollars, right? And so if you start spending $2,000 a month in ad spend, before you know it, you could be in the whole $67,000 and the reason that's going to have a negative effect on you aside from the obvious, which is your bank account, but it's a lot harder to sell when you need to sell. Right? It's a lot. People can sense desperation. And so you're putting yourself at a disadvantage in a bad environment to actually be successful because your plan catch up the whole time. All right. So help for those listening, some people may have tried ads in the past. Maybe some people are currently doing it. But there's also, maybe this is just an narrative in my head, right? So let me approach it this way. Like when people throw realtors under the bus, right, as an obvious kind of scapegoat. One of the answers I have back to that is like, you know, when they say, oh, realtors are hard, realtors suck or whatever. And I'm like, look at everything's hard. Every channel is hard, right? Leads, paid ads is hard, right? It's about choosing your hard, but things can become easier if you've got the right systems in place. So where do you see, like if somebody's listening right now and they're thinking, hmm, I'm closing three loans, five loans a month, is it right time for me for ads? What do they need to have in place that you would want them to have in place before you would consider they're ready? Well, so if I'm doing like three to five loans a month, right? And I have, let's say, one realtor that's passing me business, maybe two of them. I know that the kind of the sales cycle is a little bit long because it's about relationship building. Well, then I, you know, you have enough money to scale here. Here's what I say. There's only three ways people can get leads, friends and family, realtors, or you can just buy them, right? And so friends and family, most people do not have enough friends and family to scale their business. They are not that popular, right? And if they were, they wouldn't even be looking at lead generation in the first place. And the second thing, realtors, great way to supplement your deal flow, not a good idea to be relying on someone else for your business. But buying leads is the only scalable and predictably scalable option. And the reason I say that is because if I know that I close one loan for every thousand dollars I spend in ads, that means if I spend two thousand dollars, I'm going to close two loans, right? And so you can have some predictability in your business. You should be doing all three, right? Because you never want to be pulling one lever because if that lever falls apart, you're screwed. And so this is why I tell people that I think a big mistake people were making, especially during my marketing agency's tenure, was everybody who was relying on refinances. And so they became order takers. And by the time it came time to close home purchase deals, they forgot how to do it. Right? So those relationships built in as well too, right? Because that's more of a relationship based sale. And so a lot of people who were just order taking and doing refinances, yeah, they made a lot of money. But that's probably the same reason why there's only, and I don't know if you look the subject. Somebody had me Google this the other day, how many mortgage brokers there are left? There's between mortgage brokers and loan officers, there's 95,000. You want to know how many mortgage brokers are left according to Google? 20,000. Insane. Yeah, I mean, I always question the data, but yeah, but that's what shows up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I get it, I get it. Okay, so let's deal with this narrative of like, you know, I've seen people comment on lead gen companies in the past. Hundreds of leads, you know, low conversion, blah, blah, blah, timeline is 12 or 18. Like how do you address what I know? You know what I'm referring to there? I'm in there. So yeah, I'll address a few of these at once. Okay. As to the audience, I hate to burst your bubble and I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But bad quality leads when it comes to lead gen is unavoidable, okay? We have a law in place called the Fair Housing Act. You guys should know this. You're mortgage brokers and loan officers, but somehow it goes over people's heads because I want to be very clear about this, okay? We have a law in place called the Fair Housing Act. So what that means is you cannot target people on Facebook, Instagram or Google by the three most important factors that we use to judge lead quality on. And those factors are income, loan amount and credit score, okay? It's not even an option that any of these platforms provide. You guys think Facebook and Google want to be five billions of dollars and just blatantly ignore housing laws? Of course not, right? Yet what most of you do is you jump around from lead company to lead company searching for better lead quality, that doesn't exist, right? And so most of the time when I ask a mortgage broker or a loan officer, what is your objective when your buying leads? Most of them say, well, the objective is to find the best quality lead. Well, now we know better, right? Now we know that that objective is school's goal. So what is it, right? What is the objective? The aim of the game is not about finding better lead quality than what is it about, right? And so it's about the same thing funny enough that every business has been about since the beginning of time, business 101. How do we acquire new customers for the lowest cost possible, right? If we know that lead quality is left to chance because income, loan amount and credit score all come in at random, well, then we know that the objective is simply, how do I save on cost and get the most leads for my dollar? Once they're in our ecosystem, we can then figure out which ones are the better quality leads. Now, I'm not getting into the specifics like, of course, you can build a funnel and ask them, you know, questions and filter them out that way on landing pages. But when you're talking about generating the lead, it doesn't matter what their credit score is. According to Facebook, I got to pay the same amount for every single lead, good and bad, right? And so to address the timeline, the timeline is one of the funniest things ever to me because you got to just ask yourself this question because a lot of people, and this is how I explain it, when you go into the mall and let's say you go to American Eagle, you want to buy a pair of jeans, right? And the sale, you know, you're going in there like, hey, I'm going to buy a pair of jeans. I'm just want to go in there for the sales associate comes up to you and says, hey, can I help you with anything? What do you say? Just looking man, just looking not interested, right? It's the same thing with these phone calls, right? And so like when somebody says, oh, like, cause I'll use that from some of our students, hey, yeah, the lead, the lead said they weren't ready to move for another 12 months. I'm like, ask yourself this question, would you click on an ad about purchasing a home if you weren't ready to move for another gear? Of course not, right? Respects lie. You just didn't build enough rapport on the call and I tell him, you know what you should do? Here's what I do. Like if I'm calling, cause I've done this, I'm like, oh, you're not able to do it. Like, and I'll call myself. And so when you're having that conversation and they say, yeah, I'm not ready to move for another night. I'll joke around and just throw it back to them and say, yeah, at least and I always click on ads about purchasing a home when I'm not ready to move for another nine months. You know, like just joke around about it or I'll even kind of play the guilt factor. And so like if somebody says like, oh, no, like I'm not interested, I didn't fill out a form or I didn't, you know, just looking or whatever it is, I'll say, hey, can you do me a favor? So I just started running Facebook ads and each one of these leads actually cost me $20. And so I'm trying to figure out like why somebody would click on the ad if they're not ready to like purchase a home. You think you can give me some feedback? And you know what they'll say? What? Well, you know, I am looking and boom, you got them, right? And so you have to understand prospects lie. Yeah. They're getting a call they're automatically on the defensive. What about the types of ads that seem to work or would be because, you know, the complaint narrative to keep pulling on that thread seems to be that some of the other lead gen companies, you know, are going with the DPA type ads, low down low credit. What's your take on that? Yeah, that's what, listen, the reason boutique lead gen companies go with the DPA ads is because in the marketing communities and the classes and the courses that guys like me used to take when I was a kid coming up, those are the ads that are provided. Nobody provided HELOC and DSER ads and all that stuff as a boutique company, nobody was doing that before. Our most successful ads that we have in my community are HELOC. We use something called figure eight. We heard about it. It's pretty cool. And so what it is is it's an AI application that you can get approved in under five minutes for a HELOC. And so what we decided to do was run ads directly to the application and what would happen. They would either get approved without even having to speak to the loan officer or they even better, they would get denied. If they get denied, we can call them up and get them on refinances, right? And so a lot of people have been doing really like Mitch Chang, crushes HELOCs, Alan Parker Duke, crushes HELOCs, Simon Glenn, Simon Glenn just became, he just won top one percent at next to mortgage, which I think is great. I mean, there's 2,500 loan officers there and he's a great at HELOCs. Another huge one is DSER. I love it. Trevor loves DSER and the reason that we recommended is because it's the gift that keeps on giving. Your customers are investors, which means they're not just investing in one property unlike a home. They're not buying one every 10 years. And so if you get a DSER client, you could theoretically it's like the gift that keeps on giving. You can close more and more deals through them. Yeah. The other thing that I think is unique about you guys and you kind of alluded to this earlier, but it's a very important point for people to understand. And I know this very well because I'm actually spending money on Facebook ads as we speak. And so you've got two costs. You've got the agency overhead cost and then you get your ad spend cost. But you guys have a bit of a fresh twist to this, which allows, as you said earlier, frees up more capital for you to redirect that spend instead of towards the agency overhead cost, which you're going to pay 1,000, 3,000, whatever it is, agency overhead costs for them to kind of run the ads by the spots, all that stuff. And therefore you've got less to drive towards ads. But you guys kind of flipped that on its head a little bit. Tell me more about that. Yeah. And so mostly generation companies, the service fee is more than the ad spend. We do the opposite and then we do even more. So we charge 2.97 a month. And the reason for that is because people ask me, hey, why don't you go from charging $6,000 a month to $2.97 a month. I said, it's a volume play. And I know that they'll stay forever because if you close one loan, it pays for itself for the whole year. How do you get? There's no, remember guys, all leads are created equal, right? When it comes to those important factors that we talked about, it's all at random. And so if that's the case, well, then what's going to make you more successful? The cost of the service, if it's extremely low, well, then the time horizon on which you can be successful is much longer. So if a lead gen company is charging you $2,000 a month and I only have $4,000, I better close a deal in those two months, right? But with us, the time horizon is much longer. And so you can rest assured knowing that, hey, my overhead costs aren't going to be substantial. The reason most people fail is because again, lead generation, especially in the mortgage industry, is fundamentally flawed because your marketing dollars have a 100% markup. And so you're getting 50% of what you're actually paying for at most. And if we know that all leads are created equal, you might as well cut out the middleman, right? The whole reason you're paying that lead generation company is you're paying for their expertise. But in the mortgage industry, their expertise are a new point because they can't get you better income, better loan account, better loan amounts or better credit scores. And so the only reason you would be using a lead gen company is because you don't know how to generate your own leads. But now you can do it with our software and less than three clicks. And all the ads are pre-built to improve in and tested. Yeah, I guess that's the other headwinds people would come up against when running ads, which is the intricacies of working in with the Facebook ads manager and promoting on meta, all that stuff, because that's like a separate skill set in and of itself. So how do you facilitate that at such a low cost to you with somebody who doesn't want to be a Facebook ads or I should to be saying meta ads expert? Yeah. And so again, it's a software that allows you to launch your ads in less than three clicks. And so what we have is a library of proven, ready to use ads that are pre-built for you. They're guaranteed to get you the lowest possible cost per leap. And so if you wanted to launch an ad, you would simply select the ad you want, enter how much money you want to spend a day, which is great because you're in control of your own ad spend, put in your website and click launch. Now we provide you landing pages and so you don't need a website. They're already pre-built, embedded into your software for you. And so it's just click and drag. It took me three months to learn Facebook ads, it'll take you guys three minutes. Hmm. Really? Come on now. That sounds a little oversimplified. That's what it is. And here's the beauty of it. The expertise guys is built into the community. We have 60 plus live coaching calls a month. Day alone, we've had five. We have support calls twice daily, every single day of the week. We have CRM trainings twice a week, where it's just a walkthrough of the CRM to get you comfortable with it, walkthrough of all the features. We have ads trainings three times a week. We have sales trainings. We even have advanced coaching because some of our power users were like, hey, I'm sick of all these rookie questions, you know, I want the harder stuff. And so we made advanced coaching calls. And so, you know, if you were to partner with a lead gen company and you have an issue, you're going to have to send an appointment with them, wait three days with us, you can reach us every single day of the week. Hmm. Very interesting, very interesting. Plus, okay. So the other aspect of this whole D conversion thing, timeline, all that stuff is the conversion and the, you know, multiple steps that are involved such as somebody clicks on an ad, they opt in, they fill out your funnel, right, then we've got, we've got the text messaging. We've got to do some phone calls. We've got to do some longer term email drip nurture campaigns. How do you help people do that? So all of that, all of what you mentioned is built into it. And so every single lead is going to be texted within minutes of them filling out a forum, ensuring speed deleted at the highest level. So there's text follow up, there's email follow up, all those emails are already prebuilt for you. Top 10, you know, top 10 best tips on buying a home, right? These beautiful emails. And so they're put into long term nurture sequences, but nothing's going to be dialing, right? And so, you know, we teach you strategies on dialing. For example, when I ask a mortgage broker, if they're double dialing, they have no idea what I'm talking about. And so for example, if I call somebody, or if I get a phone call from a number that I don't know, I'm most likely not going to pick it up. Right. But if they call me consecutively, I'm going to think, oh, this must be an emergency. And I'm going to pick up the phone, I'll give you an example. I was in the hospital with my father, he was in ICU. I got a call from a number I didn't know, I didn't pick it up. I got it the second time I was going to pick it up, and I said no, but they called me a third time. I picked it up. I'm like, hello, I'm in the hospital with my dad like, hello, and it was Grand Cardone's office. And I'm like, you got me, you know, like they, they got me, they were trying to sell me, obviously, some stuff. But um, and so the other, the other factor for double dialing is because most people that have their phone on do not disturb, and it breaks through the do not disturb if you call twice consecutively. Oh, really? Yeah. And so it's great for contact to success rate. Those are things that are important, right? Strategic dialing as well, certain hours, like their systems that you can use to, by process of elimination, eliminate times of availability so that you are making, you are being efficient with your dialing. So for example, most people, they dial sequentially. So let's say I have a list of callers, I'm just going to start at the top and go from the bottom, right? And instead of doing it, and the problem is, is you just keep doing that over and over again, you're praying and spraying, right? And so what we call strategic dialing is, all right. So let's say it's Monday, I'm going to call this lead at 9 a.m. on Monday, right? And then I'm going to call them at, let's say, 9 30 or 10 o'clock on Tuesday, right? If they're not available in that time window, I'm crossing it out, I will never call them on that day again. And I'm going to, yeah, Wednesday and Thursday, I'd move between 12 and 1. And then Thursday and Friday on 5 and 6, and I'm crossing those times out and I'm never calling them at those times again because what I'm trying to do is figure out their availability by process of elimination. And so there's critical thinking that goes into my dialing, but over time, what's going to happen is you're going to have a lit, like your context success rate is going to substantially pick up because you are not calling these people at times that they're not available. You're only calling them at the times that could be available. And so you're, by process of elimination, over time, you know, your data is going to be way, your context success rate should pick up substantially in about, you know, if you're doing it consistently, it's going to pick up. What is the recommended ad spend for somebody to actually see some results? Our official training videos and everything that we talk about is $35 a day. And the idea here, guys, is like, listen, with a lead gen company, they're going to ask you to spend $35 a day, at least $1,000 a month an ad spend. If you don't, it's probably not worth it. Now we have lead hackers who get away with spending $20 a day, but I wouldn't recommend it just because they're successful. It doesn't mean that you're going to be successful. You know, the funny question that I get, Jeff, which I'm sure you get is, what's the conversion rate? Why do you think that there's a general blanket conversion rate for every loan officer in America, like this guy over here, he's been a loan officer for 20 years. He's going to have a way different conversion rate than you, right? Right. This is the magic lead, man. Exactly. And that's what they want is they want closed loans. They want done for you loans. And that's a mistake I made with my, my first agency is we try to do everything for them outside of wiping their butt and we had a bunch of unhappy customers. And now we empower them to do it themselves and people are much happier because they're getting results. They're much more consistent. Nothing's going to be better than the broker talking to the lead. People try and outsource it. Yeah, let me get a VA to call all my leads. What do you think's going to happen? Listen, I can say this, I'm Hispanic. My father's from Ecuador. He's got the thickest accent of all that all of all time. What do you think's going to happen when they hear a voice from the Philippines or they're not going to show up to the appointment? There's no credibility there. They're going to be worried that it's a scam, unfortunately. That's just the reality of it, right? And so people try and outsource too much work when they really should be doing it themselves. Like in our community, I have very candid conversations with our community and I'll say, like, oh, yeah, my VA, I'm like, you're VA. Dude, I looked at your MMI, like, who do you think you are? You're barely closing any loans. Why do you think you need a VA? Like, what are you doing? You should be doing this yourself so you can teach the VA how to do it. But clearly, you don't know how to do it. You're wondering why all my VA isn't being successful. How do you expect your VA to be successful if you haven't made the roadmap and been successful in it? Yeah, that's such an interesting good point. Are the ads branded or are they generic? So the ads are not branded. It'd be really tough to kind of brand it for everybody in their own. At that cost level, yeah. Yeah, at that cost level, for sure. And so the ads are generic. I guess you could call them that, but they're all unique. Every ad is different. They have different value propositions. They look different. The colors are different. And so when you're running ads, we're talking about direct to consumer marketing, not necessarily brand awareness. You want brand awareness. Social media posting is good. We have a social media planner. You can plan out your social media for the entire year. It'll automate all your posts. But that's not what we sell. It's like just a bonus. But direct to consumer marketing, I'm just worried about the lead. Right, right, exactly. Wow. That's really cool. Obviously, you guys, from looking at the testimonials on your site, and the fact that you guys were the top aim, top name, recommended partner, and the fact that you've kind of turned traditional agency marketing pricing structure on its head. That's what really got my attention. And the fact that one of our fellow colleagues, Trevor, spoke very highly of you, and he was in our community as well. That's amazing. Incredible. Yeah. He's a guy who executes. Yeah, he's a, and you know what I love about Trevor being our coach. I look at him and he will have no problem with me saying this. If you met Trevor, you would be like, no, he's not good at sales, because he's a pretty monotone, right? Right, right. Whatever is monotone. But you want to know what makes him so great is the systems and processes. That's what makes him great. And that's how you know his systems and processes work because when you meet him, he's not, he's not like this captivating, engaging, like enthusiastic person, right? And he crushes, I mean, 84 million in volume in one year, like, and it makes it that much more impressive if you get what I'm saying. He's organized and he's got systems and processes that he know works. And so I think that makes him an even better teacher because a lot of these brokers might have better raw talent than he does as far as when it comes to the sales aspect. No, I can definitely appreciate that. It reminds me of the two days I went and spent with Hermosi here in Vegas on site for that two day scaling. Yeah. Did I tell you my Hermosi story? No, what is it? I didn't tell you that. I don't think so. So I'm friends with Alex and how it became friends with them is this was when I had my agency. And I remember sitting in the office and Alex Hermosi post a story that says, hey, me and Leila are going to be having dinner in Colorado tonight. We're going to choose four people to come with. You have to prove to us that you're making at least a million a year in revenue. Yeah, your company is doing that. And then you have to tell me why you should be invited. So I messaged him, I sent him a screenshot on my payment processor and I said, you should pick me because I'm willing to drop what I'm doing right now and fly to Colorado. And he texted me back and said, can you make it before six? I drove straight to the airport, bought a ticket on the way and went to Colorado, had dinner with him and Leila and four other people. And it's so funny. You know, he makes it a thing to really remember people's, remember people's names. I saw him like a year and a half later and he goes, Alex Machucco, good to see you. Like he remembered my name and everything. And so that's that's a thing for him. He really tries to remember everybody's name he meets. And so next time he sees you, he'll call you about your full name. Like that's his thing. But so, but he's a good guy. What would you say, you're one key takeaway for those listening relevant to our conversation? What would be, you know, from out the world of Alex that you might want to share with the listeners? This goes out to branch managers, but that's okay. It's something that I thought was really, really fundamental and I agree with this. It hits home for me because I've ran tons of sales teams, some successes, some failures. And so there's actually this video that Alex came up with maybe a few months ago, but it was, it was such good insight. And so I think what a lot of branch managers do, and this might give context for people who are just starting in mortgage too. But I was talking about like my, my friend owns kinfo, home loans and agave home loans, Marshall and Cody and I was talking to them about this because most people, what they do if they're in a managerial position is they want to play it fair to everybody. And they think that playing fair to everybody means everybody gets the same lead quality across the board. Let's give everybody the same opportunities and see who, who flourishes, that's how you should do. What you should do is give your best leads to your best loan officers and your worst leads to your worst loan officers. Because what you're doing is one, you're making sure you're squeezing out every last penny of what you can possibly get, right? And so you're making sure you're getting all the meat off the bones. And at the same time, right, people, like if you got your best guy making, you know, half a million dollars a year, people will work for free just for the chance to make half a million dollars a year if they can see somebody doing it. And so you inspire all the lower guys, but at the same time, it's like, you know, the, the, and I talked to this. Well, what if like we'll probably have a lot of turnover over here? Who cares? Who cares if you have turnover on your lower guys, but I'll tell you what, the ones who make it through, they're going to be battle tested and hardened and they're going to be in a better position to close all of these leads. And so this is the best way to do it financially for a, for a company when you're running a sales team is because, you know, he even tells a story about, he met with the top seller guy was doing like two million a year, and then he had a meeting with his boss and he was like, Hey, give me all the good leads. Like this guy over here, he's not going to close them, all close them. And what ended up happening was the, the, the company, like he started it in, in just that location, that location increased sales by 30% and then he didn't nationally and made tons of money, right? And so because Alex asked him, like, how did you go as a sales guy to make like two million a year from 200,000 a year, two, two million a year? He's like, I convinced my boss to give me all the good leads. And what happened was is, is the company, as a result of it, did much better, right? And so, you know, that was a valuable lesson that I think I learned recently from Alex. Obviously, I have a ton of it. The worst lesson, I think, that he's ever talked, Jeff, that you're going to, this will resonate with you is create an offer so good that people feel stupid saying no. Why is that the worst lesson because I'm sure you've seen the ads 12 guarantee closed loans are your own. Yeah. I'm not just lying. I'm not going to mention any names, but there's a lot of companies who did that. One of them specifically got put out of business because of it. And so you can't guarantee results. And the people who fall for that, you just have to use some critical thinking. This guy doesn't know me. How is he going to guarantee your results? What they do is they put a lot of stipulations in the contract so that you can never hit that guarantee. It's like, yeah, your money back if you accomplish ABCDEFG, right? And so that's how they get you. Well, just to close this out, my hot take from an Alexism, if you will, which I've applied to my business, which is why I started running ads, dotted line like I did, this wasn't set up to be this way, but was it, you know, simply not enough people know that you exist. And you need to become more well known and more need more people need to be aware of what you have to offer. We're in a transaction recession. Right. We've got this attention economy. And that's what I find of the hundreds of LOs I talked to over the course of a year that they're just, they're too small, they're too little secret agents. And they're wondering, how do I break out of this and add more loans? Well, get more referral partners, scale your reach. And if you've got the budget and the wherewithal, invest in ads to reach more people at scale. That's it. No magic formula there. So I think that's good timing. So for people who want to learn more about what you do, I know we've got a website set up for them. We're going to put that link that up in the show notes. What is that URL handy once again? I think I got it right here leadhackers.io slash NNI and what are they going to see when they go there? What they're going to see is an eight, I think it's like eight minutes, right? That BSL and then everybody that's watching this, we're actually going to give you a free trial. So you could go in, see the software. So guys, if you wanted to, you could sign up for this, steal all of the ads and then cancel. But you won't once you get in, you see how easy it is. We actually onboard you and walk you through launching your first ad. And so we'll hold your hand through it all. And so sign up for a free trial schedule and onboarding again, we're not going to charge you for the onboarding. It's free. Go in there. Launch your ad. You'll start getting leads within 24 hours at the latest and see what it's all about. Okay. So that's leadhackers.io slash MMI. We'll link it up in the show notes as well. Alex, thank you so much for making time, man. I think this is a useful conversation. Yeah, it's an honor to be here. I've watched a few episodes now. And so you're doing something incredibly special and useful for the mortgage community. So on behalf of the audience, we thank you. Appreciate it, man. So listeners, you know what to do? Check the link to the show notes. Go check out the video. Do the free demo. Learn more. Start advertising. Reach more people and your pipeline will be more full. That's it. We'll see you on the next one, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. Bye for now.