Magic Words That Grow Your Influence and Increase Sales with Phil M. Jones

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Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Hey, listeners, what's up, it's Jeff Zimfer. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast. I just want to say, I appreciate you. I appreciate you. You're listening to this. I wish I could be there in your car, in the gym, maybe spotting you on that extra little bit of weight that you're going to push, maybe run on the treadmill together, whatever you're doing while you listen to the, walk the dogs. I don't know. What are you doing while you listen to the podcast? I would love to know, jump into our Facebook group and let me know where you listen to the podcast, right? Is it in the gym? Is it while you're multitasking or doing other things? Is it in the car? Who, you're probably not in your car that much anymore, I guess, with COVID. I don't know if it depends where you are in the country. But I just love the, you know, I want to interact with you guys more at a deeper level. And so you may or may not know, we've got a Facebook group, right? Just for podcasts, radio listeners, you can go to Facebook and just type in Mortgage Marketing Radio and put in a request to join the group. I mean, make it clear we do have some questions that you, we request you ask before you are entered and permitted into the group. Part of the reason we have these questions is to kind of separate the wheat from the chaff, right? Keep the spammers out, keep like the third party vendors who just want to pitch you out. It is exclusively right to the best we can control it, mortgage professionals who have an abundance mindset and are there to collectively learn from each other and we hope to see you there. So go check that out. One last thing too is as you're heading into Q4 here and you're thinking about, you know, your plan for the end of this year, whether it's to finish strong or the new year, look, I don't know where you're at in terms of your focus on purchase versus re-five, but let's just face it, right? A lot of people are talking about how the mortgage, the refinances are going to fade away. As a matter of fact, the latest quote I saw was, I can't remember if it was Stratmore or if it was a mortgage banking association that said that the re-fives are going to drop, their prediction is 56% in 2021 and purchases are going to rise, 3%. So my question is, are you in front of that wave and the wave of purchases, right? The millennials, the large demographics, that's favorable for us in the mortgage and real estate industry in the coming years because of millennials, because of favorable interest rates, you know. So without going too deep on that, my real question for you is, are you prepared to take advantage of that wave? Are you in front of the wave? Are you actively seeking oil wells that will continue to serve you for the long term? Oil wells, by the way, one example of an oil well is a real estate agent, right? Five million transactions happen every year. Real estate agents still control about 84% of those, so they're still at the top of the funnel. Yes, we want to go consumer direct, there's different strategies for that. But if you are looking for the, if you will, the least costly, highest conversion, least effort, return, right, on a lead strategy, it is through the referral of a trusted real estate advisor partner. What I help you do is I help you grow your referral partner relationships without ever calling a real estate agent, without ever begging, without ever chasing, right, without ever selling your soul. How do we do it? We lead with an educational platform that acts as a magnet, attracts the right agents and follow a proven process for you to get conversations and referrals. If you want to learn more about that, you can go to mortgagemarketing.pro, check out the short video we put up, that'll give you more details if that's for you. All right, now let's transition into my special guest for this episode, who I was thrilled to finally be able to bring you. It was quite a long time in the making. And look, as we continue to go through this shift in the market, right, from my book Disruptor Die, How to Survive and Thrive the Digital Real Estate Shift, listen, I think the most important skill we're going to need if we're going to win with Disruptors in the market and, you know, whatever Zillow doing is, I don't know, and all these, you know, we're competing against a lot of big, well-known name brands. How do we not only maintain our momentum, but how do we just simply become more effective, if you will, without adding additional overhead to our role and responsibility, I think the most important skill we need today, as a professional, is the skill of communication, the craft of communication. And a lot of communication is based around curiosity and questions. And knowing what are the questions to ask, the right words, when to ask them. And so I wanted to bring Phil on because I was introduced to Phil, originally by a podcast I did with Chris Smith, who's one of the co-founders of Curator, Chris and his partner, Jimmy, my special guest wrote a book called Exactly What To Say for Real Estate Agents. And I want to suggest that you get this book for yourself, but also get a few copies for your core realtor partners, right, your top five, top 10 realtor partners, or anybody you're prospecting. If you're actually going after agents, you want to send this book to them. Exactly what to say for real estate agents by Phil Jones. It's specific for real estate, and then it's chock full of examples, of phrases, of words, of how to overcome objections, how to have your first consultation, how to really be an effective, clear communicator, how to build quick trust with people, and so forth. I mean, it's one of the best books I've seen when it comes to dare I say the word scripting, right? And you're already scripting. The question is, how good are you? Are you unconsciously using scripts? Most of us do, we've fallen into the rut of saying the same things over and over again. So I encourage you to check the speaker notes for this episode, show notes, and there'll be links to Phil's books. He's actually got, I don't know, four or five books out there. He actually also is known as the most listened to audio business book on Audible for his audio book called How to Persuade and Get Paid. And that is actually a Broadway play, a one-man show, one time that he did on Broadway, that Audible got behind in sponsored and they had a bunch of other sponsors. That's not on YouTube, it's only available on Audible. So if you're an Audible person, check it out, Phil Jones, if you're not, now's the time to maybe check it out. And like I said, I'm going to put links to all that in the show notes to Phil's Instagram page as well. He shares amazing content on Instagram. His handle is, let's see here. And as it, Phil M. Jones UK is his Instagram handle and of course his website is PhilMJones.com. Look for links in the show notes, but I just love the conversation that Phil and I have together about communication, about better questions and words, words, how words, the words we choose and use make a difference. Hope you enjoyed this episode without further ado. Let's get into this week's show. Phil Jones, welcome to the show. So good to be here Jeff, thanks for having me. So glad to have you, especially it's been a long time and I know you're a busy guy in the calendar. The world has changed quite a lot, I think since we originally communicated, yeah, lots of changes going on. So I wanted you to bring you to the conversation as you and I were talking just a moment ago, you and I originally were connected because of the book you co-wrote with the gentleman from Curator, which is exactly what to say for real estate agents, but you've, that's I think your fourth book, right? You have exactly what to say, exactly where to start, how to persuade and get paid, exactly how to sell. I mean, yeah, I got eight or nine titles out in the world somewhere, but three main ones, I want to say how to sell and where to start and then we did the special edition of exactly what to say with the guys at Curator and how to persuade and get paid is an audible original. So that's a audio only program recorded live off Broadway in New York. Really? You did that on Broadway? Yep. So you have kind of like a one man show, one man show, yeah, real. That's kind of like bowiesin. Yeah. Something like that. Wow. That's awesome. Congrats, man. You know what? That deserves right here. Round of applause. That takes a lot of courage. In just self moments, right, is is subsidiary of Amazon decides to back me to do a one man show with a live audience that is recorded in one take that's going to end up being a product for eternity on audible and it's probably my proudest piece of work today. So it may sound like a silly question, but there was a live audience when you did that, right? Yeah. How do you get a group of people to attend a on Broadway, right? The topic of how to persuade and get paid. How do you get people there? And same way that you get people to attend an online course or to come to a seminar with a ticketed fee and and we're the slight added easier of this is happening once and one time only. Would you like to be in the audience? There are partners and sponsors from audible's point of view that meant they wanted to send people. Okay. I got an email list. Friends have got email lists. Yeah, it was it was fun. It was an audience of friends and strangers from all walks of life and all walks of profession which was what my goal was, right, is I wanted to have a subsection of everybody I was producing the program for in the audience. So when I called on examples or you know, led for pushback of objections and key frustration points that people thought were unique to their industry to help prove that they're not unique to just the mortgage industry or the real estate industry or the healthcare industry or the you know, the plumbing industry when they're like, oh, you experienced that too. It was quite nice to be able to see those moments. That's amazing. Well, I'll make sure we put a link to all your resources in the show notes. If I recall though, is that that is one of the most downloaded audio books on that? What to say is in fact, listen to non-fortunately a book on real and which I'm kind of proud of is it's a book that is is listened. They have like a 5.2 or something with the last stats. I've got back 5.2 times listened through, which so it might not be the most sold or the most downloaded, but the most listened to program, which is like that's a cool step, given that's what you're producing it for, right? Yeah, and I think there's a good reason for that is because what you talk about really needs to be I think to really take it on and own it and implement it in your daily life. You need to know it really well. It needs to be like on recall without having to like think about it, you know? And it's a book on spoken word, which I think is in its best medium form delivered in spoken word, right? Is that you can get the cadence and you can get the context with a lot more authority when you're listening to it as opposed to reading it. Yeah. Okay, so by the way, for you listeners here, if you're a mortgage originator, this is a perfect podcast to share with your real estate agents, because as we said just a moment ago, the book, he has one of his books, of course, exactly what to say for real estate agents, what to say to close the deal, to win more listings, etc. You got to share this with your agents. All right. Let me get into it. So I love when I open up the book and like one of the first pages, this really hit home for me. This is one of the things you say on the first page, which is the worst time to think about the thing you're going to say is the moment you are saying it. Yep. When I read that, I was just like brilliant, brilliant, you know what I mean? So obvious. And let me set this out properly. I'm a guy who believes in scripting. And as you probably well know, scripting has mixed emotions associated with it. Through the years, I'm sure you've had people respond negatively to scripting or I don't script. Right. But why, let me ask you that first, why do you think the idea of scripting that word comes with so much like baggage and people kind of want to put up barriers to that? Why do I think people want to put up barriers to is first reason is almost nobody wants to do the work to do it right. So they think the scripting is cheating or shortcutting or not being authentic. Yeah, I hear that all the time and sounding canned and it's not every circumstance is at the same and all of this sequence of reasons, but the little boils down to the fact they're too lazy. And if you think about every great movie that you've ever experienced, which was a moment of the matter, there was a lot of work that was put into crafting that script. If a movie is going to reach its investment level or people want to say, well, how's the script? How's the script? Is it like an important conversation for any piece of media that's being introduced? What's interesting about both financial services and real estate, which I've done a ton of work in, is I'll often start a workshop or a seminar that is based on, so what are the frustrations about friction points, the customers or prospects throw back at you and boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, they can all hit me with a script of everything that everybody will say to them as a reason to not do business. Like, so you know their scripts, right? Wouldn't it make sense that you prepared sequences of words that could help steer you from avoiding those pitfalls or navigating the conversation onwards from those pitfalls in a more proactive basis, because I get it, you want to make it up as you go along, how well is that working for you? And what any professional would do is that we get ready, ready, ready, right, is if you are a tennis player, you want to know that if I'm being thrown an awkward backhand shot that I'm going to have to deliver on tournament day, you want to know I've done this before. And I've done this in drills in a training room environment. And that's what any pro has ever done is they've taken scenarios that they believe that they can resist in the real world and they've hypothetically prepared for them ahead of time. So that when that moment happens in the real world, they can deliver to it. There's another beautiful thing though about scripting in particular, is when you know your word choices well enough, you don't have to think about them in the moment. You can show up to the moment, be present in the moment, let's come back to the analogy of movies. Some of the best movies in the world have had memorable moments that appeared off script and the only reason they appeared off script is because there was a script and somebody could serve the moment better that allowed them to act off of script otherwise it would have just been made up in mumbo jumbo, right? So we need scripts to give a structure, but actually that structure gives you the freedom that you were looking for to not have the scripts, which is kind of ironic, right? Yeah. So structure brings freedom. Structure brings freedom, huh, that's I love that, that's very true. Because then you kind of know like the operating, you know, the parameters of which you're trying to operate within and you can punch in and out of those and get back on track easily, right? Correct. You remain in control, you can deliberately break a rule to then come back to the rule. Yeah, that's funny. I remember somebody's once saying that you're already scripting, you probably just suck, right? Right. You already have a script. The way they answer a telephone, they're scripted in the way that they respond to an email. Everybody who tells me they don't script, I'm like, so you don't have a single templated email that exists within your desktop, that you copy paste and then adjust as you need to to send us a standard response. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. Good. I love the direction we're going here. So I heard you say on a podcast that I was listening to you with you on it that you love two things, words and people or you're fascinated by them, let's say. And words is obvious. So let me just take words. What about words do you find that's fascinating or magical? Is I love how much a sentence can change by the tweaking of a simple word? I like how much people can impact or influence any specific scenarios by thinking about their word choices more effectively. And I also love knowing and then exploring the puzzle of how much people self sabotage their own life through not giving consideration to the words that they reach for. And just find it like funny, both in an amusing and a weird way, hence why I chose the word funny. Mm-hmm. Do you think people, now this is something that you hit on here for me, I'm wondering if people understand, I guess those in a relationship might recognize this, right? But the impact that your words can have, right, negatively or positively, how you say them, detonation and et cetera, right? All of it. All of it. And there is very little that brings attention to all of these things, particularly in the spoken word category. In written word, there are books after books, courses after courses after courses with copywriting and headline ideas and what can be done to improve cool to actions. And you know, we're all in agreement, there's nobody in an argument that says, hey, spending the time to craft perfect copy on the sales page of a website or a brochure is not a good idea. Mm-hmm. Yet the conversations we have with customers, prospects and people are often far more influential than any of that written word, yet nowhere near the same level of tenacity is given towards that part of a process. Right. So do you think if somebody was looking to, you know, obviously you're in sales, you're a sales trainer as part of what you do, what was your one book, exactly how to sell? The sales guide for non sales professionals. Do you think just changing your script, if you will, or the words that you use, use the phrase magic words? I'm wondering if there are actual magic words. Can that actually give somebody a raise? Yes. Mm-hmm. Why? What would that do? There's a few things. Is certain sequences of words will have more effective approaches towards conversion than others? Mm-hmm. Also, certain sequences of words allow you to dance your way through a conversation, so you're at the right point at the right time. By which, what I mean is a mistake that many people make is they start to be able to make an ask for something before they've gained permission to be in the conversation at the right to ask. Mm-hmm. So for example, is you can ask somebody to go and join you as your plus one at a wedding. But if you did that cold, it would be weird. If you did it at the end of a coffee meeting or drinks at the bar after agreeing to meet somebody for a day, it would kind of be the right conversation at the right time. So gaining to that point of permission of being able to make your next ask is important from a word choice of point of view. The other reason, though, that I think is even more profound is that if you, in some way, feel that you have prepared your word to head a time, you show up with two things more in every conversation. One is more confidence, and the other is more confidence. And the confidence itself is something that allows you to be able to actually achieve better results, because you're like, ah, I know what I'm doing here. I've got some tools in my toolkit. I feel more prepared for this, therefore I can show up more in myself for this conversation. Right. A giant principle that is taught through the bulk of my work, though, is it's the person that is asking the questions that's in control of the conversation. And you see, even just understanding that principle and then having a series of prefaces to questions that would allow you to get back on track to search for clarity and what other person is meaning, it stops you from sabotaging. That's where the increased success comes from. See, people simply need to be better at selling is like, no, you just need to be better and not sucking. Suck less. Right. And then what will happen is you win more by default. Yeah. Yeah. Try and part of my principle is not embellish the option of, yes, it's destroy the option of no. If you destroy the option of no is opposed to embellish the option of, yes, you leave yes is the only option, meaning the other person feels compelled to pick it. All right. So my ears perk up on destroy the option of no. Can we get a bit tactical on how one does that and I'm going to take it out of context tell you a little story is one of the roles that I was invited into as a consulting role along in the past was helping a furniture retail business improve its conversion rate with objections. And the furniture retail business had two core profit drivers that were more profitable than the original transaction itself sound familiar to the mortgage industry. Sometimes there's greater profit outside of the core product of the mortgage and there is in the mortgage itself, but finding value to get objections towards as other things is often hard. So here we are in the furniture industry. Two big objections that we had to avoid one was people, two products we were looking to add to the furniture transaction and the objections that were coming from it. One was fabric protection. So adding fabric protection to a couch, more profit in the fabric protection than there was in the couch itself. And the second was footstores like an ottoman upholstered box, again huge margin in that product. Boss is wanting me to help the team overcome objections. I said, wouldn't it make more sense if we didn't get the objection in the first place? I said, well, what do you, I said, what do you really mean? I said, well, instead of trying to put out the fire, wouldn't it make more sense that I find the guy with the matches and stealing from his coat pocket before he leaves the house in the room? It's still got no idea. It's going to be this is what is the most common objection, reason or excuse that people give you as to why they don't want fabric protection on their furniture. And they said strangely enough, the most common reason that we got was some version of I don't need it. I'm dead careful. We don't eat and drink on our furniture, which is where I realized earlier on my career that not all customers tell the truth, right? People say that salespeople are liars. My experience is not what customers tell the truth too, because I've never met anyone who hasn't sat on the couch and had a bite of food or a sip of it. Like somebody's done that, but people say they don't eat and drink on their furniture. The trouble is though, is if they say they don't eat and drink on their furniture, I can't say of course you do everybody does, I have to accept it to be true. So if a customer or prospect says something, it must be true. If you say it, it might not, let's take the other objection that was faced, as I said, but what about the food stall, most common reason why somebody doesn't want a food stall? And they told me the most common reason was that somebody would say they've not got the space, not got the room. Having never seen their home, I can't say of course you put the room. So I took those two things and I write what's called a question tree. I write a lot of question trees for organizations and question trees destroy the option of no. And what I decided to do is instead of selling the benefits of fabric protection of food stalls, I went to work on destroying the reason why somebody wouldn't want one. Let's have a look at this in real time. Somebody's decided they want to buy this three-seater and this two-seater couch. I say, apart from yourself, who will be using the furniture? They say, well, as me and the wife, the kids, the dog, I'd follow it with a leading question whilst nodding, I'd say what and a spot of entertaining to which everybody says, yes, like nobody admits to having no friends. So they've told me they're using this with a lot of people and they're often entertaining. And ask a further question, which is why I call this a question tree. Is it going in the best room or the everyday room? Do I mind which one they pick, best room or everyday room, right? Best room needs to continue to look at best. Every day room is going to take a hammering or win both ways. I say your last piece of furniture, how long did you keep that for? Doesn't matter what they answer. Three years, five years, nine years, 11 years. I say, I guess you're looking for this to last the same time or longer. To which again, everybody says, yes. So they told me they wanted to last a long time. It's going in the best room or the everyday room is often used for entertaining with multiple users. Am I in good shape to recommend fabric protection? Well, of course I am. The trouble is I'm not a fan of good shape. There's a thing I prefer as a thing called certainty. So I wrote another question. See, I learned if I preface a direct question with a simple sequence of magic words, I can get just about anybody to agree to just about anything, providing unreasonable. And the set of magic words I would preface with are the words I bet you're a bit like me. So I learned that if I say I bet you're a bit like me, get home from work, enjoy nothing more than pouring yourself a glass of wine and sitting down on the couch. People will be like me, yeah, that's me. Even if they're a white wine drinker, they'd still agree to the red wine assumption. I'd say I bet your household's just like mine never finds time for a proper dinner around the table every night, the week. More often than night, it's a trail in your lap on front of the box. They're like, you yep. So now they've told me they eat and drink on their furniture. Right. So I've disarmed that potential excuse. There's more to this though, right? I've still got this footstought to deal with. What am I concerned they might say? I'm concerned they might say they haven't got the space. So I come right for it. I say this best room of yours, how big is the room? And it doesn't matter what they tell me. Three by seven, 15 by 11, 52 by nine, I'd say, wow. That's a fair size room. How big is a fair size room? Well, it's like a fair size. So I mean, good shape based on the fact that we've labeled this a fair size room, but I'm not done. Let's say you're buying a three-seater and a two-seater, how would you lay it out in the room? And they try and explain it to me. I'd put a sheet of paper down and say, can you draw it? As they're drawing out, I realized that everybody other than architects draws the room giant and the furniture tiny. They make it space for me in the diagram. As they're doing the diagram, I'm saying, when you're entertaining, what do you do for extra seats? Hmm. They say, well, like we're dragging chairs around from other rooms, some people are sat on the floor and some people are sat on each other's lap. And I'm like, wow, that kind of party. But anyhow, well, I then say, is it what about storage? They say we've never got enough room for storage. And now, again, I mean, great shape to recommend a foot store or an ottoman, but I don't like great shape. What do I prefer? I prefer certainty is what I'm looking for. So I wrote one more question. Bear in mind, this is a British retailer where almost everybody celebrates the same holiday on the 25th of December. So the question I wrote is one of the greatest questions of my career. The question I wrote is Christmas time, where does the tree go? Why? Because if you've got room for a Christmas tree, you've got room for a foot store. I just found it's home for 11 months of the year. Wow. It allowed me to do something really simple. And I know the story's a long way in getting there, but that's the way you need to work around if you want to increase the efficiencies and new conversions, right? Is that was remarkably predictable for every set of circumstances? I could take that series of questions. What it allowed me to be able to do, though, is to understand what selling really is. The selling is earning the right to make a recommendation, which means you should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever invite somebody to be able to do something unless you can say these words first. And the words you should look to say first are the words because of the fact that you said, because of the fact that you said X, Y, and Z for those reasons, what I'd recommend is A, B, and C. It allowed me in this scenario to say because of the fact that you said this is going in your best room and you're often entertaining and you want it to last a long time. What I'd recommend you do is you get your fabric professionally sealed at the factory. Hey, remember the fact that you said when you're entertaining that sometimes you struggle for extra seats. What most people do is they grab themselves with footstore. It can be used as an extra chair. It's pretty useful for storage too. And if you're ever wondering where it sits, it sits underneath your feet. So it allowed me to recommend as opposed to feature dump. And so it just makes that much more sense, right? The old people buy an emotions and back it up with logic. Logically, that makes a lot of sense based on the journey you just took them through. And there's a motion less than the journey. Why? Because what people are doing is seeing themselves in those scenarios. Right. And they're picturing themselves in those situations out. And the same thing would be true in the mortgage world, right? Nobody wants a mortgage. People want to own their home. They don't just want to own their home. They want to own their home in a way that is congruent to the lifestyle they're looking for. So is this something they want to get unencumbered in the shortest period of time? Are they looking for the shortest, you know, the lowest-monthly payment in the immediate term? Do they perceive they're going to be making more money in the future or less money in the future? Like all these things come to light, right? But these are the things that should allow us to be able to make recommendations. No, I love what you said, right? You don't have the right to sell unless what is your permission? A half-time? It's earning the right to be able to make a recommendation. It's earning the right. Yeah, to make a recommendation. Yeah. With life insurance, you have to be able to say things like because of the fact that you said, right, right. But if anything tragic happens to your husband, that you'd be left in a fairly awkward position, and what I'd recommend that we do is that we explore some of the options with regards to life insurance. Right. Now, there's a lot of parallels for mortgage and real estate for those listening. I'm sure you're getting some ideas. Obviously with real estate, right? We're trying to future pays people into seeing themselves in the home and how they're going to use the different parts of it with the mortgage. Obviously, we're trying to, I know myself and many others, move to a more consultive type role in the conversations we have with clients. So that, again, it gets back to questions, 100%. I love that. And better questions, too, as well, which is what we can think about. Well, it's both real estate and mortgage a lot. Is I see lazy questions. Looking for a fixed rate or a variable rate mortgage? Like, like, yeah, right. That's, that's, that's not going to be. No, so it's, it's funny, though, talking about this. It's, it sounds wonderful. And I, I didn't want to leave the original point of why do people have resistance about scripting dialogues. Look at, I'm even resisting using the word scripting to your point. You said, because people are lazy. And I think, look, that's the hard truth. But what I love about, like, the book you wrote, what to say for real estate agents, is you map out so many done for you questions that are simple, swipe and deploy. And their prefaces to questions more often. Right. Do you take people through the journey? Yes. You know, what they are is that they are, they're just invigorators to allow you to have a more meaningful conversation. Well, there are all teasers to give you permission to have the conversation that you really want to have. And most people make the mistake of asking the question they want the answer to as opposed to asking a question that gets them the answer. Say that again. Okay. Is most people make the mistake of asking the question they want the answer to or as opposed to asking a question that gets them the answer? All right. What does that mean? Let's just take a simple real estate scenario, right? Sure. What that means is if somebody is realizing that they should probably be looking in an alternative area than the one that they're in right now, because they haven't got the money to afford what they want or afford within the neighborhood that they're currently looking in and they keep finding things that are a fault, they would typically ask a question. Well, have you considered looking in ABC area? To which is almost certainly going to be faced with a ton of resistance as to why they don't want to go to the other neighborhood because they've got their hair set in this other area. And now all of a sudden they find themselves still stuck in the position for the next nine months of trying to help them find an impossible one, right? How often does this happen like all the fricking time? Yeah. Instead, if you got them to be able to say that they were open-minded to other areas, you might be in a better shape. So you do the dance the long way around. Is aren't to me this is what's more important to you? The geographic location or having five bedrooms and a minimum of 3500 square feet. But that may answer. Right. Well, in reality, the space is non-negotiable. Okay. How would you feel if we spent the next nine months looking in this given area to realize that there was nothing that meant those time, those size constraints within the price budget that you were looking for? I feel pretty darn disappointed. Well, help me understand this. What would you rather we do? Extend the search to neighboring towns and cities or increase the budget. What would you rather we do? Yeah. Well, we can't push more than that number. So it happened. Right. What do you know about or what do you understand about why many people are moving to in certain neighborhood locations? Well, I don't understand the great deal about why anybody moved there. Well, what do you know about how his reputation has changed from what many people thought about it 10 years ago to where it's going in the future? I don't know a great deal about that. Well, how would you feel if I told you that many people were looking to be able to move there because they're in circumstances exactly like yours. And the high likelihood is 4567 years on from now, that will be a neighbor that not only has grown in value, but is also full of more of the kind of people you'd like to live near. I wonder what one of your my favorite phrases from you is, would you be open to? I've been stealing that a lot and sharing it with some of my clients and just in. You have some nuances as well. I'm going to catch you on a tiny little mistake. I'm going to talk about how a word makes a big difference. People see the open-minded question appearing in the book. Yeah. And they use it as a closed question. Would you be open-minded to? Still sounds mildly threatening, mildly argumentative. Would you be open-minded to? Right? Leaving of the witness. If you change the question just to rephrase it very slightly to how open-minded would you be? Now what we've got is even more increased success metrics. I'm not saying would you be open-minded to won't work? It works great. How open-minded would you be? It works better. Yeah, because what it does is it leaves enough in the gray area for the other person to want to lean in to the ramp that you've presented with. And this is where so much of my work exists. It's like, I want to do stuff that says, with words, like, I'm just going to open a crack in that door over there. But whatever you do, don't look around it, etc. Don't look through that door. Please, please, don't look what's behind that door over there. I mean, you promise me you're not going to look behind that door. But I'm going to go missing right now for at least 35 minutes. And I won't be back in any way, shape or form. And behind that door is something you might be interested in. But you promise you won't look behind that door, will you? Right. Like that's what I'm trying to do with so much things with language that lead somebody to do their own little or like yellow brick road. Yeah. What it does is it makes the buying process fun. Right. If you think about most purchases that you've enjoyed, it's because there was a dance involved. Yeah. And it's probably because you invested a significant sum of money. We want to enjoy the dance. Not the tussle. People think people want to enjoy the negotiation. Nobody really enjoys that. They want to enjoy a dance and a trade off. Right. It doesn't want to feel like a fight. That's very funny. Yeah. I go out like when we're early days in our marriage when we're filling our house with furniture and all that stuff. You got to buy. I used to enjoy going out there and see how much the salesperson would engage in a conversation. But most of them down. It's straight up the whole price-based question and that kind of stuff. They don't lead you on it. Then when you find somebody who does to your point, it's like, wow, that was an incredible thing. You what you feel is like you feel like they really cared because of the questions they asked. Yeah. They care about the result of the result of the result. They're prepared to get a few stages further down the tracks. You say something. I have no context on this, but I wrote it down. Show me. You know me. Yeah. What does that mean? So there's a chunk that I've been doing right now to help people understand how to have conversations in this time. And it's a three-part process to say that every conversation needs to include these three critical ingredients in this precise order. And the first ingredient is one of curiosity. Right? Is showing up to every conversation with curiosity first, knowing that you cannot insert your content into somebody's conversation until you understand their context. And if you show up with curiosity, you reach a position of certainty. If you show up with certainty, you create curiosity. So if certainty is what you're looking for, curiosity is the fuel to get you there. Behind curiosity, you're led to a second ingredient of empathy. Possibly missing in almost every conversation is the failure to be able to see the world through the other person's eyes. Best definition I've ever heard of empathy comes from an author friend of mine called John Acuff, who describes empathy as caring about what the people you care about care about. There's nothing cleaner than that in my mind of what empathy is. And we miss that a lot, particularly in high-level transactions, like helping somebody secure the right financing product for their home, is I think we should care about what the person we care about care about. And rarely is that a product a provider or a rate. It's often something very, very different than that. And in every conversation we're looking for, if we're demonstrating empathy, we're hitting what I would call the show me that you know me button. And when you hit the show me that you know me button in somebody's mindset, then you get trust. So you start with curiosity, you move to empathy. Your result is you hit the show me that you know me button, which is what's earned you the right to then have the third ingredient that's required for every key conversation right now, which is courage. And by courage, I don't mean jump out of an airplane courage, or climb a mountain courage, go to war courage. I mean, just the courage to ask for the thing you were looking for, whether that was the business, the information you needed, the advice you were looking for. It's be bold enough to be able to ask. But if you ask without curiosity and empathy first, you're pushing and rude. But if you do the dance in that order, then what you do is you understand the context. You see the world through their eyes, and then you can position your ask through the right lens. Now you don't shoot and miss. Now it's just the natural next step. Right. I love that. I love that. I wrote that down. Curiosity, empathy, and courage. So if I'm going to start to implement this kind of stuff in my sales process, right, conversations, sounds like I need to a lot more time, right, for the conversation. Um, maybe, but more often than not, yes, not always, but more often than not, yes. Which by the way, I don't have a problem with. Sometimes time is no. And you need a lot more time up front. Yeah, right. The first first thing and what often happens if we break it down is say, say, for example, you've got a three-hour sales cycle, it was spread out however long it is. What often happens is people cram a load into the front end, then they get a solid maybe, and then they spend the other half of the time trying to convert them maybe into a, yes, by taking it uphill with everything I teach. It's like, let's spend two hours and 52 minutes of the three hours we have over this period of time building our case. So the final eight minutes is well, of course. Yes. Right, that's what we're looking to be able to do instead. So quite often, it actually shortens the sales cycle and reduces the total amount of time that you need to spend in that relationship. But it does increase the upfront work. Is our number one objective in the initial conversation to create trust? Yes. Is that the ultimate goal, really? Trust me as the person to choose. Yeah, I mean, once trust is existence, then like in your world is, you want somebody to be able to text you and say, hey, should I refinance this and see if we can get it better right? And you to be able to reply, yes. Like, like, that's where you want to be at or no, let's look again in the spring. Right, right. Okay. If all that works being done up front, that's where it can be. Yep. Similarly, like, you know, you want them to be able to shoot your notes and say, hey, I'm thinking to buy two investment properties. Can you run some numbers for me? Like, you don't want it to be pick me over the other yellow guy. Well, and that reminds me of a comparison we often utilize in the mortgage space specifically. It plays in the real estate as well. But that's the difference between a mortgage professional and a call center person, right? You're not going to call a call center person necessarily unless they've done an amazing job and ask, hey, I'm thinking about buying two investment. You're just not going to have that conversation versus if you are a mortgage professional and you've done a lot of things we're talking about here. Maybe use third party tools, you know, that I'm a big fan of like mortgage coach and you present options to people, right? That's when you become a trusted advisor. Well, even more than that though, as well, it's the ability to go backward in their life and then go forward in their hypothesis for the future that earns you that right, even more so. Because I still think the majority of professionals are very happy with the first win. Like, if I can get the first win today, then I mean, good, good shape. And then, you know, I keep showing up. Here's my hatred thing. Is the number of mortgage professionals that I hear call themselves trusted advisors. You have no right to call yourself a trusted advisor. Do tell somebody else calls you, right? It just catches the nuance of the language again. Is somebody else needs to say, this is my trusted advisor. If you're calling yourself a trusted advisor, then move the chip off your shoulder, right? Is what should really come to light and this and you do that through building these relationships. Remember, again, that nobody wants to buy a house. They want a house for a purpose. They want the house to be paid for over a certain period of time or to enable certain things within their life. And your job is to navigate them through all of their property transactions for the rest of their life. So you have to understand what they want to do with their life. Yes, which gets into some people listening might recognize what we call kind of like our dreams and goals conversation. Whereby, it's not just a loan application, right? You've got to get into their dreams desires, but also like really get into their life. Where are they currently? Where might they be down the road, things like that? Yeah, and this is again about how do you go about it? So you want an example of where people do things wrong. You're saying it's the dreams and goals conversation. So they say, tell me about your dreams and your goals. A version of that, yes. And then that's what happens a lot. And I'm like, jeez, people. Where is you better to say, you know, what are some of the things that you have planned over the next three to five years? Right, all of a sudden, what we've got is a move. By the way, let me interrupt you. Sorry, does it have to be in the context of a house? What are your plans? No, just, no, it could be, it could be towards anything. Okay, okay. A question I teach to real estate agents as well is they say, like, how many bedrooms are you looking for? And they'll say, well, I'm looking for four bedrooms. Like, give me the follow up question. Who are the bedrooms for? Like, who are the bedrooms for? Right. Like, the answer to that question gives you a ton. Right. Right. Well, it's for, um, well, right now it's just for my daughter who's seven, but we're still open minded about the fact that we might try again. And we've got a number of friends from out of town. They'll like to come and stay and we've moved away from families. Okay, that context is so useful. Instead, we're like, all right, four bedrooms. Let's plug that into my CRM and this neighborhood. Let's plug that in and let the magic commence. Here are here's 72 homes to choose from. But we'll meet that criteria. It sounds like what you're saying is be more human. Strategically and purposefully. Okay, because you can be human. You can program yourself to say who the bedrooms for. Hmm, yeah, but it goes back to what you said originally, which is curiosity, which I think is one of the best traits of a successful salesperson. Hugely curious as hell, man. And instead of like, you know, what term are you looking for on your mortgage? Is how soon will you only hope into own your home? You mean, have a bit of opens up the conversation about, okay? Right, right. Have you thought about 20 year? Let's look at some other ways that you might be able to do it. Oh, I like to own it in the shortest period of time. So is there any possibility that you might have lump sums that you're looking to be able to pay off for strategic points over the next few years? Well, as it happens, yeah, we get like a two-year bonus that sometimes is pretty decent. So we, so you'd probably be looking for some form of financing that has no earlier pre-payment repayment like penalty. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'd be looking for that. Right, and you can start to actually shape a product that is better for their circumstances. Right. Because you might ask the question is how soon will you hope in own your home? And they're like, well, like in Venice, we're probably never going to own this, because we're only going to be here three, four, five years. And then we look to trade up again. So this is about us being able to customize the home for existing needs. And just have the lowest monthly payment over this period of time, whilst we're working on our careers. Okay. So what you're looking for is the lowest monthly payment right now, knowing that the goal is to be able to build some equity in this piece so that you can then either move back closer towards family once your career is taken up here. Yeah, that's the plan. Okay. Yeah, and how much better does that feel, right? For the end user, I'll use that term. Need to come up with a better one, right? That's the less human. But family, this needs your work. Family. Family. Yeah, you know, that's a good point. A lot of people in industry talk about families helped every year. Yeah. Instead of loans closed, it's a family's helped. Yep. We're served rather. All right, well, let's do this for the remaining minutes we've got. This has been great. I've got a couple of points down around objection handling. Let's face it. Everybody faces some type of ejection of your own sales. And this is what I love about your book. You've got very, if you're looking for tactical people, you got to go get the book. We'll put a link in the show notes. It's exactly what to say. The one for real estate agents, like I said, makes a great gift, makes a good book club, book study, whatever you want to do. All right. I love the transition kind of, I guess that's who you are. You're all about transitions, right? Here's what I love that you wrote. I think this is you. Success is created from doing the basics at a high standard consistently, right? To me, I love that. That's fundamental because talking to people, dialogue, what you say and how your skill level at engaging people, I think, is a fundamental skill. It's blocking and tackling, you know? Let's bring that back to objections here. You said this kind of blew me away. Your presentation should negate the need for questions. The hell are you talking about there? Okay. If you have questions through the consultation process, the comprehensive. When you then present a solution to somebody, the response should be, of course, there should be no need for somebody to come back and say, tell me some more about that or yeah, but what about or how about the other? Is it should just be well, of course? And are you married? Yes. When you asked the question of your wife to marry you, how confident did you feel that she was going to give you a positive response? The sentence serves. There's actually a story behind that, but you want a number? You want a percentage? I want a number. Yeah, where were you at? I was, see, I might not be the perfect example of this, however, to give you a number. I would say realistically, my guts telling me to tell you 50%, but I want to say 70%, but the truth is I wasn't 100% sure, what you said. Okay. So you were shooting early without a huge level of certainty, wishing hoping and praying for this to be a yes. I was like, this is my last shot at keeping this woman. I've got to ask her to marry me. Okay. What's interesting is the majority of people when asked that question, they're shooting with a far higher number. Oh, I know. I know. That's why I knew you were going. I was like, I didn't want to, yeah. And then there's no right answer. There's just a response to the answer that you get. Right, right. I hear people say like 93, 92, 74, 68, but it's normally the right side of 50. So they're feeling somewhere near certain. Right. The, we're both on the same page. Yeah, let's, let's face it. I had to feel certain amount of certainty to do it as well. Right. So I was definitely on the, on the higher side of certainty, for sure. Wasn't 90, but different context. So that's the level we're looking to get to, though, when we're making an uniform of sales presentation, is that what we've done is we've done enough pre-work to say that we're both on the same page. This is just the natural next step. Right. And if it's the natural next step, then you could lead towards that without the need to expect any friction back in the other direction. All that's going to happen next is planning for what happens next. All right, I mean, I'm going to interrupt you again, because this is what I do. I get real specific. How do I know I'm ready to go to the natural next step? Well, let's look at the furniture example that I gave earlier on. Okay. I've collected the evidence of the fact that they say, this is going in the best room. They wanted to last a long time, and they're often entertaining. What I'm doing is I'm like, I'm banking that, I'm banking that, I'm banking that. What else? I'm looking at the saying, I need to collect these, these pearls of evidence for me to be able to say, because of the fact that you said, if I can't say because of the fact that you said A, B, and C, for those reasons what I recommend is X, Y, and C, then I'm pitching and I'm hoping. Now, I would view every sales conversation like a courtroom, where you're looking to the judge and jury for a verdict, but you want to make sure that what you've done is you've exhausted the questioning of the witnesses ahead of time, so that you feel that you've got the best shot of getting the outcome that you are looking for from the jury. That's where I'm coming at this moment. Is that like the attorney never asked? Right. Is that like the attorney never ask a question? You don't know the answer to? Correct. Correct. Or never ask a question that you're uncomfortable with the answer to. Because you've got to be able to have, sometimes a plan B, C, D, and E, right, is that if you don't get the outcome you're looking for, and the beauty of speaking in terms of questions is if you shoot and miss, you couldn't shoot again. Yeah, by the way, it's funny when I said that. I think the one exception to the asking the question, answer you're not uncomfortable with, I guess that would play. I was thinking about the curiosity thing. Of course, you're going to ask questions when you're curious, you may not know the answer to. Right. Right, because what you're looking for is you're looking for that context. Yes. You are happy that you probably have experience in regardless of how they answer, that you have the ability to be able to steer it from here. So, what I'm going to say to the many people make is, is if you were a restauranter, and you were looking to serve the perfect dish for somebody, you'd probably want to ask a good series of questions first, to be able to make sure that you're not dealing with any gluten intolerance, if there's a food preference around, like whether they are vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian, whether they're on any other form of diet, you'd want to know about more, what their favourites are. And the more that you can gather on that, the more confident you would have in saying, here's a perfect dish for you. If what you've said is I've got this amazing dish, it's brilliant, here's all the reasons why it's awesome. Right. You could serve up a raw beef tartar to a vegan activist, and then be remarkably confused why they didn't love it. Right, right. And it's not because the dish wasn't right, it's because the dish wasn't right for the person, which is why it's back towards the person. And it's acceptance that your content without context is only ever noise. Nobody needs more noise in their life. So if you do the work to understand the context, and then you insert your content, now you're helpful. All right, I love that. What do you see? I'm also a big believer in that, and I'm keeping my eye on a clock, so we're going to go fast here and wrap this up. But I'm also a believer in an opening statement of differentiation is important. You feel the same way? Can you explain to me what an opening statement would be? Well, obviously in the mortgage space, people are calling most likely being trained to ask what's your rate, and they have some preconceived notions if they haven't dealt with as individual before. So I like to kind of interrupt that pattern, if you will, and open up with some context or whatever. But ultimately get to, like, here's what's different about us, right? I'm sure most other originate, you know what I'm saying? Go that direction. I like it. It can be evolved upon also with a question. Okay. Such a ask. So if they come in and say, what's your rate? Yep. You say, well, we have dozens of different products, the very between here and here, depending on the only individual circumstances. What do you understand about the different types of providers that exist within the mortgage space within your locality? I understand about. And you watch now they go, well, I understand like I can get my bank or I can go through like a third party elsewhere or like I mean, you'll probably get to a conclusion where they don't understand a great deal. Right. So you could then say, so as well as rate, would it help if you understood a little bit about the different types of people that you could work within this space? So you could find out what was going to be the best fit for you to which every human being on the planet says, well, yeah, of course it would. Right. I then might say, well, the way I see it is you really have three options. Option one is that you can know plug into your bank lending facilities and have a limited pot of resources yet with the transparency of them knowing your financial background and potentially be able to secure something slightly easier but typically a less than competitive rate. Option two is that you can try and get direct to a lender elsewhere by trying to compare and contrast all the different products that are out there in the wild, wild west of a lending portfolio and try and make the smartest move yourself without necessarily the knowledge and understanding of all the key things that you should be looking for. Thirdly, you can work with an independent broker like ourselves who has access to the whole of the market yet is truly focused on you and your success and knowing that what we can do is align the perfect type of product to your unique set of circumstances. So help me understand when you're looking for just the cheapest rate or when you're looking for somebody who understands your circumstances in this entirety. I like that. The same thing, right? It's a patent interrupt. Is what we're looking for? Right. But it's also interrupt with the specific curiosity. Right. Absolutely love that. Okay. So I'm going to, like I said, just recommend people get your book because there's a couple of questions you have here regarding objection handling. And let's just finish with this one when it comes to the phrase, I know people use this a lot. They often say at the end, do you have any questions? Yeah. It's the student. So let's come back to the point earlier on when you said, why do I love words so much? And it's sometimes because a subtle change of words can make a profound difference. If you finish a presentation with the words, do you have any questions? What you suggested to the other person is they should have questions. Right. Yeah, if you've done your job right, they shouldn't have any questions. So you've told them, they should have questions. Yeah, they shouldn't have questions. So in their voice inside their head, they're thinking, what did he or she not tell me? What did I miss? Let's be honest. Let's not understand. So you're likely to bump into objections like it just needs some time to think about it. Some form of stool that says that's pushed us away for another day. Because you've suggested they should have questions even though they don't have questions. Instead, if you swap the words to you have any questions to the words, what questions do you have for me? Now, although certain, they lean in with confidence and say no questions. Now, because they've got no questions, what does that mean? It means that they've got all the information that needs to make a decision, which therefore means that they've made a decision in their head, which gives you the ability to ask for that decision. And you don't ask for that decision. You assume they've made a decision, which is to follow the advice that you just laid down and assume that they followed the advice that you just laid down. You lead the dance to the next step. And here are the words to lead the dance to the next step. It's the words, the next steps are. So the next steps are from here, is we've got a simple application that needs to be completed. We're going to do that through DocuSign or we're going to set up for you now, or I could take some basic details from you over the phone, or whatever it might be. We're just going to lead the next steps through from there. And nine times out of 10, people will go with you, because you've earned the right to lead the dance through the work you've done before the work. Right. Love that. Love that. Love those, just our call of transition statements, right? And there's some psychology behind that as well. I think that's one of those areas. People don't think about to your point about why you love words, because the words you choose, the structure, and tonality and all that kind of stuff have influence, have impact. And we may not realize that we're actually defeating ourselves. And you, I, everybody in these conversations, has a responsibility to lead. And really that's what we are. We have this leadership position. The very reason that somebody reached down to any of the listeners on this show right now is because they believe that you're an expert, which means that you have to consult like an expert would do, dance the conversation forward like an expert would do, and provide solutions in light of the information that you've gathered. Right. That's what you'd expect from your primary care physician. Yeah, just that's a whole another podcast. How we can improve primary care. I know I say that's what you'd expect from your primary care. I expect that's not what we're getting though. That's for sure. All right, listen, you've been very gracious with your time and information. Once again, people please get the links in the show notes there to get one or many copy of bills, books, audios. I'm going to check out that broadway presentation you mentioned about how to persuade and get paid. Is there a video of that as well on YouTube perhaps? Audio. So the beauty of audible original is it exists in that format and that format only. Yeah, fantastic. All right, so we're going to finish this out with questions. What a shocker, right? All right, so I'm going to finish that with two questions. First one, I kind of tried to pick these out for you in advance. Who are your heroes or hero? Who is your hero? One of the other in real life. I don't have one. Is I've learned that if you pin your heroism on any one individual, you end up disappointed. Okay, trust, do you see this card right here? That's out. I've studied success my entire life and any time I meet anybody brilliant at anything, then instead of saying, wow, I ask how, right? And I look to see what I can learn from them. And everybody from me working alongside great athletes, like you say in bold and spending time with my late great-grandmother, right, is everybody in between those spectrums have given me the ability to learn from. So my true hero is like a Frankenstein's monster of brilliance that has been forced together by dozens of people. And that allows me to be able to have this perfect picture that I know doesn't exist in a hero. That is being a hybrid of multiple others. And then I don't get disappointed of getting the meet heroes close up and then thinking that you're just, you're not all that I thought you were. Right. No, it's actually a good answer, good honest answer. All right, so let's close out on this question then, which is the one you ask oftentimes on your podcast, which is, what is your favorite word and why? Oh, what is your favorite word? I'm going to give you one that has been my my most used favorite weird word recently. And I just think it's a brilliant word and it's the word penultimate. All right, you have to break that down for us. Penultimate means like last but one, right? Last but one. So is I think there's so much suspense that is attached towards the use of that word. You're like, this is important and I have more. If you're saying like, this is the penultimate thing that I want to share with you or for my penultimate question or the penultimate piece of information that we need to work through. Plus it's just a word that people don't hear that often. So it's like, what a cool word. And it naturally makes you a piece smarter if you use words like that. So I've been having fun with the insertion of that word subconsciously, like it hasn't been. You haven't used it in a sentence yet. With other people. Oh, I use it all the time. Use it all the time. Really? For example, how you would use penultimate last but one in a series of things. Okay. Well, the simple thing would be if I was bringing a podcast towards a close, I might say, said my penultimate question is, right? And then position out there and like everybody would know, like, it's about to finish, but not quite. Like, he's almost going to finish. Right, right. You know, I got, I got a handful of points I wanted to share about that. And I'll share a point and I'll share a point. And then so my penultimate point is this, which means I've got one more, right? So it's just, it's like a double drama point in it on from there. And it's playful. It's why I like it. It's naturally. If you listen to comedians sometimes break down the joke, they sometimes just explain to you that a word is funny. And you don't know why it just is a funny or word. And penultimate seems to fall into that camp for me is, it captures attention when used in conversation that is different. And I don't know if that is my true favorite word. It is just the word that came to mind when asked in this session. Right. That's awesome. I guess the simple answer I should have given, given that I gave penultimate as my penultimate answer is, is the word exactly. Really? Because I'd like to want to send every time anybody uses it, given its basic being my word. Are you saying exactly? Is basically your word? Yeah, I think so. I think so, is given that we have exactly how to sell, exactly where to start, exactly what to say. I often do use that in your life. In your life, you're like, exactly. Yes, that's correct. Correct, correct. And every time somebody says the word exactly. Is one more little bonus on that? Is I even have my own whiskey? Get out of here. Cool, exactly. What's a drink? Really? Yeah. Is that available in stores? It was supposed to be, and I did it as a small batch, and then I kept the whole quantity, and I used them as gifts and things. That's awesome. That's exactly what I need on this show, actually, is some whiskey. Oh, that's awesome. I love it. Listen, man, I can't thank you enough. I know you're incredibly busy. You get a lot of people asking for your time, and I'm gracious that you've made time for us and our listeners. Like I said, we're going to put links to fillmjones.com and the podcast, your Instagram feed, by the way. I meant to go there. We didn't have enough time, but your posts on your Instagram feed, like the content there is killer as well. So we'll put links to your social media sites and all that kind of jazz. Appreciate you, Phil Jones, for making so much time for being here, man. Round of applause. All right, man. And listeners, you know what to do. If you like this episode, hey, leave us a review. We appreciate you, and we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now. Hey, guys, what's up? Real quick. 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