Mastering the Inner Game in Mortgage Sales

Hey, it's Jeff Zimfer. Thanks for tuning into the latest episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast. So thrilled that you are here. Quick reminder, if you want to go deeper, if you want to engage further, we do have a private Facebook group, just for podcast listeners. And apparently that's you if you're hearing the sound of my voice right now. So what you can do is go over to Facebook and search Facebook for Mortgage Marketing Radio. It's a private group just for podcast listeners. Pop on in there. Let us know that you like to join the group and then what you'd like to get out of being part of the group and what you're going to contribute. So we'd love to see it in over there. There's more good stuff that goes down in the group on Facebook Mortgage Marketing Radio. Okay, question for you. How often do you find yourself struggling with how to connect on a deeper level with your referral partners? How about how to have true meaning and connection with your clients and prospects? I mean, the connection that goes beyond the transaction because anybody can connect on a transaction. And the transaction doesn't really produce a referable experience in my mind. The transaction doesn't typically produce loyalty and people advocating on your behalf. What usually produces that is some type of a connection beyond just the transaction. And if you want to learn more about how to have a deeper connection, if you want to discover what do real estate agents need from you right now? What do your clients need from you right now? Stay tuned because my special guest is going to unpack that for you. Before we get into today's special guest, of course, I've got another win of the week coming to you from our members at my agent classes, the platform where we help you, the Mortgage Originator, instead of chasing agents, attracting agents, instead of being seen as a solicitor or a vendor, we help you be seen as a partner and appear. We help you build your personal brand that creates differentiation, attraction and connection with real estate agents. You know, recently in our community of loan officers at my agent classes, I asked, what are the top three benefits that our Mortgage Originators have achieved by teaching agent classes? And some of the answers came back kind of surprising and interesting to me. Marlene said more knowledge for her to help her be better in her business in marketing and growing her own business. She keeps meeting new agents and it gives her a reason to call real estate agents. Lisa said her personal branding. Travis said deeper relationships, having a captive audience and unique marketing that no one else is really doing. I don't know if those kinds of things sound interesting to you, but one of the things I asked deeply to go deeper with those people that answered that poll question was, what about deals? What about closed loans and fundings? And you know what they said? They said it's a byproduct of all those things that we just mentioned. Jason said broad in his knowledge base for marketing made him a better presenter, gave him a better understanding of his partners struggles and how to help them. And the byproduct of that is when you lead with education and value, right, when you are a partner and appear and you create real connection, when you facilitate change and help your business partners, referral partners solve problems, the benefit of that, the outcome from that is they want to reciprocate and send you business. And that happens all the time. As a matter of fact, one of our recent stories I want to share with you, Kevin Katie, what's up? Kevin recently taught one of our classes. And at the beginning, I love this. Here's Kevin's opener. He had about 20 agents shop for his class. And he opened up his meeting by saying, I'm sure you all have existing loan officer partnerships. But if you are not getting content, resources and information to help you grow your business and you're just getting mortgage rates, then we need to meet and talk further. I am developing partnerships with agents that want to be accountable and grow their business. So if that's you, let's meet afterwards. And when I checked with Kevin, immediately following the class, he had scheduled three appointments. And that's before you even followed up. And that is the name of the game when you're attracting versus chasing when you are aligning with other agents who want to operate the same way you do from a place of learning accountability, growing their business. So I don't know if any of this sounds interesting for you. You've heard our success stories for a number of years now. You can go check out more success stories at mortgagemarketing.pro. That's where you can book a call with me. Let's carve out 30 minutes. Let's have a conversation and see if we are the right fit for each other. If you're looking to grow your agent referrals and engagement without chasing, without co-calling, without paying for leads, but actually being seen as a partner up here and attracting business to you on demand. Go to mortgagemarketing.pro to check it out. Okay. My special guest for this episode is somebody who was a mentor of mine early in my career when I got in the industry in 2003. I don't know if you guys remember, but back in the day, there was a magazine called Mortgage Originator magazine. And that was a wonderful resource of access to people, originators, where we could get a look at what are these people doing that allows them to succeed at a high level. So when I first started out as extremely hungry, still am, right, and consuming information that's going to help me be better at what it is that I do. And this gentleman was one of those folks that really stood out for me. And I originally had him on the podcast back was I think episode 82, roughly, an hour over 320 in. So it's been a minute. And Tim, Tim Brahim is my special guest. And Tim, from 1997 to 2004 was recognized as one of the top 50 producing originators in the United States, reaching personal production when he personally closed 676 loans for a total of 236 million and loan volume ranking him at that time, the 26th ranked mortgage originator out of 400, thousand originators back then we had quite a few more originators. And Tim was in 2004, mortgage originator magazine inducted Tim along with only seven other originators into its hall of fame for his career achievements. Tim then went on to found or co-found the loan toolbox. So if you guys you've been around long enough to remember that with the loan toolbox, had over 10,000 mortgage originators as part of its community, where it was the place to go for education, coaching and resources to help you be a better mortgage professional. And Tim was obviously the co-founder of that. And Tim today continues to serve the industry through his coaching platform called performance experts coaching and a new online community of learning and education called the loan at less. And of course, Tim also has his own podcast called the 360 experience, which is amazing conversations with some of the most successful people in our industry and others bringing education in the areas of business and personal development. And Tim is just one of those amazing people who for me personally every time I talk to you, I become a little bit better of a human being, I think. I hope that doesn't sound disingenuous, but it's true. And I learned how to become a better communicator and connect at a deeper level. And that's what today's conversation with Tim is all about is we're going to unpack what it is that your referral partners and your clients need from you right now. Connection is something that I know is challenging for some of us in the sales business because we want to get to the transaction, we want to just get the deal right, you know, and we're in that kind of like, you know, CrossFit mode. But I would say today more than ever is it's about the conversations that have impact that yes, move forward, right, the relationship to the end result, which is a transaction, but do that in a way that creates real connection and affinity for you. So I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. We link up to all Tim's resources in the show notes, his podcast, his coaching, the new loan app, less platform, I definitely encourage you to check those out. So without further ado, let's get into this week's show. Tim Brahim, welcome back to the show. Hey, thanks for having me, bro. Nice to see you. It's been too long. It has been too long. And you know, we kind of live vicariously these days on social media, perhaps by watching, you know, observing from from a distance. And I've definitely been observing what you've been doing for many years prior to today. And for those who don't know, you were one of the early guests on my podcast episode 81 out of 300 plus now. So thanks for joining my podcast as a fledgling young podcaster back in the day. But for those who may not be familiar with who Tim Brahim is, what do you want to share with the listeners? Yeah, goodness. I mean, that's a big question. I'm just, I'm just another guy, first of all, I mean, I'm a teacher at heart. That's what I've been doing for my whole life. I mean, I was a teacher as an originator, which is I think what made me successful as an originator. I took a very consultative sales approach and really pride myself on I think putting the other person first and putting my agenda second. And that made me great as an originator. I had four consecutive years where, you know, I funded over 500 loans, 676 in 2004, which really dates me. And then I went off to do loan toolbox and retired and then came back and I've had a coaching company for 13 years called Performance Experts Coaching. And I run a really amazing coaching program called leadership 360. And I say amazing not because I'm amazing or we're amazing, although I do, I do have a lot of pride in what we do and what we've created. But amazing because of the community that we've created that I'm blessed to be a part of. I mean, some of the greatest originators at this industry is ever known or my friends and clients. And then recently we decided it's time to do loan toolbox again, but to do it for this generation and at a much higher level. And we started the loan atlas, which has been really wonderful. And it's really fun for me to have a tremendous faculty of teachers that are my colleagues that are just wonderful givers. And then I have my own little show called the 360 experience. Although, man, I look at 320 episodes and I'm in great admiration of you. I'm on episode 49. But I really love doing it. I'm sure you love doing it too. You wouldn't be doing it for this long. Exactly. Exactly. It's a labor of love. You know, it's a passion project. Yeah. Always has been. All right. Well, thank you for that. We want to make sure we dig deep and unpacked Tim's brain and experience and wisdom because you have a lot of it in there. And what I wanted to start with is, A, you've been in the industry a long time. Obviously, wildly successful. But perhaps more impactful for those listening right now. Is you, of course, interact with coach talk with a lot of very successful people in this industry outside of this industry as well. But what I wanted to start with is, well, the big goals, if we can synthesize your knowledge and wisdom that's circulating up there right from all the conversations you've had and begin to carve out a couple of key takeaways perhaps over the last 90 days. And I thought it might make sense for us to start with a mindset because there is so much going on, I think, currently, both within our industry and outside of our industry, that requires we have to have the right headspace first. So yeah, yeah, I'll start there. Yeah. I'm glad you started there. I started with one of my favorite topics. So thank you for that. I've been, I've been doing a lot of teaching lately in the tactical realm of mortgages, scripting, database management, lead flow management, real estate agent relationship cultivation, especially with the NAR ruling. We can maybe get into that a little bit and that one part of your question about what I'm hearing right now, but my my great passion is the inner game, you know, the inner game being you know, the game that takes place between our ears. I mean, that's where the battle is really one, especially in tough markets, like the one that we've had for the last couple of years now. And the originators that are making sure that they carve out the necessary amount of time to devote to the inner landscape or the ones that I think are having the greatest amount of success. And what I mean by the inner game, you know, I'll introduce a topic here of the subject matter of energy. And I think it's starting to become a little bit more accepted. I was kind of the granola California guy, you know, 15 years ago when I was talking about energy and people would look at me like a little cross-eyed like what's he talking about. But I think that more and more people are realizing how real and how important energy is. And I guess the first thing that I would offer Jeff is that, you know, look at the end of the day, one of the most important jobs that we have in our life and in our business is to manage our energy. And there's nobody that can manage it other than you. We each all have that own individual responsibility. And the question would be what is the plan for managing your energy? And just to kind of deepen this just a little, just for those that are maybe having a little bit of a difficult time getting their head around the topic of energy. You know, we all vibrate. I mean, this isn't my theory. This is science. Yeah, science is quantum physics. It's physically proven. Our cells vibrate. We are energetic beings. And you need not look much further. I like to use this as an example is that everybody that's listening here has someone in their life that vibrates very low. And they know it intuitively or maybe even cognitively because when they're around that person and that person isn't a down state and a victim archetype, it's not real fun to be around that. You know, it gets really icky feeling after a while and you start saying, you know, I got to get out of here. I was actually having dinner with my son last night and he was telling me about one of his friends who just vibrates low and he's just having a hard time in the relationship because he's a dear friend. But he doesn't really like being around him. The guy makes the conversations all about him. He's always complaining. He's at the effect of the world around him and a victim to circumstance. And then we all have people in our life that vibrate high. And we may not have associated with that, but you surely have someone in your life that you just love being around. Like when you're around them, you feel more full. You pick up right where you left off. The person is always in a good mood. They always have a positive spin on things and they're very magnetic and attractive as a result of that. So if we look at those two juxtaposed positions of two different people, I guess the question that I would pose is which one of those two people do you think would be the more successful loan originator, especially in an environment where you're competing hard with other lenders in a rate shopping environment like none other, especially in an environment where real estate partners are getting hit on by numerous competitors of yours. And an environment where they are scared right now because of the NAR ruling. So are you going to be more successful if you're that beacon of light that person that is really fun to be around? Like you just like I can't wait till I get together with him or her again because they they always have something that uplifts me or you're going to be more successful if you're the person that people are repelled by and say, hey, I don't really want to be around that person. So, practically and tactically, let's get to that because I know that in our prep before you hit record, we talked a little bit about making sure people had some takeaways. I think it's how you start your day and how you end your day. And I think that that needs to be an integral part of your game plan. What is your plan for your day and how do you begin and how you end? So let's take a look at that. So in the morning, I strongly recommend that everybody have a routine that sets them up for the potential of success before you turn on the outside world. Because let's face it, the outside world isn't very fun most of the time. I mean, you got Iran dropping bombs on Israel and Israel dropping bombs on Iran. You've got NAR rulings that are causing realtors to be freaked out. You've got your stock portfolio going all over the place. Mortgage back securities aren't performing in the way that you wanted to perform. You leave yourself to those devices. It's going to be tough to vibrate high. So that's going to come at you. But how you start off the day gives you some insulation from that if you are starting it off correctly. So a dear friend of mine, Josh Meadow, who's one of the great teachers that I know and a client and a most importantly, very close friend. You know, I used to, I'm raised to look at him like he was some kind of a freak of nature when he would talk about his morning routine that he gets up at 4 a.m. and he drinks his mushroom tea and he does his workout. He does all these things before his day gets started. And I'd be like, bro, like I'm not like that early of the rise or I'm like a 630 guy. And I realized that there's some great wisdom to that early, early wake up. So I get up at about 4.30, 5 o'clock now. And that gives me a good 3 to 3 and a half hour stretch of time before I turn the outside world on. So my calendar, nothing gets put in my calendar before 9 a.m. So I've got that window. And what do I do with that window? Well, I've got my own routine and everybody can have their own routine that resonates for them. For some of you, it may be prayer. For some of you, it may be meditation like me, yoga, like I tend to do most mornings, journaling. And most importantly, asking yourself the question, who do I want to be today? How do I want to show up? What are the qualities that I want to exhibit in this one day, this one day in time that I have? And keeping in mind that every day adds up and starts to create patterns. So starting off my day, I mean, my wife and I have a little thing where I tell her in the morning, I'll say, today I want to be this way. I want to be calm. I want to be funny. I want to be positive in the light of any, you know, dark moments. That's my goal for the day. Now, am I perfect? Do I win the day every day? No, I'm not, I'm not saying that. But to go into it with an intention, a clear intention and to do things that set your day up for success before it gets started is really important. A couple other things and then I'll get into the evening and then we can give it if you'd like or you can ask any question. So I also find music to be incredibly important. There are certain types of music that really lift me up. So when I'm making my breakfast in the morning, I'm always playing music, full disclosure and vulnerable. Sometimes I'm dancing a little bit in my kitchen while I'm making my cup of coffee. I've got some good beat going, you know, to just like, and I'm singing a little bit and one time my housekeeper walked in and looked at me and she's like, what are you doing, man? I felt a little sheepish, okay? And then really from that point in time, when I turn the outside world on, being very mindful of what my intention is. Now here is the bookend and this is something that I've recently implemented that is so important at the end of the day, debriefing your day. What did I do? Well, what am I proud of? Are you journaling that? The debriefing? Yeah, yeah. I've got one of those remarkable tablets now. It makes it really cool, right? So as I get in bed before I do a reading before I go to bed, read a little spirituality, I'll journal a few things about my day, just a quick debrief. What do I do? Well, it's important to start off with what you did. Well, it's important to acknowledge yourself. You know, we don't want to always operate under the stick versus the carrot, right? So like giving ourselves a little out of boy, a little pad on the rear end. Good job on that. You know what? That was a tough moment. You were calm. Good job on making that person laugh. Good job on being a better listener today than you were a talker and not making it all about you. And what did I not do well that I want to improve upon tomorrow? And those things that I acknowledge that I would like to do better tomorrow, not in a punitive way, become the things that are often my intention for the next day. Okay, so here's what I'm going to look to improve upon today. Now, the affect of that, Jeff, is that, you know, slowly but surely you just start to show up a little bit differently. And again, looping back to the top, you know, who do you think's going to be more successful? The person that is actually have some intentionality behind their day and how they're showing up and is vibrating at a high level and therefore attractive or the person who's who's a victim. And I don't think that anybody would refute, you know, the answer to that question. Yeah, I think the key takeaway on that for me is you've used the word at least once that I recall who is more attractive attraction. And I talk a lot about that as well as we want to attract versus chase. And you don't want to be, you know, repelling, right? So if you have the right energy to use your word, right? If you're, if you're, you know, enjoyable to be around. If I'm getting fed, fulfilled, lifted up. And there's multiple ways to do that. But first, forced and foremost, it's like who, like you said, your energy, who you are, your state, who you're being. Um, it may sound a little woo-woo for everybody listening, but the truth of the matter is, is it's an important muscle to exercise. If, if alone, and I know you agree with this, if alone, just for your place in the world, right? Yeah, man, for your experience. Like, yes, great point, brother. I mean, like, what do you want your experience to be responsible for that? I mean, there's nobody else that can have, I mean, yeah, sure, you could, you could blame the outside world on your experience, but good luck with that. I mean, that you're, you know, you ultimately have dominion of your experience, you know, and, and at the end of the day and, write this down, those that are listening, outer experiences are a reflection of inner reality. Okay, what's going on inside you will have a direct impact on what your experience of the outside world is. I've done far too much personal development work in my life to know that when I'm working on the inner landscape, everybody else outside of me is suddenly beautiful. And when I'm not working on my inner landscape, everything else sucks outside of me. And that, that tells me a lot about how important that inner world is to work on. And this is self mastery, you know, being a common peaceful entrepreneur is a critical component to our success. I love that. That's so true. Something that I've had to learn to being a common peaceful entrepreneur is not always easy, man. No, at all, this is all the stuff in the noise. And one other thing, I'm sorry to interrupt is one thing, because you brought up, you, you addressed a subject that I think is really important. At the end of the day, this is a connection business. Okay. The deeper the connections you have, or as I've said for years, a loan officer with the most friends wins, the deeper the connections that you have with your clients, the deeper the connections you have with your referral partners, the deeper connections that you have with your team, and they are willing to go to war for you, because they love you, because you love them, because you have a likability factor, because you're working on yourself, you're learning about yourself, you're growing, you're uncovering your own shit, you're getting rid of it, and you're, and you're aspiring to be a better human. Okay. At the end of the day, you're going to have deeper connections, and the deeper the connection, the more business you do, because people do business with people that they like and respect and love. Amen to that. You reminded me of a phrase, I'm not getting this exactly right, but you may know it better than I, which is something around we're not living life, right? We're just living our experience of life. Like life is just life, it just is, and then there's our experience of it, which is the point about how our interpretation and the meaning and all that kind of stuff that we give it. Yeah, we're projecting, we're constantly projecting our stuff onto the outside world from a psychological perspective. So that's why the inner landscape in the inner game is so incredibly important and one that we must pay very close attention to and devote time to. Here's a pattern in or up for you and maybe some of the listeners. Do you remember, did you ever do the S or the landmark forum programs landmark forum? No, but I'm very familiar with landmark forums. I have a master's degree in spiritual psychology from the University of Santa Monica, and there were a lot of people that I went to school with who had done a lot of landmark events. So I have a great degree of familiarity with the curriculum. So classic story, I remember I was at a point in my life where I needed some of that guidance and direction. And so I was seeking right and I went to one of those landmark forum classes and I'll never forget on the very first day in a very dramatic drawn out way, the speaker opens up the first of two or three days and says life has no meaning. Long pregnant pause. Life has no meaning. And I'm in my chair and I'm like, what the fuck is he talking about me? Life is like, you know, frying my head. I'm just like a bunch of bullshit, right? And then he goes, except that which we give it. Yeah. I was like, whoa, all right. Just like, you know, divided my brain right in half at that moment. I'm like, holy shit, never thought of it like that. And how long ago was that? That was the long time ago. That was 20 plus years ago. Yeah, and see, you can still recite it and remember it because it was it was a truth. That was a truth bomb that was dropped on you and it stuck with your whole life because of the truth to it. Yeah. Yeah. It was just very impactful. And yeah, it had stuck with me to this day and I share that like with my kids and all that stuff. So this is important work though. So I don't want to like, you know, we have to move on and get to some more topics and tactics. But first and foremost, remember, your mindset is everything, right? Because that's the charter, the sales, right? That adjusts to the wins. It's not to go Jim Rona moment. We can't adjust the win, but we can adjust the sales. Yeah. And like, be careful is to what you feed your consciousness with. You know, if you're numbing out every night, knocking down a few cocktails or smoking some weed and, and, and, you know, watching Netflix, you know, horror movies or whatever. And I'm not, I'm not ripping on anybody who does that kind of stuff. But you do have to take a look at what is the impact that it has on your consciousness. And so I'm, I'm pretty mindful of that. Like I, for years, people would be like, Hey, did you read this book? You read that? I don't really read what most people read. I, I'm not, I'm not self-actualized enough to get, be able to get away with, with just blind by the seat of my pants. Like, I, I have a work in progress and I need to continually feed myself with, you know, spiritual context, psychological work, you know, the podcasts that I listen to are of that ilk, you know, I listen to, you know, Sam Harris, I listen to Lex Friedman, I listen to, you know, Andrew Huberman, the Huberman Lab. I mean, I feed my, my consciousness with that type of stuff on a pretty consistent basis, just because I need it. I left my own devices, I, I'm probably a trip over myself. So, I mean, I mean, so, all right. So people, the takeaway here is this was whatever, like, have a routine to prepare yourself for the day and then checks back in at the end of the day to do a little assessment, how to do in a gracious way, don't beat yourself up. And just notice those areas where we probably need a little bit more work, a little bit more sanding, right? Yeah, edges. So I think that's a great place to start mindset because it's important how we enter the current market. All right. Let's then talk about, so there's, there's two, this will probably be the bulk of the rest of our conversation. We can punch it in out of tactics, but there's two audiences. When I'm thinking about the listener right now, mortgage professional, there's two audiences they're speaking to you obviously on a daily basis. One is realtors, the other one is borrowers. And I was looking at some of your content on your podcast. We'll link it all up in the show notes, but you had two different talk tracks that spoke to me and one of them was what do realtors need right now? Can we, can we chew on that for a few minutes? Yeah, they need a friend. They do. I mean, you know, it's, it's really funny because like for, you know, hundreds of years, it seems it's 25, 30 years of my career. We always use this term for for all partners, you know, and there's no, there's not really a lot of weight put on the, the second word, which is partners. And what, what is a partner? I mean, in the truest sense of the word, it's somebody that's rolling their sleeves up with you and helping you and really thinking of you and your best interests, especially in those difficult times, which real estate agents are in those difficult times right now, they're afraid. And there's a tremendous opportunity right now in the market to be a true partner. My good buddy, Ryan Grant, who is a terrific teacher and a client on the faculty of the loan atlas, he, he, I just listened before we hit, you know, before I jumped on Zoom here with you to a voice broadcast that he's sending out to our members with a script that he is suggesting that loan originators use right now to really bring value and partnership to a real estate agent. And, you know, they all have Jeff a really dialed in well-rehearsed presentation to sellers. It's called a listing presentation. And they've been delivering it for the entirety of their career they've had to because they've had to justify their six percent, their five and a half, five percent, whatever it is fees to a seller. And they know what to call out in terms of the value. I'm going to have a drone fly over your house. So I'm going to bring brokers into the property to assess value. I'm going to host open houses and spend my entire weekend here. I'm going to spend this much money on marketing. And all of that adds up to a display of value that makes it palatable for the seller to say yes, I'll pay that five percent commission for you to get my house sold. Well, guess what? Now they need to have a totally different presentation and it's a presentation to a buyer. And they've never had to do that before. So if you can empathically put yourself in their shoes, that's got to be frightening. It would be like if a loan originator all of a sudden had to sell to a life insurance agent. And that was their sole means of getting business. And they didn't have the scripting and the sales presentation in place to be able to justify why that source of business should partner and refer their clients to them. You'd have to develop an entire presentation around that. Might it be that you're the perfect person to be their ally? Might it be that you're the perfect person to roleplay with them on that? Might it be that you as an originator could bring a tremendous amount of value by sitting down with your real estate partners and asking them intelligent questions about the services that they provide to a buyer. Because you know what? Real estate agents that represent buyers do a lot of work a lot. If they're a good agent, they do a lot. I mean, they help them with, you know, sourcing the schools in the different school districts. They show them property. They write contracts and negotiate on their behalf. They help them get aligned with the home warranty company and insurance agent and all these different things. So it would be really wise right now to be meeting with your real estate agent partners and saying, hey, look, let's talk about your value proposition. Walk me through the last transaction you did where you represented a buyer in granular detail. I want to know every single thing that you did from point A to point Z. And let's package that up and place some tangible value to it to where you can most importantly confidently speak about it, not stumbling and stammering. Like I, my wife and I were looking at property down in San Diego County a few weeks ago and we met with two different real estate agents and I just did a little test and I said, hey, with this latest NAR ruling, if we were to work together and you would represent me as a buyer, you know, what would that look like in the way of compensation? And neither one of them had a presentation of any kind. In fact, both of them were in denial saying, well, I don't really know that it's going to go there and I don't think butch is going to change their wrong. I mean, the Department of Justice is involved in this. This is definitely going to change. And a lot of them really behind the curve on this. So here's a little script for everybody to to maybe play with. And I used to use this as an originator very effectively and a lot of my clients use it and it's been brilliant for them, which is I will ask a real estate agent and say, you know, I was listening to this podcast and this guy was talking about the value that I can bring to you as a real estate partner. And one of the things that I realized when I was listening is that I've never asked you to share with me how you'd like to be spoken about by me, how you'd like to be edified by me. So when you're kind enough to refer one of your buyers to me, what other things that you would like me to say about you that you would be uncomfortable saying about yourself because it would come off as being arrogant helped script me with the things that you want said about you so I can really cement the relationship and substantiate value. And when that real estate partner, I mean, there's never one spin a situation where a real estate agent found that to be a bad conversation. I mean, every single time they're flattered and grateful. And sometimes they don't know what to say. And then that's the opening for you to say, okay, let's sit down and talk about all the things that you do because it seems to me that we really need to put together a more substantial presentation of your services and to substantiate the value. And when you're done with that, then you have the right to say to them, and this is the other half that's worth every bit as much, which you might have I shared with you some of the things that I would like you to say about me, some of the things that you may not know that I do when you refer somebody to me that really bring a lot of value to them. Now, they're not going to say no to you after you've had that conversation with them in the way that I've just presented it. And as you share those things with them, because all of us want to be referred the right way. Our batting average, our conversion ratio from lead to client goes up a lot dependent upon the way that we are referred. But most originators don't know how to coach their realtor on how to refer them. And I'm giving you the script that gives you the right to ask for that conversation. And it starts by caring about them and what they need in helping them. And then offering to them what you would like for them to say about you. And then you conclude with this, you know, Jeff, one of the things that has become very clear to me from this conversation and the market that we're in with the NAR ruling is that never before has it been more important for us to be truly partners. Our presentations need to be fused together. We need to play off of each other. And you need to get clients to me very quickly in the process. Like as soon as you communicate with them, you need to present me as your partner that handles the financing aspects of the transaction and get them over to me. So I can cement the relationship for you and speak highly of you just as you've spoken highly for me. And we need to turn up the communication and go back and forth. Because in this precious market, we need to solidify as many opportunities as we possibly can. Yes, I love that. Thank you for walking us through that for those listening. Hit rewind, write it down. That is a lovely way to engage on both sides. And it's funny. You mentioned this. I guess it was top of mind for me because on our internal coaching call this morning, I asked a question, which was, what is what should be one of the mediative possible objectives once you have a conversation with that referred buyer from the real estate agent? So I want to just kind of test the group and see. And you know, people are talking about like, of course, a fair amount of them start to focus on themselves and everything like that. And as you and I both know, like, no, one of the very first things you should do if it was a referred to you from the agent is edify the agent like as soon as possible on that call because it it it not only does what you said there in terms of it. Well, let me say it this way. It for me, it creates confidence in the buyer that they made the right decision choosing that agent. Yes, I think them to refer you the lender. And it's always easier to sell somebody else and it is to sell yourself. Yeah. So in a partnership, what if your realtor was phenomenal at selling you and you were phenomenal at selling your realtor and everybody's job got easier and you could say things about each other that you couldn't say about yourself. Yeah, you know, now that I think about it just to general on that for a second is like, yes, we want to addify the realtor for the obvious reasons. But the underlying objective that we just did though was we helped the buyer feel more confident and isn't that really the goal, right? Yes. To get active in the market and feel confident that they're doing the right thing. Yeah. So it's like it looks something like this like to just a role play it out for a minute and like, hey, Jeff, you know, first of all, it's really nice to speak with you. And I guess the first thing I want to say is congratulations on working with Terry Moirler as your real estate agent. I mean, I, I don't know how you met her, but I want to make sure that you know how lucky you are. I've been working with Terry now for seven years and I mean, she's just flat out the best in the area. I've seen her in action taking great care of buyers. I wish all of my real estate agents that I work with took care of their buyers and the way that Terry does. She's a tremendous negotiator. She understands the market. She knows what real value is in this market. I mean, you're in terrific hands in working with her. Something like that. And that's going to make the buyer feel a lot more confident. And then I think you and I, we can keep playing this out. And I know you know where I'm going next, probably on this, but not to steal your thunder. But like one of the questions that I'm sure you have asked in the past and coached other people around is then asking that buyer to then let the agent know what was this experience like working with us right on that buyer consultation. You know, actually, you're not stealing my thunder. And that's not something that I ever did. And that's a great idea. I mean, like I absolutely buy into that 1000% as an important piece is at the end of the dialogue after you've done your presentation. You've presented three, four different loan options. You've consulted them on the importance of investing in real estate and brought forward your true value proposition as a proactive manager of debt to then ask them to, hey, if you found this to be valuable, I would really appreciate it if you let Terry know because it's important to me that she knows that I'm doing good job for the people that she's kind enough to refer to me. Yeah. And that just nails it down even further. And then of course, as we know, it's like, how many lenders, how many buyers referred to agents, how many of those buyers are actually texting or messaging back the realtor to say, hey, I just wrapped the call with Tim and his team. It was amazing. Thank you so much. Like that never happens. Yeah, no, it's a great point. Really great point. Well, that's a good, good tactic to use. Let's then go to the flip side of that is what do buyers need? We'd kind of probably, you know, touched on a little bit, but in today's market, let's assume it's a first time home buyer, right? All the issues around that. What do they need? Well, they need a lot. I mean, we could probably go on for an awful long time on this, but they need education in today's market. They need an originator that is truly going to proactively manage their indebtedness for them on a go-forward basis. And what that means is not just putting them into a loan and then getting so busy that they forget about them, but managing their database in an effective way, managing the relationship in an effective way to where you're providing ongoing value and making them aware of opportunities to have cheaper money when they become available. They need referrals to other ancillary financial service providers such as CPAs, financial planners, life insurance agents, et cetera. And if you're not doing a phenomenal job of that, then you need to turn that up. You need to be a conduit for introducing. You need to refer out at least as much business as you're expecting to get in return. If you refer out as much business as you're expecting to get in return, you're going to get way more business than you ever even dreamed of because you're going to have a lot of people that owe you. But the big kill shot in my opinion on all of this question is what they need more than anything is your empathy and understanding. They are scared. They don't know if they're making the right move. They're frustrated. They keep hearing the interest rates are going to come down and they haven't. Inventory is non-existent. They're getting into loans that are frightening for them. And many of them are frustrated. How many pre-approved buyers do you have right now that you've approved in the last 18 to 24 months that haven't been able to find property? They need your empathy. They need your understanding. They're going through a tough time. They want to own a home. They they're being told by their parents that they shouldn't buy. They're confused. I mean, they're getting all kinds of information from all kinds of sources. And the loan originators love to talk Jeff about lack of loyalty. Like I hear here all the time. Ah, it's market. You know, these these buyers aren't loyal. Loyalty is earned. It is not gifted. It is not a right. So my question is, okay, if they're not loyal, then have you taken a look at what you might not be doing to earn that loyalty? See, this goes back to the beginning of our conversation. Are you at the effect of, are you a victim of circumstance or are you learning from the lack of loyalty and going, huh, okay, well, we take a look at this. What are some of the things that I might not be doing to cement this relationship and to continue to nurture it, to make sure that that when it does come time to buy, you know, I've been saying this a lot lately to clients. It's like, look, and this is a little slightly provocative analogy. Okay, but this is like dating. You first start going out with somebody. You're under your best behavior. You're treating them well. You're putting your best foot forward. Then you get into a relationship and it goes on for a year or two and we start to get lazy. And that laziness causes a lack of loyalty. And that's when we have infidelity and people just taking each other for granted. Okay, so let's loop that back to buyers or pre-approved buyers right now. Look, the reality of it is that you put your best foot forward. You got them to say yes, they got their paperwork in, you deployed your team, you got them approved, and now you're waiting for them to find a house. Well, what's your plan to nurture the relationship and to create that loyalty to make it difficult for them to cheat on you? That's what I want you to be doing. I want their values to be challenged. When it's time for them to buy a home, they need to have in the forefront of their consciousness, their values, their values of loyalty. But did you put them in the position to where they have to question their values or did you make it easy for them to just go with the credit union or the online lender or the other realtors lender or whatever it is that you're competing against because you didn't stay in touch with them. You didn't show empathy. You didn't continue to have value to them. When you were doing buyer consultations, if you can recall roughly how long on average those conversations were. Yeah, I can recall very vividly. They were initially two to two and a half hours. See, love it. Time out. Time out. No way. Initially, yeah. Really? Many years. For many years. For probably the first five years of my career, from 92 to 97, I was the king of the two and a half hour loan application, man. I knew their kids' names, I knew their birthdays, I knew where they were taking their next vacation. I knew it all. I'd spent a long time getting to know them. At some point in time, my volume started to really kick in. In 98, I did 301 loans. That was my first giant year. I had to scale. I could not effectively do that two and a half hour application anymore. I had to figure out how to streamline it and to add a considerable amount of value in much less time. It then just very simply became a two conversation process. The initial conversation was just all about me asking them the questions that I needed to know to evaluate this deal and whether or not they could qualify. Most importantly, what programs are probably the best programs for them to be considering for me to present to them. I get off that call in 15 to 20 minutes. My standard line was, I'm not a big fan of throwing a bunch of rates, payments, closet costs, tax deductibility, principal prepayments, strategies, things of that nature at you over the phone. I think it's unprofessional to do so. I want to do some homework. I want to do some research on your behalf. I'm not going to charge you anything for my time. I want to talk to a few lenders. I want to put together a comprehensive set of numbers and I want to send it to you by tomorrow at five o'clock. Then tonight at five o'clock, they would get it 24 hours early because I wanted to set up the under-promising over-deliver and then I would send them in FedEx, my personal brochure so they got a feel for who I was as a human being. What my family looked like, who my team was, et cetera, and it was incredibly impressive. Next day, I would call them up. They got their spreadsheet the night before 24 hours early. They got my brochure in the mail and then we would dive in deep. It would be about a 30-minute conversation where I do all of the consulting and help them arrive at the right loan decision for them. My close was the softest close that you've ever heard. I would say at the end, I'd say, Jeff, after all of this discussion, it's very clear to me as a professional based upon what you've shared and what the market's bearing right now that that five one arm at no points as an example is the loan that you should be moving forward with. Whether it be with me or with somebody else that does what I do for a living, that's what I recommend to you and it's just up to you to let me know if you'd like to proceed with me. That's it. That was my close and they would be like, well, I want to go with you and I'd be like, okay, great. And then we would move forward. But I never like hard-closed anyone. It's not my style. Sure, sure. Wow, that's really cool. I've always appreciated your dialogue and the ability to communicate with people in an effective way that puts them at ease and allows that process to feel natural to move forward. So I just want to acknowledge you for that real quick. Thank you. I think I think it's really at the end of the day is an ego-less approach and I think that's the key. And when I say ego-less, what I simply mean is not making it about me and making it about them. I really, really have tried very hard my whole life as a loan regenerator and as a coach who really look empathically at what that person's experiencing and what they need and make it all about them. And the question that I'd like to pose to everybody is, might it be that that's all you need to do? Then the more that you make it about them, you get what you want. And in a market like the one that we've been in the last couple of years, that's hard because people are in scarcity. And when we're in scarcity, we become very tunnel-visioned in our focus and we're invested in the survival of ourself. And in that state, we tend to hold on to what I need to do to take care of me, but they feel that. They feel that. And they also feel when you're making it about them and then you're very attractive. Well, that's good. Yeah, I like to fall back on this saying that if you show up to serve, you can't lose. Right? Absolutely. That's really cool. Speaking of serving, by the way, we're almost out of time and you mentioned at the beginning the loan atlas. I was a huge fan and user of the toolbox, loan toolbox back in the day. Would you mind articulating briefly what that is and how people can learn more? Sure. It's a big question and I'll try to be super concise. The loan atlas is as Ryan Grant puts it, the NBA for the mortgage industry that it's never had. It is a online educational platform that covers every aspect of being a great originator and a great human being. It is everything. It's founded upon the eight disciplines of origination mastery. Two of those disciplines are personal, mindset, health and person development and time and task management. And then it also covers essential knowledge, system for selling, including all the scripting, marketing mastery, including database management, realtor marketing, etc. team and leadership excellence, systems of customer service and freedom and legacy. And it is taught by 17 of the most giving and talented faculty teachers that the industry has ever assembled. There are over 50 hours of educational content currently in the loan atlas and over 200 educational learning modules complete with scripts, presentation materials, etc. And then we have seven live calls a month and we have a vibrant community message board forum where people are helping each other all the time. So it's big. It's a lot and pretty exciting. It's this generation's loan toolbox. Now I know why it's called atlas because I was wondering what was behind that name but now it makes sense. Yeah, it's based upon the eight disciplines of origination mastery are based upon climbing a mountain. And at the peak of that mountain is your freedom and your legacy. And base camp is essential knowledge. And the two personal disciplines are your Sherpas that help guide you up and scale that mountain and the loan atlas platform is the roadmap to getting to the top of the mountain. That's cool. So if you're listening and you want to learn more, check out the show notes. It's the loan atlas.com plus you have a coaching company for performance experts. We're going to link this up in the show notes and you have your own podcast as you pointed out earlier, the 360 experience. And if you like what you've heard today and you want to go deeper on, you know, I'll call it Tim's approach, right, which I think is different than a lot of other quote, coaches out there. And you'll kind of like this vibe. Then I encourage you to check out any of those resources and we'll link all that up, man. Thank you so much. Yeah, the coaching company I'll just touch on that very briefly and just say we take 12 clients annually. This is the only private one on one coaching that I do. It includes two retreats, an eight day business and life planning retreat and Costa Rica and a five day implementation retreat here in California. We're currently accepting applications for this year's group. So if you're interested in exploring that, go to the performance experts website and learn more. Cool. Costa Rica can't complain about that. That's a pretty good place to do that. Have you ever been there? I have not, but the family and I are considering going in December actually. Oh, well, I'm your guy, dude. Like I mean, I live there a part time and I've had a home there for 17 years. So I'm really I'm truly mean it from the bottom of my heart. I'm here to help you plan that that family of vacation, for sure. I will take you up on that request because you've got to figure out like which side of the island and all that stuff, right? Well, first of all, it's not an island. Sorry. Yeah. But yeah, no, you're not the first person to refer to. You definitely want to be on the Pacific side. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, 100% especially with your family. I can totally totally give you a lot of great information and help you just design it. We'll dig into that off record. How's that? Sounds good, brother. All right. So people, you know what to do. The links are in the show notes. Tim, once again, thank you so much for this wisdom lesson today. You're so welcome. Thanks for having me, Brian. Thank you, everybody for watching. All right. Listeners, if you like this episode, please follow the links. Share it with somebody that you think would get value out of it. Leave us a review if you're inclined. And we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now. All right. Well, thanks for tuning into today's episode. Hey, you got a question for you. Are you struggling to get engagement and referrals from real estate agents and feeling like you're constantly fighting for business in a crowded market? What if I told you there's a way to attract agents to a provide unique value that helps them grow their business and generate referrals on demand, helping you become the dominant loan officer in your local market? Look, I've was an originator for over 10 years. I understand the frustration of feeling like you're just another player in a sea of competitors and you're struggling to stand out and get noticed by the agents that you want to attract and engage with. What if I told you this way to flip the script and position yourself as the go-to lender in your market, attracting agents, not chasing, not paying for leads, not co-calling, but actually generating referrals on demand. 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