The #1 Sales Mistake Your Making That's Costing You $$$

Hello, my friend. Welcome to this episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast. I'm really excited to bring my special guest to today's conversation. And if you just happen to be a real estate agent who is listening to this podcast because your mortgage partner shared this conversation with you, I want you to thank them after you listen to today's conversation. The reason why they shared this conversation with you is because they want to pour into you and help you succeed in today's market. And this is just one way that they're demonstrating their commitment to helping you succeed is by sharing this conversation with you today. So please let them know that you appreciate the sharing of this conversation and then get with them about some of the ideas that are shared with how you can partner up and execute on some of these ideas and strategies to help you both succeed collectively in the market in 2025. So this week my special guest is Sharan Sivatsa, president of Real Brokridge. He joined Real in December 2022 and since then the company has taken off like a rocket ship. Here's some key highlights since Sharan joined the brokerage. It's increased the number of agents by more than 200% going from around 7,000 agents to I think it's upwards of 25,000 agents now at this point. Real brokerage moved up from number 11 and number six in the 2024 Real Trans verified brokerage rankings by transaction sides. Real is now recognized as a top 20 brokerage with over 21 billion in sales and despite industry challenges in 2024, Real Brokridge saw an enviable growth in its share price, reflecting strong financial performance and investor confidence. What Sharan brings to the table is an emphasis on the importance of comprehensive training programs, revenue sharing models and innovative technology solutions. As you'll hear in today's conversation, Sharan believes that one of the key areas that agents need to get better is in skills, skills around dialogue, skills around marketing and technology, and today's session is a clinic on fast, fired, rapid pace ideas for you to start implementing in your business today to start to capture more market share and start to have more conversations so you can have more transactions. And so without further ado, and by the way, if you want to connect with Sharan, make sure you check the links in the show notes where you can follow him on Instagram, check out his YouTube channel. There's a ton of content that Sharan puts out there that's just free training for you to become a better agent or a mortgage professional and I encourage you to check out the links in the show notes to connect with Sharan and learn more. So without further ado, let's get into this week's show. Sharan, welcome to the show. Jeff, thank you so much for having me. I just want to say this before we get started is a lot of people don't realize how much effort this takes to get the gas on, to think about a show, to research them, and then package and deliver both in conversation and post-production to get it to folks so that they can consume like a good 30-minute worth of like package knowledge that they can use for their lives and their careers. So could us do you, man, for taking the effort to put all this together? I know a lot of people appreciate it and so do I. Appreciate that very, very much. It's a labor of love is what it is. Started eight years ago over 350 episodes now, so I must be enjoying it at some level. Okay, so let's just jump right into it. Here we are. It's basically February 3rd, 2025. You know, I've been using this term transaction recession. You obviously are very up close and personal with the general vibe from real estate agents in mortgage as well. How would you ascertain? Let's just take that term transaction recession. How would you respond to that? What would be your take of the current state of the housing or real estate market? Yeah, so I think whenever you analyze anything today, you want to give it some context, otherwise you don't really know what to compare it to, right? And so if we, what we know what happened recently and that would be kind of like during the pandemic timeframe was we were in a momentum-based market. The consumer was moving faster than the agent was and so we, the agent was reacting and responding to whatever was happening to the momentum that the consumer was generating. Made a bin, a chance to move away, made a bin, a chance to work remotely, made a bin a chance because they got some liquidity in their house or low rates or whatever. It created this momentum-based market. When that momentum-based market changed, the agents didn't know what to do, per se. And so it quickly turned to a skills-based market. And a lot of people are unwilling to accept that a skills-based market exists because the average everyday agent assumes that they have the skills to run a transaction. But the problem with having the skills to running a transaction is you have to be in constant practice of having the skills to run a transaction. And when you're in a momentum-based market, the skills of running the transaction dramatically reduces. You're just reacting to whatever the consumer is asking, the market's moving fast. You have like 70 closes. Everything is accelerated. And I think what happened in the, like the two years of the pandemic is an agent, the everyday agent forgot to be everyday agents. That's what happened. And then when the, when the slowdown in number of transactions hit, which is what you're calling a transaction recession in a lot of ways, you know, we have, today we have roughly 1.5 Asian million agents in the United States called licenses. We have less than that in active inventory. So you have less than the number of active homes for sale that the number of agents have. And what does that mean? That means that, oh yeah, we see agents saying, oh, 70% of agents didn't do a deal in the last 12 months. Now, that is not a surprise. Like it's interesting that agents think that that's a surprise, but that is not a surprise. What is important here is the other 35% that actually did the deals. What made them better? And the everyday agent is unwilling to accept that their skills made them better. And when I say skills, and here's what I mean, is the, is the ability to talk to a client? Is the ability to actually have a conversation to get them from maybe to a yes? Is the ability to solve a transaction creatively? Is the ability to actually work with a lender partner and not look at them like a vendor? Small things like that are big deals here. And I think our everyday agents have lost their skills. So if we can just go, and here's the word that I hate, Jeff, like the whole back to basics, if anybody says back to basics, you just want to punch them. Because no, I'm dead serious, because back to basics means going back 30 years and doing what they did then. That is terrible, because 30 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, four years ago is not what we have today. Right? The back to basics conversation is said by coaches and consultants who have never talked to a client in their lives. That is what back to basics is. It is a smart thing for them to say to make agents feel better about themselves, make loan officers be better about themselves. Back to basics is terrible. What we want is sharper skills. In today's environment, the average consumer knows more than the average agent. How do we have a better skill? And I'll give you an example, right? Because your audience likes this. The number one thing that agents will do is we'll say they borrowed the skill from run random script book from some random coach that says, oh, Jeff, have you ever had any thoughts of selling? Like, there cannot be a dumber thing to ask anybody. And the reason is this, right? I'll tell you, my next door neighbor is a life insurance agent, right? And he said to me, he's like, hey, Sharon, I had a bunch of agents come by a knock on our door and they asked me a question. I said, what? They said, well, they said, hey, knock knock, have you ever had any thoughts of selling? And I said, well, what's wrong with that? You know what he said? He goes, well, that's the dumbest question ever. I said, why? He goes, well, that would be like me, Sharon, walking up to your door and say, knock knock, have you ever had any thoughts of dying? Right? And the reason is nobody says, have you ever had any thoughts of selling? Because some coach who's never actually talked to a client in their lives actually told a person, oh, I'm going to ask this, nobody wants to be asked the question, have you ever had any thoughts of selling? Because it's two things, one, it's sleazy and two, it's leading the witness. Instead, what do you ask? That's what I mean by having bad skills. Instead, you ask this, you say, I call this the game plan frame. And you say, hey, Jeff, has anyone taken the time to sit down and walk you through what it takes to sell a home in today's market? Now, that is skill, right? So I'm asking, has anyone taken the time to sit down and walk you through what it takes to sell a home in today's market? Now, if you said, oh, yeah, my cousin is an agent right here in Orange County and he laid out a great plan for me. Now, that makes sense. That's cool. So now I know that I have no shot at this business at all. But instead, if I say, have you ever had any thoughts of selling, that's dumb. So while somebody thinks that that is skill, it's not. And that's the difference between the 35% of the agents that are winning and the 70% of the agents that don't have a deal right now. Wow, that's awesome. That's a lot in there. Do you think that technique of the door knocking and using that phrase is trying to play the numbers game of just catching the right person at the right time? Well, think about this for a second, right? When we are in JV sports, numbers make sense. You're like, hey, I tell my son, hey, dude, you're playing hockey. Take as many shots on goal as you want and one of them will go in. That's JV, right? If you place in the NHL and he has 200 shots on goal and he makes one goal, he's going to get kicked off the team. So again, I actually think brokers, owners, managers, coaches and consultants are the entire reason why agents, like everyday agents don't get support. It is my fault. It is my fault. I am taking responsibility for this. And the reason is this, right? The fact that we think, the fact that we have been taught that sales is a numbers game is a lie. Because what it says is, hey, you just put in more effort without any skill and eventually, you know, even a, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn, right? Like, that's not the answer, right? The answer is, imagine this. Why does, why do you like Steph Curry? Why? Why? Because because his efficacy is efficiency ratio is so much higher. For every 10 shots he takes, he makes nine. That's why. So we don't, people don't realize this. We, as the world gets smaller and as more information, as the consumers have more information, you're going to get less at bats. When you get less at bats, you're going to start to paying higher cost for lead. A higher cost for leads means more cost for conversations. It means you have to talk to more people. So if your skill is not good enough, you're, guess you're going to say, well, I talked everybody in Facebook lead suck. Well, that's not it. You just don't have good skill. So I'm a big proponent of not saying, oh, you know, it's a numbers, it's not a numbers game. It's a skills game, right? If you and I went into the marketplace, I can don't knock four doors and get 12 deals. I say it again, I could don't knock four doors and get 12 deals, not four, right? That is the skill. And so if agents can switch their mindset and say, wait a minute, how can I turn one opportunity to? How can I turn the game plan from? So I'll give you a really great example. So a lot of people will say, I talked this game plan from yesterday to a bunch of agents. I said, hey, has anyone taken the time to sit down and walk you through what it takes to buy a home in today's market, right? And then they'll say, well, not really. Now, most agents don't have the skill on what to do next, right? So now what you've asked a nice soft question, what is the next question? The next question is called a when then frame. Or like you say this, hey, hey, Jeff, why don't we, right? It's called a why don't we so that? Hey, why don't we get together for a cup of coffee, right? And before your coffee gets cold, I will walk you through the seven or eight things that are actually are important in buying a home in today's market. Now, what have I done? Why don't we get together? Incidentally, you're like, man, I don't want to get together with you. It's going to take two hours, blah, blah. No, before your coffee gets cold, that means it less than seven minutes. I'm going to walk you through that. Now, what does it do? It dramatically takes away all objections, right? Small little things on skill changes the ability for you to get more appointments. So if I get to an open house and 20 people came into my open house, and I'm able to sell set 20 or 20 appointments versus the everyday agent that's like, I need more open houses, I need more open houses. Like, yeah, dude, you got 12 open houses and you said one appointment. Like you suck. Right? But no one taught you the skill because he just told you that you need more ad bats and more effort and it's a numbers game. And so you con yourself into believing that your lack of skill and the market's changing is what's not getting your results. But you never want to focus on one, two, three things of skill that can get you better results. What I heard a lot of in there in terms of like there are different skills and the one you're kind of hitting on right now is language, right? The ability to use language in an effective way. How do you recommend, because it's funny, I would agree with you there that a lot of people are not skilled with language. But any recommendations for agents to get better at that? Yeah, totally, right? So here's an interesting thing. I actually think scripts are good, but you have to check the source of who wrote them, right? So most of our script books today that exist in our marketplace, most of them, especially the popular ones, Jeff, were written by somebody 49 years ago, who's crusty old right now, who's never talked to a client in their lives, right? Like no, no, it's the truth, though, right? That's what I know. That's why I'm laughing, because I'm getting a visual in my mind of some of these people. And I don't, I actually think they mean well, I think they have really good intentions. But I was in an 11.5 million dollars thing appointment yesterday with one of our agents, right? I'm handling the objections day to day, I'm not saying I'm amazing, but I'm just saying I had to learn very quickly because otherwise my agents, I have 25,000 agents, my agents lose trust in me as the ability for me not to have the modeling skill to help them, right? So here's how you get better on the skill. Number one is want to check the source of where you're getting this information from. If that person has not talked to a client in their lives, then I would, I would be a little wary of getting, I woke up in the morning and I wrote a skill on an expired, like that's dumb, like you shouldn't do that, right? The second thing is a lot of people don't realize this, but if if they, if you're an everyday agent listening to the show, you should go back and listen to my scripting. When I started scripting, I changed my tonality, right? So it's not what you say, it's how you say it. So I could say, hey, hey, Jeff, has anyone taken the time to actually walk no, right? I have to, it's an empathetic tone. Hey, Jeff, I don't, I don't start her by the way. Has anyone taken the time to sit down and walk you through what a truly takes to buy home in today's market? What am I doing? I'm, I'm manufacturing safety, right? Tonality is super important. You're performing a little bit actually. Of course, right? And so the second, the second thing is to kind of think about tonality, like if I'm saying something, it is not what I say, like I, it's not what I say, I have to figure out what is the core emotion that I have to deliver in this. Right. So I'm delivering empathy and safety. Hey, has anyone taken the time to actually do this for you? And then I'll say, hey, would that help you? Would you possibly be interested in like walking through what the plan may look like so that it could help your family? Yeah. And so, yeah, I want to jump in here for a second, because I'm curious. That's actually the word I was going to use. What I'm hearing in your tone is curiosity. Sure. And I'm wondering this gets maybe a little deep psychologically here, but the degree to which the agents who succeed with dialogue of actually having some natural curiosity and empathy versus, oh, I've got to use a script that makes it sound like I'm curious. You know what I mean? Like the best people, the best communicators are ones who are just coming at it right from the heart and being naturally curious. Would you agree? 100% and he's the interesting part, Jeff. You even did it right then. You said, would you agree? Right. You had the curiosity on whether I agreed or not. Right. But the crazy part here is as soon as somebody hears what may be written as a potential objection, they instantly go to an objection handler. Right. Right. Instead. So I'll give you an example. Yesterday, the client set to us in the appointment, $11.5 million. He said to us, he goes, so Sean, I heard that we don't have to pay commissions anymore. So I can instantly go to a commission handling objection in my head. But instead, what did I do? I said, how do you mean? That's it. Right. How do you have no idea how he heard or what he heard? No, no. So now he has to validate to me what he heard so that I can have enough information to actually solve the objection. Most people take the objection and they're like, hey, I need to solve the objection. This is an objection handler. They let them give you all the information so that you know what objection to solve. Most agents will approach things to solve objections without knowing what objection they're trying to solve. Most of the time, it's not even an objection. It's just an unanswered question. And so number one, figure out the source of who wrote the script. Number two, figure out what emotion needs to be delivered around that. And number three, when you read the script and it feels awkward, if it feels awkward, it is. That's it. Right. You're going to be awkward to deliver. I'll give you an example. If you feel like someone says, oh, this guy actually said this to me when I was in, he said, oh, I need to think about it. Well, why didn't we think about it together? Two, two heads are better than one. I'm like, are you an idiot? Who says that? You will tell your grandmother that? And that's the test, right? The test is, would you tell your grandmother that? If you will tell your grandmother that, then it's okay. Because then you know that you have enough softness and rapport in this entire conversation. So the third is, if the script feels awkward, it is. A lot of the time people will say me, oh, Sean, you know, I have imposter syndrome. I'm like, you have imposter syndrome because you are an imposter. You don't deserve it. Like what are you looking for? Like making you feel better? No. So I always ask them, like Jeff, so Jeff, for example, do you feel like you're an imposter being a podcast host? No. I'll tell you why. Because you have over 350 episodes. Then you've stacked the proof in your favor that you are who you say you are. Right. Right. That's why you don't feel like an imposter. But I will ask you this. Three episodes in. You're like, you felt awkward. You had no proof to stack evidence in your favor that you are who you say you are. Now, if an agent is soft kind and emotionally well scripted, they don't have to worry. They're not imposter because they just want to have a thoughtful conversation in service of the client. And so if they have that, they're not reading off of a script, but they know that it's not awkward and so super easy. And that's why all of this is easy. Like I was on the, so after the appointment yesterday, Jeff, this listing appointment, the agent said to me, he's like, bro, why do I, when I go on appointments with you, why don't we get any objections? I'm like, because I have a conversation. I don't try to solve an objection. I don't try to crush an objection like you're from stage. Like I'm just saying, how do you mean? Oh, you're curious about that. So like the guy said to me, he goes, well, the other agent said it was worth that he could get a, he could get a 13 million. And I said, huh, why not 14? But like, that's the truth though. That's the truth. Right. And I'll give you the zinger and all of this, right? So a lot of agents right now are worried that other agents are buying the listing, right? And, and, and, and, and, which is, which is okay because right now when you, when there's lower in, by the way, everyone needs to understand this. When there's lower listing inventory, agents would rather accumulate listing inventory. They were rather just call, by the listing, called the higher price and just take the listing. But we also know that it's not healthy for the homecoming on the market and the process, et cetera. So literally, I told him this yesterday, I said, hey, Mr. Mrs. Client, would it be okay if I shared something with you about the real estate industry? And they said, sure. I said, in the real estate industry, we have an inside baseball term that we call buying the listing. Let me explain how this works. The agent will tell you a higher price than they can, that can actually get to get you to sign the listing. We call that buying it. And then, when they're inside the process with you, they'll get you to negotiate down. Now, you may not know this, but since you're in a contract period, you can't really do anything. So you're in a stalemate. Either you reduce the listing and they do more marketing or you don't do anything and it just sits on the market and it leaves you in a tough situation. And they're like, huh. And I said, may I give you a way to protect yourself? What do you think they said? Of course. And I said, this is really simple. Did Jimmy tell you that he could get you 13 million? Yeah. Well, you should call Jimmy and tell him this. You should say, hey, Jimmy, we are open to going with you on the 13 million. However, we have one condition. If during the term of the listing, you ask for a price adjustment, the listing is automatically canceled. This is what you call skill, right? Most agents don't know that because now they think that they have to get in the appointment and and and refute Jimmy the agent's credibility on why Jimmy doesn't know what he's doing or how he think you can't do that. If you know that they're buying the listing, now I'm giving the client a chance for me to protect them. Now, whatever happens in that transaction, I am the star. I either get the listing or I don't get the listing and they love me anyway. And if they don't get the listing, it's not going to sell. I'm going to get it anyway because I looked out for protecting them, right? Small little things like that. No one teaches because they've never talked to a client in their lives. Yeah. That's savvy is what that is. That's experience. Yeah. Exactly. Right? Yeah. I love that. Hey podcast family, are you tired of chasing down real estate agents for referrals, making cold calls and feeling like you're just not getting the results you deserve? 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And don't just take my word for it. Head on over to mortgagemarketing.pro or check the link in the show notes and you can read real success stories for mortgage pros just like you. So if you're finally ready to grow your agent referrals without chasing and have fun doing it, check out mortgagemarketing.pro today. Okay, so the first big takeaway is language. Get skilled at the ability to speak to other people. Be empathetic, be curious. It's kind of what I jotted down there. Obviously understand your industry so you can sound smart as well. And this whole turn back to the basics. Does that mean you're not implying? What pops on my head is this other kind of catchphrase, which is conversations leads to contracts. That's ultimately what we need to do. It's be having conversations with people. Let's talk about that. So all conversion happens in conversation. I'm a full believer that that's sales 101. However, here's the fundamental thing that's broken in our industry, which is people think branding drives conversations. People think me saying, hey, Jeff and Sharan are number one, that drives conversations. It doesn't. So they say the just listed postcard, for example, like just list is good. However, you've taken a what you've done for 100 days and you've combined that into two words just sold. And so it doesn't show proof on what you did. So my suggestion around all of this is there are two types of marketing. Marketing makes sales easier, 100% agree. But there are two types of marketing and we have to be very clear as to which type of marketing we're using. If we're using brand based marketing, we're trying to get our word out there. People get to know who we are. It's just awareness. But to get a response, we have to use what we call direct response marketing. We need to create a response from them in some way so that we can start a conversation. And all conversion happens in conversation, right? So is there something that we're saying? So putting your phone number on a bus bench does not start a conversation. Because as I'm driving, I'm not looking and picking down your phone number. Right. That makes no sense. So the bus bench is actually a branding tool not a direct response to. If everybody took away all their phone numbers from bus benches, they actually will get more phone calls. I'm dead serious, right? Because if I said, hey, if I said the resident agent, like the resident agent resident investor and resident dad in Orange County, California, and I put my face on the bus bench, now what did they remember? Resident agent resident dad resident investor. Now the next time I run a Facebook ad or I send them an email or they come to an open house, now they're like, wait a minute. You have already pre-framed who the brand is. Now I can run a direct response campaign. Most agents don't have the ability to run a direct response campaign. For example, every agent should send this. They should send an email to their database. So they should look at their past their old open house registries. By the way, lender, letter partners can totally help with this process. They should get their old open house registries called from 10 weeks, 20 weeks, 30 weeks ago. And they should sit down at Starbucks and with a cup of coffee because they don't have to talk to anybody. And they can look at the name. It says Jeff and they have a phone number. And they should literally text you and saying, are you still interested in buying a home in Orange County? Question mark send. That is direct response. Because now that text forces a response to start a conversation. Now one of three things can happen in that text, right? Number one is you can get and everyone's and the reason people don't do direct response is because they're not skilled as to what may happen with that direct response. So if I send that text to you and I say, no name, nothing. If I just said, are you still interested in buying a home in Orange County? Question mark send. You can do one of three things. One, you respond with who is this? Because you have no idea who this is. And what agents do is they freak out, right? Instead, all you have to do is to say, hey, this is Sharon. We met at 123 Real Street. And by the way, consumers don't know addresses. Only agents and consumers know all these that. They don't, right? The one with the big red door. Now they remember, right? And then you put a picture of yourself as selfie. And then you ask the question again, are you still interested in buying a home in Orange County? If you don't do that, then you don't have the ability to start a conversation. So that's what, so now they know, hey, if they tell me who are you, I have a very clear response to that, to that framework, right? Here's the second thing that can happen, right? They can say, yes. Are you still interested in buying a home in Orange County? Yes. But who is this? There's a big difference that that's called variable change. They have said, yes, they're still interested. But they don't know who this is. Now you say the exact same thing. Hey, it's the Sharon. We met at 123 Real Street. The one with the big red door picture. By the way, since you're still looking to buy a home in Orange County, has your criteria changed? Because now I respond to the yes. Again, I generate the conversation. The third is they just ghost you, right? They don't say anything for two days. Then what do you do? Well, it's really simple. You take a picture of a expired cancel withdrawn, make me move pocket, whatever. And you send them a picture of the home, just the front picture. And you say, hey, this is one of the homes that recently that we're looking at for our clients. That is off-market parentheses, not on Zelo, right? Are you still interested in buying a home in Orange County? Now it shows proof that you have access to something that they don't have access to that generates a conversation. Small little thing that can generate a conversation. So people now can use this transaction famine as we're calling it, but drive more results by generating direct response conversations as opposed to saying, look at me. I'm number one. Look at me. I just so look at me all of that because all of that goes to the trash. Jeff, I actually talked to an agent. He said to me, he's like, Sean, I send out like a 2000 postcards on EDDM. And I'm like, good job, bro. He's like, my goal is to ensure that when the consumer holds it and they're walking with my postcard on the way to the recycle bin, they remember my name. I'm like, bro, you know that your postcard is so terrible that they're going to trash it, but you send it anyway to make yourself fail better. It's got no direct response to it at all. And you know, what he says to me, he's like, what would you do differently? I said, this is what I would do. I would set a blank postcard with a QR code and an arrow that says, this could change your life. They'll scan the QR code, it goes to your video. Now they're actually watching the video because they tactically engage with their postcard because that is direct response. They respond it to something that you send as opposed to walk to the trash can and you play EDDM for that. And you think that your coach said that's a good idea. Wow. Because they're playing the exposure game, right? Repetition over time and all that kind of stuff and yeah, top of mind awareness. So you just showcase a second skill. We talked about the ability to dialogue and converse and things like that. But the second skill, I put that under the category of like modern selling. The ability to leverage, you know, to grab this thing, the phone that I'm holding up, which I often say like learning to use this video, et cetera, you just demonstrated a texting example, but this is a new skill. Learning how to use this, right? And I think there's this gap, which you referred to earlier, that we haven't caught up with. Because that's a strategy, you know, that I would guess most agents adding the photo is the next level of that. Like most agents wouldn't think to do that at all. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason is because most agents are wired with a branding mindset, right? Because they, because, and by the way, I grew up in the luxury markets. I'm the first one to tell you that, you know, your stuff's got to look good. But, but the, but the everyday is like, oh, man, that, that, that postcard looks really good. That design is so elegant. Like the elegant design does not get you conversations. Like we got to generate a conversation. So you have to create something for a person to respond to get you a conversation because all conversion happens in conversation. Are you a fan then of like, you know, the ugly yellow signs and all that stuff? I, so I'm a little different about that. I am not of like, I don't like to make things ugly on purpose. Like I think that's dumb, right? But I want to, I'm, I'm very, I'm a big fan of doing things in native environments. So if, if it's text message, I want the text message to look like a text message. If it's email, it should not look like a newsletter. Like no one woke up in the morning saying, oh my gosh, I'm really excited for Sean to send me his flowery newsletter today. Like with a bunch of like pictures and just, no, I'm checking email while sitting on the throne. Like it needs to look like email, right? And so, so I want the email to look like email, read like email, all of that. So I'm a big fan of native, natively looking communication. So if you're, if you're doing a video, it needs to look like an Instagram video. If you're doing a Facebook post needs to look like a Facebook post, you don't want to like jar people and be like, okay, that's dumb. So I don't want to go out of my way to create an ugly piece unless it's a strategy. But because otherwise it makes it looks like you don't care, right? And so I think a lot of people don't realize I'm not saying do ugly things. I'm just saying do the best you can, but don't, don't sacrifice direct response for branding because you could brand all day and then assume that when something happens, someone will think of you, but Jeff and Sharon are doing direct response and eating your lunch. That's the big difference. Okay, so I think the big takeaway from part one of this conversation so far is skills. You've got to build up skills. You've got to become a modern agent, right? Get with the modern times. Use the tools of today's modern consumer, right? So my other question is this is then there's two primary things I'm thinking in my head, but I want to take this question first is, you know, I saw a report come out recently, might have been a NARA report about what do you, I can't remember if it's sellers or I think it was buyers. What does a buyer value most from a real estate agent? And I thought this was opposite of what it used to say, but if I remember correctly, the highest one on the chart was help them find the right home. Correct, right? And then like the second category that I've often seen over the years is help with the process, understand the process. So what do you say to that? Does the consumer, is that true? Because I noticed you, you know, in your example brackets, not on Zillow, like to talk to me, to walk me through that, is that really, like if I'm thinking right now, so here I am in Vegas, been here seven years, maybe we're looking at a second home, Idaho, whatever, like how does that play into the mix of the consumer's mindset of help me find the home? Is that really what they think of an agent for? No, so this is really interesting, right? So a consumer does not believe, my wife is the perfect consumer. She's on seven different drips, you know, and seven, she gets one of those are, is a Zillow elert and one of those is a redfin elert. By the way, she likes the redfin elerts more than anything else because she likes these, it's aesthetically pleasing for her. Right. And I've seen most people tell me that, right? And so even though an agent doesn't believe that, that is, that is true. I don't, I don't believe that the modern consumer is has the mindset that an agent is going to help them find a home. I do not believe that. I do believe that the modern, the consumer believes that they will find the home, they will narrow down the search, they will do most of it. And then maybe the agent helps them kind of dial in the process. Now, most agents will probably disagree with this because they want to have more of an active role in the process. But before a, I would say nine out of 10 consumers have already started their search before they've ever talked to an agent, you know, and so they are aware of the marketplace. The question then becomes, I actually think the, the modern consumer is unaware of the process and they realize that they, they realize the agent is just a, a natural part of the process that they can't get rid of. But they don't know why. That's the problem. They don't know why. And I think it's the job of the agent to explain to the client that why they do what they do. And, and I always, I use these words often. I say, hey, good process and good process alone drives good results. So I always say, you know, hey, you are not hiring the agent. So, so I'll give you an example. Yesterday, same, same, everything go back to the listening appointment. Yesterday, the client asked me, he said, I asked all my, I asked all my, I've asked all other two agents. I'm going to ask you guys this too. And he says, what should be higher you? Now, very interesting question if you, if you, if you think about it, right? And this goes to the heart of like what consumers want. And I said, I really don't think you should. The guy's like, he starts laughing. And I said, no, no, I didn't mean it that way. But you got, you got to create tension, right? What I meant to say was, you're not hiring us. You're hiring our process. You're hiring our process that we have implemented for the last 10 years. A process that is actually delivered, you know, two hundred and twelve homes in the last 12 year period across price points. A process that two hundred and twelve families have prepaid to get us this entire blueprint that we're going to deliver you a process that you don't have to pay for, that all of these other clients have to pay for. And in fact, I'll tell you, Mr. Mrs. Klein, you are going to do this and it's going to help the client after you, which is why it is our job to bring you off for that you want, at a price that you want, a terms that you want. And we do that with good process. How important do you think a pre listing package is? So think about it. It's interesting, right? So there's only two things that happen in a pre listing package. Again, most agents don't know this. They assume that their coach told them to drop a pre listing package out, but they don't know this. So two things happen in a pre listing package. Number one, you deliver a pre listing package and nine out of 10 pre listing packages are never opened, right? Never, never open. They think they are, but they're not. Never open. And the one person that opens it is the extreme analytical anal person who found the typo on page seven. So technically speaking, it is useless to do a pre listing package. But I'm actually a good fan of this. So let me tell you how to do the right pre listing package. What you want to do is you want to do this. You want to take a, you know, I don't know what they call it in California. They call it a property profile. Some kind of title public record report, right? You do want to take a title public record report, maybe a couple of testimonials, etc. And some and then put it in a in a brown envelope, like a vanilla envelope. And I do this and I do this to all listings that I go on with our agents. However, hide the price point is. And on the back of the envelope, I write, please do not open the stall or meeting tomorrow, right? And then I tell the agent to slide it under their door and then use that to reconfirm the appointment. So what you do is you say, hey, Jeff, just drop something off for our meeting tomorrow. Can you just let me know if you get it? We'll see you at four. So you text back that you got it. So now you have appointment confirmation. As opposed to, hey, Jeff, I'm just checking in. Are you good for tomorrow? Bad, right? Now, if I've dropped that off, now there's social accountability that you have to keep the meeting, right? So that's number one. When you get to the appointment, most people don't realize this, this is white coaches who have never talked to a client, don't understand this, right? So when you get to the appointment, it's very awkward. It's very awkward because you're like, oh, hold on. Let me take off my shoes. Where do I put this back? Like, it's a really terrible opportunity. Like, so when you sit down, you don't, you want to say, oh, you ski an aspirin? I ski an aspirin too because somebody from 40 years ago told you that where these skis important for you to have rapport. But that's actually not what you want is you want mechanical rapport, not emotional rapport, right? Because they know that you're trying to sell them something. Here's crazy part. So I always say, when I get into appointment, I sit down. I'm like, hey, uh, this is really simple. Two words, two phrases. One, hey. Hey, Mister, thank you so much for having us. Where can we sit down and strategize? I don't do the tour first because the tour first is the worst thing that you can do, because you're walking with their head behind your, in front of yours. And you have no context of anything that they're going to say. And you're like, oh, I need to see the home before I give you the pricing, no one's asking for the pricing in the first two minutes. So you see where can you sit down and strategize. But then when you sit down, here's what I ask. I'm like, he do you have the envelope that I dropped off yesterday? And then they bring it to you know what they say. And as soon as they hand it to me and what I say, Jeff, I say, did you open it? But here's the best part. When I say, did you open it? What am I trying to do? I'm trying to establish something. So one of two answers, right? First answer they say is, oh, of course not. We didn't open it. You told us not to. And here's how I respond. Oh my gosh, you're the most perfect clients ever. I want you to have full visibility in the process. I just wanted to make sure to not stress you out in this entire process, which is I told you not to open it. Let's open it. I'll tell you exactly what I mean by this, right? That's part two. Let's say they say, oh yeah, I opened it. I didn't read your message. You know what I say? Oh yeah, you're the perfect clients no matter what, right? Because I have nothing to hide from you and you should open everything that I give you. I just wanted to make this process easy for you. Let's actually break this down. And they both of them laugh. Now that pre-listing package has a very specific reason for me to actually start the meeting. Every other pre-listing package doesn't because then they start the meeting with questions and objections, which you are not ready for because you never framed it in the first place. This is what skill is, right? It's super interesting because, and I'll tell you, I've got over a billion dollars in listings taken. I haven't lost a listing appointment and I don't know, 15 years. It's the same process over and over. And the reason is, it's not that I'm any better or worse than anyone else. It's just, I know how to work the psychology because there's a skill associated with it. And instead, everyone else is like, oh, I'm just going to do the tour. I'm going to lose rapport. I'm going to try to reframe. Then they don't know where the conversation going. It's 20 minutes into the conversation. They tell me that their neighbor's kitchen is better and everything's done. That's every single listing appointment. In fact, if I just control the appointment, with just that one pre, now you can, you can add the pre-listing package to my mineral envelope and it works. But you and I can talk right now, but I don't have any notes. I do this from memory, right? Everything that we're talking about, you can, every single person in every year on a show cannot do what I do from memory because they don't do this day to day. And that's super important. And I'm saying I'm better. I'm just saying the more skilled you are, the more money you make. Yeah, no, that's absolutely. You've got to stacked up. You're very intentional with your processes, obviously, as well. All right, real quick before I run out of time. So we've got mortgage loan originators and some agents listening to this as well. I'm a big fan of integrating the mortgage professional into the process. What, how do you architect that or suggest that for your agents? Dude, I think the number one most underutilized unfair advantage for real estate agents is not working in tandem with their, with their loan officer. Now, the first thing I will tell you is, if you're a real estate agent listening to the show with Jeff, one, good job you're listening to the show. Number two, stop calling them a vendor. They are not your vendor. They are a partner. And let me tell you how they become a better partner. The better they can become a better partner if you integrate them into how you run your business. There's two ways to integrate them into how you're about on your business. Number one, whenever you are, if you're an agent, you're going on an appointment. By the way, loan officers that you're listening to this, you should tell your agencies when they're going on a listing appointment. Every single agent should know that when they're going on a listing appointment, they should call their lender first, especially if it's a lender driven or if it's a, if it's a mortgage driven purchase market, right? Like Vegas, for example, I think what's 80% of homes have a loan on them when they're on their own purchase, right? So you say, because what is the client going to ask me? The client's going to say, do you have any buyers? But I can say I have 3,000 buyers in my database with the client doesn't believe me. Instead, what I should say is, oh, yeah, actually, we have more than buyers. We have qualified buyers right now. I want to show you a voicemail that my lender, my lender partner, Jeff just left from me because I was briefing this with him. And they play this voicemail Kardashian style on in the appointment. So the appointment should, I hit play and the appointment should say something like, I think I shared this with you at forward, right? It's something that you should say. You should say, hey, Sharon, this is Jeff, super excited that you go on this appointment on, you know, in this area. In fact, we actually have 32 pre-qualified buyers that are in the 1.2 to 1.3 million dollar price range. And I'm pre-qualifying a few more. As soon as your home is ready and your clients give you the okay, I'd love to share that with these 32 buyers, you know, as a heads up. And that'll, because they need to buy a home in the next 60 to 90 days. As soon as you're ready for pre-marketing, please let me know, because I'd like to get it out to them. You play that in the appointment. Now, now, you are showing the agent, you're giving them access to a buyer pool that they never had with a legitimate proof-based source that only you have. And the nice part is all the loan officers have all these pre-qualified buyers. So you're not even lying, which is the greatest part in this process, right? So that's kind of a number one. That's a no-brainer. Every single loan officer should integrate their listing process with their agent partners, because the agent should call and say, hey, Jeff, I'm going on this appointment. Can you leave me a sharon voicemail? You'll leave him a sharon voicemail, and they should play their voicemail in the appointment. It blows their mind when you play that voicemail in the appointment, because no one else does that, right? Right. Here's the second way, is after open houses. I don't think most agents take advantage of this, because most agents do the open houses, they at best they may do the one follow-up phone call saying, hey, thank you for coming to my open house. Most of them will just do a video and text it to all these people, but they don't do the follow-up, right? This is called the middleman frame. And I love it when there's an integration of the lender partner here, where the lender partner starts to call that list and says, you can say, hey, Mr. Mrs. Client, my name is Jeff, and I'm a mortgage lender with XYZ company. I'm calling on behalf of Sharon Trivaz at Real. Sharon asked me to give you a call because all his private clients are blah, blah, blah, and I wanted to see if I could help you just dial in XYZ to get now that's insanely powerful because the lender partner knows if they go through that list, those are hot buyers that came into an open house. The agent feels good because he called on behalf of the agent and the lender partner feels good because now they have something live to work on and is very integrated in the process. We need to find a way to integrate the lender partnerships into our real estate business. Otherwise, you'll always just treat them as a vendor and that's where the relationship breaks. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, because you're creating wind winds for each other. That's awesome. Those are two killer strategies right there. All right, you've been incredibly generous with your insight, knowledge, and experience. I want you to just go rapid-fire real quick on an answer to this question. Then we're going to close out with what are you excited about for 2025? I had to ask you this question just because of who you are in the industry, you're obviously very well experienced and have a great, I think, take on the industry as a whole. What is your quick take on the net net impact of the NAR settlement to the industry? It's said nothing burger. Okay. All right, cool enough said. Then let's close out on this. What are you excited about? What's got you amped up? Really looking forward to whether it's a project or something coming up for the rest of this year? I believe that we are going to see artificial intelligence be a very key part of our industry overall, both on the consumer side and looking at stuff as well as on the agent side and doing what they do. What most people don't realize? If you've ever done the job of an agent or a loan officer, you realize that almost 70% of what we do is very manual and mechanical. If we can take that away, we're not quite there yet from a piece of AI that can do all of Jeff's work. We're not quite there yet, but I don't think we're that far off. As soon as we get that, something amazing starts to happen. It forces the agents to have more creativity, more creativity on marketing, more creativity on skill. I don't think it takes away the agent skill. It dramatically takes away all the mundane busy work and the error prone work that agents have to do. I'll give you a really simple example. We built a species of technology at real and it's not commercial or anything. It's a function of AI where normally if there's a signed purchase contract, Jeff, I would upload it to the system and our brokers would review it. They would go through all the 96 pages of the contract and tell you that you're missing a signature on page two. Well, if there's 100 contracts admitted that day, our broker team's probably not going to get there for four days no matter how big the broker team is. Well, now what we've done is we have a piece of technology that as soon as you upload the contract, it knows wherever the initials and signatures have to be and all the key fields, it scans it all of it and said there are three errors instantly. That alone, you can instantly just download it back, go get the other's docuSign and come right back and you're done. Now that back and forth confusion is immediately solved and now you may think that's an insane piece of tech but it's foundational to how an agent runs their business. So what I see is going to happen is you're going to see more creativity and more skill have be in the agent world because all the admin work has taken away. When you take away all the admin work, when you take away all the mundane work, what stands creativity and skill and creativity for that with creativity. I mean as ideas, brand, content, marketing strategies, etc. Skill is when you're actually talking to a client, what do you do? How can you solve a problem? How can you say what you say? Those two can't be replaced. Those are very, very hard because in the middle, the AI can do the manual work but it can't come up with the creativity and it can't actually talk to the client yet. So I'm really excited to see agents live better lives, not being stressed out by the meant, the mundane stuff they need to do but with the extra time, maybe my offer to them would be, hey, spend more time on the creative stuff and spend more time on the skill stuff because that will get you paid. Yeah, love that. Yeah, it's going to create efficiencies all across the board and let's use that free time as you said to get more skills, right? Which is what we're talking about here today. So Saron, once again, thank you so much for the listeners who want to connect with you more. We're going to put the links to your Instagram and your YouTube channel in the show notes because you got amazing content out there on the internet and people need to click the link in the show notes right now, whether you're an agent or a loan officer. By the way, if you are an agent listening to this and you did get this from a loan officer, please thank them and let them know that they are now considered a partner, right? Not a vendor because they want to help you and that's why they share this episode with you. So Saron, once again, thank you. Appreciate it, Matt. Thanks, Jeff. All right, listeners, you know what to do? Leave a note in the show notes or leave us a review if you like this one and by the way, share this with somebody else. Pay it forward. Thanks for tuning in. See you on the next one. Bye for now. Okay, that's it for today's episode. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to remind you about my agent classes. You're proven system to double your agent referrals in just 90 days. Imagine never having to co-call again instead building real lasting relationships with top-producing agents who want to send you business with done-for-you presentations, marketing automation, weekly coaching. It's all designed to make growing your business easier and fun. So if you're ready to take control of your agent referrals and grow your income, visit mortgagemarketing.pro or check the link in the show notes. And while you're there, don't forget to check out the success stories from other mortgage pros who've already seen incredible results. Thanks for listening and I'll see you on the next episode.