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Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today. Hey, listeners, welcome to this episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast. This is your humble host, Jeff Zimfer. Welcome, welcome. I have to start counting my episodes. I know it's 200 and something, 230, 40, whatever. I don't know. I don't actually keep track, but I listen to other podcasts and I think it's pretty cool that they actually open up with their episode number. Like I'm listening to somebody else and you know, it comes on as welcome to episode 543, right? And I'm like, wow, that's pretty cool. So I'm going to do a better job at the keeping track. But I know this is at least episode 229 or 230. Let's say that. And that's not the most important thing. The most important thing is you're here, you tuning in. I appreciate you. If you're catching this around the Christmas time, I just want to say Merry Christmas wishing you and yours a wonderful, happy holiday season. And thank you so much for your gift of time and attention, which I think is amongst the most precious of gifts that we have to give to someone else is our time and our attention. So thank you very much for tuning in. This week, my special episode is a live stream that I was privileged to be a part of. Here's what's happening, right? You guys may or may not know. I live in Las Vegas moved here about four years ago from Southern California, Orange County after I had lived there for a gosh, I don't know, 30 years ish. That's where I really cut my teeth and originating starting in 2003 as a mortgage originator. And then, you know, did some time work for a country ride, for wells, for B of A, and there's a whole long story to that, which some of which you're going to hear on today's podcast, actually, of how I got in the business. And what I wanted to do is share the conversation I had because I reached out to, you know, an acquaintance of mine, Alec Hansen. Alec Hansen, some of you may know from his podcast, the modern lending podcast. He's a mortgage professional himself. He's an SVP with loan depot in Orange County, California. The guy's just a rock star. He actually published a book called Bipast, a modern guide for local mortgage pros left behind by the digital customer. You can find that on Amazon. You can go to his website at Alec, Alec Hansen, Alec, H-A-N-S-O-N dot com. We'll put links to all this in the show notes. But I wanted to bring this conversation to you because I think it's a great conversation on a number of ways. Number one, it's fun, right? Because Alec is a really fun guy and you should definitely be following him on Instagram as well. We'll link up that in the show notes. That's Alec the Hansen, Alec the Hansen on Instagram with his 37,000 followers and 1,300 posts. I mean, the guy's doing stuff that I want to do. I mean, I'm seeing him doing character spoofs on like, who's the guy that the soccer player, Jason Sadekis, right? I am I blanking on that name right now. I don't know, really unfortunate, but you got to follow him and see what he does. I mean, the guy gets naked, well, not totally on camera, but he's really, really funny. But he also brings a lot of great information and value, right? Ted Lasso, that's the name, you know, you're blank in the moment at stage fright. So you got to follow Alec, you got a list news podcast, we'll link that up in the show notes as well. You've got to get his book. I'm reading through his book and I'm very impressed, right? As you can tell, when people kind of phone it in with a book, this, this is not a, a, you know, a week attempt at a book. This is a serious book over 240 pages, right? And there's tons of great content in here. Some of what's in here, I wish I had written, all right? So kudos to you, Alec, for writing a great book. So this conversation, Alec and I actually used to work at the same company for a period of time together, countrywide, back in the day, as they say. And so Alec also cut his teeth similar to the same time I did, he began his career origination in 2004. And I got to tell you, the guy smoked me, all right? He blew right by me because he was voted Ricky rookie of the year by Scottsman's guide, funding over 85 million, right? And then every subsequent year, he went on to be on Scottsman's 200 top originator list, finishing his best year at 185 million. Yeah, and now so he's an SVP for Lone Depot in Orange County. And he's overseeing seven billion in annual production. So the guys obviously dialed in rock star, wonderful family man as well. And just a great conversation. So I wanted to bring this to you. What I did was when I was in Orange County visiting, I swung by his office slash studio. We did live stream and I really enjoyed the conversation and the opportunity to meet with Alec. I am going to be having Alec back on the podcast in the new year, where we're going to go deep on his book by past and get his insights in the future of the modern mortgage loan originator. So by the way, if you're not yet in our private Facebook group, go to Facebook, type in the search bar, mortgage marketing radio. I just might bring Alec into a live stream there. So you got to be in there to catch that live stream and all the other good stuff we're doing in that group on Facebook mortgage marketing radio. So without further ado, let's get into this week's show. What's up? Modern lending podcast listeners. Welcome back to another live episode of the modeling podcast. I'm your host, Alec Hanson. I'm here with Jeff Zimfer. Jeff and I go way back. You guys don't even understand. We're going to tell stories in a blur mind. I was mind blown because you just forget our past Jeff, the amazing author of Destructor Die. He's also the podcast host of the modern marketing radio. No, mortgage marketing radio, which we'll get to because that's radio in it, which will throw people off. Jeff and I were loan officers back in the glory days down here in Southern Orange and Southern California in Orange County. And so you ever meet those kindred spirits who speak your same language? Literally, I've watched Jeff's podcast for years. This guy is somebody who every time he said something, I'm like, he's thinking the thoughts in my brain, which is rad. It's fun to see somebody who I start seeing the same world and recognizing, hey, this is somebody who I think sees the world the way I do. Maybe he's a little broken too. For sure. Which is awesome. And then you were in Orange County. Yes. Okay, let's just hang out. Old stomping grounds. This is rad. Yeah. So thanks for coming on today, dude. Pleasure. I'm really honored to be here because you're crushing it here in this space. You've been leading from the front for all us people who do this, loan officers as well. So I just, you know, I happen to be here coming through town, you know, live in Vegas now, move there four years ago. And I was like, you know, when I'm coming through town, I had to hit now, look up and say, man, you want to grab a recording or something? And here we are. Well, dude, so for those of you that are just tuning in or listening or haven't listened any other episodes, which I don't blame you. This has been a series on stories. And I really, you know, I come from a family of storytellers. And I think stories, you know, they were all of, all of human knowledge was passed down with stories. That's how we learned. That's how we adapted. And I feel like they can be really helpful. And so for the loan officers out there, I can't wait to tell some stories with you from podcasting to origination days. But let's start with this. This is always an interesting one. How did you fall into mortgage lending? Wow. Great question. Because we know only crazy people can survive. I know, right? Lending. Yeah, I woke up and said, I want to be a lender. That's right. I was like, here we go. My dream is a child. Just a rigid loans. I love numbers. Hey, some people do. I know that's not you and me though. So I had a friend who was working for a subprime, small brokerage shop, shop down in San Juan Cap, you know where that is. And you know, I don't know. I was in transition or something and looking for, hey, an opportunity to make some money. And so he's like, hey, why don't you come over here and this is before you need a license and all that kind of stuff. 20 years ago. Yeah. My notes don't understand. 2003, I believe it was. So I went over there and you know, took the job and I'm working internet leads, cold calling internet leads. Oh my God. Absolutely. Subprime lender, cold calling internet leads. And I realized after about, I don't know, 60 days into that run, I was like, hmm, I don't think this is really what I had in mind, you know, what I want to do. And at the same time, here's the, I always love to tell this story. I was reading the magazine. Remember mortgage originator magazine? Absolutely. Yeah. And that was like the place me and you probably would go to look to be inspired. Yeah. I mean, it became Scottsman's guide. Yeah. So everyone's got it. But it was a mortgage originator magazine from the glory days. Yeah. And they would always feature these top producers. And I remember this, this literally, I went to my friend and I'm showing him these articles of people that are doing 50 million, 100 million. Yeah. Dude, look at, look at these people are doing like 50 million one guy. And he goes, that's not one guy. That's a brokerage. It's all shop. Yeah. He goes, that's, that's, they just, you know, build up their numbers to make it look like that. He goes, there's no way one person can do that much fine. I'm like, what? So I was calling BS. And then I just, you know, just went upon this journey to be like, okay, I don't believe him. Number one, number two, I, I want to have a career. I don't want to be the phone jock guy, you know, and I mean, calling internet leads and stuff. And I was like, no, I want to find the truth. And I did. And so then I, you know, long and short found, found my way to a country wide man was the next. Next. Dude, so it's so funny to hear that story because at 23 years old, I fell into the mortgage industry. And I sat at the receptionist for Kevin Buddy, who we both know. Yeah. So you were pounding the phones. Yeah. And I was sitting in front of this guy who said, go out and talk to eight realtors a day. I don't come back. Right. But that's amazing. So how did you get out of the call center? I just started interviewing, which is funny. Now, I haven't thought of that actually in forever. A lot of people said no, you know, really? They're like, you have little to no experience. You've been working at a calls shocking, right? They're like, no, nobody not hiring loan officer. That's amazing versus like getting in here and hear some money. I forget how I got to, but I did get an interview. And this was before the office we were talking about earlier, there's an office in Tuston. I can't remember. Oh, I do remember the name vaguely right now, but anyway, they gave me a flyer. They're like, all right, hot shot. We'll give you a chance because you're so persistent. Yeah. I think I might have done some aggressive marketing to get his attention or something. But the other moment I do clearly remember was I was giving my business cards, put them on my desk. All right. Go get yourself some real. You're a loan officer. Yep. There you go. Congratulations. And I'm like, that's it. And that began the wonderful journey, man. So do you remember a time in that in that origination days where you felt like you broke through? Because maybe it may be a frame it this way, you know, often I'll tell people. So I'm curious for your take to if you're brand new and you're the stack of cards, kid. Yeah. You know, it's six months to a year. Yeah. Right. Of just eating, you know, rice. Embrace the suck. Yeah. It's got to be that. Yes. So how long did it take you to you felt, hey, I have some secure relationships now. I've broken through. For sure. It was a year. It was all in. And first year was a suck, man. It was bad. I took a heat lock out in the house. Oh, you're in. You're going deep. I was all I had no choice. Why wasn't working? We just had our first baby. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, I am. We got we got a mortgage. I mean, I had everything. Right. I'm like, let's go all in. Let's go. And so that was the only way I could survive is, you know, that thank God that that heat lock and that bought me time to ride out that first year. And then something did click for me. We personally, how I decided to build my business was through classes, lunch and learns and stuff like that. Oh, I love that. You know, that's awesome. Because I was doing the same thing you were doing, as I heard your story, which was, I was doing the broker previews, I was cold calling, and I always like to say, does all that work? Yeah, it works. But it doesn't work systematically. You know what I mean? You got to like, you know, sweat it out. So I don't know what happened. I don't know. You and I didn't talk about this, but prior to that, I was actually years ago, I worked for Tony Robbins. It was a seminar guy for him. Yeah. I traveled around the country and I did seminars, like, live in a city for six, eight weeks at a time and walk into all these offices with five, six other people. And we went to the card dealerships, the real estate offices, the mortgage offices. Yeah. And when I got off the road, I was like, hmm, what am I going to transition into? You know? And so for me, it was mortgage. And then all of a sudden, something happened. I was like, why am I busted my ass, cold calling and doorknack? And I'm like, why don't I get 10 realtors in a room and just teach them something, something that they would find valuable? What was the first class? Remember, it was probably marketing related, for sure. But it's something that I still do this day and it's something that, as you know, a lot of L.O.'s do. And it works. Yes. You know? I like that angle. Bring them to you. Stop going to them. Right. Yeah. So did you have a core class that you taught that you remember that was just like, this was my bread and butter? Well, as you know, this was before the internet, right? Yeah. Okay. So, hold on. For everyone out there, it's getting all judgy. Okay. We had Nokia phones. We had a Thomas guide and MapQuest printout. Thomas guide, baby. That's what we had. Yeah. So, I know you got the internet and the world in your hand. This was like, there's no way to get a hold of anybody. Nope. You know, pagers had just died. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some people right now are like, what's a pager? Oh, God. You know? Buckle up children. No, you're right. Those are the glory days when you had no choice but to physically get in front of somebody. Yeah. Other than the phone. Oh, man. Yeah. And invite people to that. Yeah. I would go, I'd do flyer drops. I teamed up with Tidal Astro home warranty a lot. Yeah. Get a team. Still works today. Weird. All right. People exist. Don't that. There's people out there. If you just find them, they'll be willing to help you. So yeah. It was block and tackle. It was a lot of just, you know, get out there. I love the saying from the military embrace the suck because I think that's what it is for a period of time. And then what happens is you start to, I know you talk about this, is you start to build a brand. You start to become known as, you know, not the Average L.O. in town who's always pitching rate and member of faxing rate sheets. You go to these offices and there's rate sheets all over the place and I'm like, what is that game? Right? So to your point earlier, you said you bring them to you instead of you chase them. I mean, I did it all, right? And then I was just like, you know what, I hold a hold a class. There's 10 people and they get meetings with three or four and you do another one. You get meetings for three or four and out of that you get two or three who start to develop. A year later, you got 15, 20 realtors who you can count on two, three deals a month. Yep. And then you've broken through. Yeah. Now it's referral business and expansion. Yeah. And that was like we said before the internet. Well, so let's go this direction for a second because I love the fact that you're still holding on to the radio moniker or podcast brand. Yeah. And so what this is one of the things that I'm jealous about with guys like Jeff is, you know, they saw things ahead of their time. You know, because like David Lickins been doing podcasting for 30 years. Right. You know, so so what caused you to go in that direction with your business, with your strategy? How did you, I mean, what was the, did you have an aha moment? Did you see what would you see the truthful honest answer was I started trying to do videos on YouTube in 2006. Yes. And it was hard. God, I wish I would have done that. I know. Right. So it was hard. I had my camcorder. Yeah. And this was back when I was traveling and stuff and I would go to, I would be in a hotel room. There's like this. I'd have the tripod set up. Oh, yeah. And I'm trying to record my videos and my little snippets. And then I like, I got to upload everything that goes with video. I'm like, this is hard. It's brutal. Wow. And I'm like, what can I do? That's actually easier than this. And I was like, shit. I could just record audio, right? Yeah. That's pretty easy. Turn on a microphone on your laptop thing, whatever. And boom, record an audio and now I can actually get my mess. So that is truthfully why I pivoted off a video to audio back then. And at the same time, you know, when you're on a journey, like you and I, we sweat it out. We've had to figure it out the hard way. And you, I know, also interviewed a lot of successful L.O.'s early on to find out what are you doing? I was on a similar journey. And I think a lot of people are too. I was at this place for whatever reason. Okay. So I went through to that. We went through 2008, all that kind of stuff. And I just was at this place of like when, when it got really bad tight at BFA, when it was just like, you couldn't breathe, that I was asking for permission. Yeah. I was like, I don't know if I want to originate, but I want to stay in this industry and do something. Yeah. So for me, it was the pivot back to like my real, I think core and passion, which is training, educating, speaking, coaching, all that. So that was the moment for you then. I was going to ask, when did the transformation moment happen for you when you got into more coaching, leadership, mentoring? I always wanted to have a platform to be honest with you. I always saw myself as being an author one day, having my own show or whatever brand. And I saw that as the pivot because I could take this expertise or experience that I think I, you know, developed and then take my natural, I think innate abilities to find what really works by interviewing, talking to people and just bring people solutions. That's all I wanted to do. I wanted to bring people solutions. And for me, the podcast was the vehicle to do that. And so I got really curious, right? And I just started calling people up and I'm going, hey, would you be on, would you be open to an interview? Well, so I want to talk about that. We've got to unpack that because there are, I don't think, I think podcasting is an amazing vehicle for personal branding, for driving people relationships, for bringing on gas, for just as a social media strategy, because you can just continue to share moments that don't have to be from you. Right. So I'm just going to talk to people and let them just talk and then they just, they drop nuggets and you're just like, yeah, well, I'm associated with this intelligence. So, right. So what was it like in the early days for you? Because I noticed somebody out there thinking, God, I should probably do something here. You just calling people? Yeah, man, I was calling people emailing people and I, let me tell you what, I got a lot of nose. What would they say? Why they say no, though? Just curious. Like I just said no. That's it. Thanks. But you didn't get, like, I don't understand why you're doing this. Some people did say that. Yeah. Really? Yeah. You were so early. I could see people being like, that's weird. That was, it was a January, five years ago, whatever the math is on that, it'll be six years come, 2022. Yeah. So yeah, early on, there was a lot of, no, a lot of people thought I was a scam. They didn't understand the angle. Yes. That's what it was. That's awesome. What's the angle? You're like, just, what angle is it? It's a knowledge. Yeah, exactly. Isn't that so funny? Not today, right? You're like, oh, podcast. Yeah. You know, I kind of, I still think there's people out there that are like, I don't know. I don't know. It's not for me. What's your angle? Why do you want to have me on? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some people were like, how much does it cost? I'm like, that's when you know you kind of made it a little bit, like you're like, yeah, that's right. No, that was a while back. You know, you get a lot of skeptics, get a lot of people who, even still today where people don't get the whole digital media platform thing, like, I don't see why that you would do that. That makes sense. But it was hard early on. I take a lot of, a lot of nose. And so I just got online, did a lot of research, started googling people. But it's not like everybody said, yeah, let's do this. No, no, man. People still say no today. Yeah. It's sometimes it takes a year to get somebody on the show. Yeah. You know what it is? So six years of this, you still call it a radio, which I love. That was like, I don't even know where that came from. It's just what name your show. It's fine. I thought it was like audio. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Fine. Yeah. You know. And I guess that maybe you're saying it was a smart move. All right. So what did you, what did you learn? What have I learned? Yeah. What stands out from that all the six years of building this thing from a business development perspective, personal growth, relationship building. What stands out? I've learned that if that, that if you just, I don't know, I don't want to sound cheesier cliche. I was, I was going to say, if you just show up in that value, right? I mean, something like that. But that just sounds so. Sometimes somebody just needs to hear it again and again and again until they finally wake up to it though. So it's okay to be a little bit cheesy if the language is right. In my opinion, I guess, I mean, trust your gut, you know, I like that. Like what do you really want to do? I'm going to be trying to formulate this in a sentence is because, you know, I think, what are you trying to build? Who are you trying to be? How are you trying to show up in the world? Yeah. You know, because those are the questions that were driving me. That's all I wanted to do. Like I didn't have a game of like how I'm going to monetize this or this is going to be a money maker for me. That's important. So that's, that's really important because you can, you can tell immediately, because I, I feel like they're showing up with a lack of authenticity when their end game is some kind of manipulation, some kind of monetization where it's like, oh, I can, and I, I feel like they're, their voice in the podcast gets lost and I just can't, you see, you can hear it and feel it with them anymore. Right. So I like that angle. Well, I mean, it's still the case, right? I've never taken, everyone's probably gets somebody call, hey, you, you take ads or a sponsor or something. I'm like, no, I don't, even though it's, it's been interesting, you, it's so far to be honest with you, I haven't, it's been like hard money lenders, whatever. I'm like, nah, that's not, that's not what I'm going for. Get it. It's not the brand you're looking for. For me, it's just a place to show up and serve and, and I know that sounds, I think it sounds cheesy. I don't know. Sure. But I don't know, you just recently met Gary Vee and I'm sure congrats on that, by the way. Amazing. Wow. Friggin feather in the cap. But I'm sure the, the one thing you would know for certain being around Gary is he is no bullshit. He is, sorry, if I'm, he is, he cost way more than you are. So he did. He did. He did. Thank you. He is coming from here. Yeah. 100%. You know what I mean? And that's like Wine Library TV and how he started all that kind of stuff. There was a little bit of the old, like, hmm, I'm wondering, this could probably turn into something for the liquor store. Yeah. But, right? He showed up and just really wanted to like instill today his content, I think is all about serving. Yeah. And I think that's a little bit of his key to success too. And I think that's part of the key to your success over the years and staying consistent but also staying true to what you wanted it to be. Well, let me ask you, why did you start the podcast? Because this is, let's go to the bottom of the bottom of the letting podcast. This is going to both our audiences, Alex Hansen, Modern Lending Podcast. Let's go. I think it was, I started my entire digital journey and everyone that's heard me before is probably puking because they've heard this a million times. Nope. But in 2018, when the mortgage world was ending, the consolidation was happening. Margin compression was gigantic. It was going to be this great, I call it the great consolidation that I feel like, you know, in the crisis created this fragmentation of the industry with all of these, I don't want to call them micro companies, but smaller mortgage companies that have gotten bigger over time. Right. That just became into existence because there was a void and everything was destroyed and absorbed by banks and they don't mortgage lend well. And so, you know, I predict and continue to predict incorrectly that at some point, there's going to be this consolidation where they just can't play at that level anymore because of the requirement for technology, the requirement for scale to maintain margin. So it's just a personal viewpoint. But I'm like, it's happening. 2018, I'm like, this is happening. And the other thing that I saw happening, which was a little bit terrifying to me, was, you know, I'm a street kid in mortgage, you know, I was door-to-door, belly-to-belly, driving a map crash pronounce, trying to find the next open house, pissed off when there's a title rep there and not the real time I wanted to see, you know, going, putting on my suit and tie on Saturdays and Sundays and going to open houses, trying to get appointments. And what I've, what I saw in 2018, was this, the death of that person, that that sales person, because the consumer was just changing. We were all changing so rapidly into this internet first society, cell phone driven, touch screen, you know, smartphone, and, and, you know, the multiple listing service was private in our glory days. Right. Yes. So as a consumer, you got to go to the hot sheets on a Saturday and open it like to, you couldn't see what's for sale. You didn't know. Shit. Needed a realtor. No, you had to have a realtor. And since they controlled knowledge, they controlled a lot, a lot more influence than today when knowledge is more widespread. And so I just, I was, you know, thinking that my people were in trouble. So you wanted to show up and serve too? Well, so, so yes. And then I saw, so I realized, loan officers needed to show up. I was like, I was, I woke up and I, and, and literally I told the story with Gary on Gary's podcast, but I'm, I went for a run, grabbed a coffee, I'm listening to Gary's podcast and he said the same shit over and over again. Right. And I just must have been the moment I needed to hear it where he was like, you know, the brand is going to matter. You're, it's going to matter. And I was like, you know what? This is so true for the loan officers that I serve for, for the people that I lead, for our industry. And then I looked around and I was beating the drum. You got to get on social, you got to get on video, you got to get out there and be comfortable in this new medium where people are consuming content, right, podcasting. And then I looked around and I was doing none of it. And I go, well, what, what kind of a hypocrite am I? If I'm telling somebody to do something and I'm not willing to do it, right? And so I dove into the space. I did a hundred videos in a hundred days as a test to figure this out and say, commit it to something. It's just sure I'm going to do something. And you know, it lacks a ton of direction. It was very scattered. It was one topic and then randomness. But, but through that process, I started to learn a ton of different things and validate a lot of other things that I've been told by people that even listen to some of your early stuff where I was like, okay, this is, this is, I'm right. This is, this is happening. And so that was the birth of the modeling podcast because I figured if I'm going to tell people, I think they need to look at podcasting as a potential medium for them, but I was never going to try it. Well, who am I? And maybe my podcast at some point ends because it's not for me. Maybe my, my, my, there's a great loan officer in Vegas who found his medium in YouTube. Sean? Yeah. I mean, so he figured it out. So he, he doesn't podcast anymore. It wasn't his, it didn't, it didn't fit his voice. And he recently changed his content too. Yeah. From lifestyle to more financing related. Well, and that's my point. It's like, I feel like you got to be in the water to figure out where you're going to play. Yeah. That's such a good point too for anybody who gets hung up on like, how, where do I start? It's just you just have to start. And you know, like you said, get in the water and start swimming. And you'll figure out your path, you know? Yeah. So that, that was how this podcast started, you know, and then I did, I did, but maybe I, you did, but I, you know, I called people that were safe that I knew they couldn't say no. People that work alone people. I'm like, you can't say no. Yeah. But, but again, it was just putting reps in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is, you know, I got to do the thing in the head of like, you know, I get to be crazy and silly let your real personality come through that. I think that that, I had that. That became, I think that's part of the journey, too, yeah. I think at some point, the, the layers start to slough off. Yeah. You get more comfortable. Yeah, where you're kind of like, you know what? I'm, I'm more comfortable on my skin. Now I'm a little more comfortable on my skin. Now, that's part of you, really. Oh. He was all that that crazy stuff. You do. Oh, I'm the biggest. Which is 20 is hell. Oh, I'm just have to say, it's not, first of all, I don't think everybody can do like I heard you say like if you're the engineer type guy who wants to run the the analysis and all that if you want to do that cool that's you but if you're the personality guy who wants to put on a frigging king's costume with a crown then do that too yeah I mean I I think we all have a unique voice to give to a unique audience right that that is gonna be attracted to that yeah and so you know if I'm not living that authentically in my own voice then how dare I tell somebody else to do something and have you have you seen have you been able to convert anybody yet well in their own ways so like I kind of I'd like to hear your thoughts on this too because you brought up the hybrid loan officer earlier which I you know digital local type of thing right totally agree with it I I believe that a lot of loan officers on our industry are waking up and and I wouldn't attribute it to you know Alec Hanson did the collective yeah I think that maybe I'm part of the narrative I think maybe they I'm part of maybe their experience somewhere that'd be awesome but I think that people are starting to figure out there's there is this thing happening there's that there's a billion dollars in marketing being spent on TV's and the internet to tell the consumer that the local mortgage professionals are relevant and so I mean it's real you just watch the commercials and you're like well that's that's that's insulting yeah yeah and so I think people are starting to figure it out now they're and they're messing up and they're doing it wrongly and then they're trying to pivot hopefully and but but that's I love that do it wrong all day long right so when was your first insight into this hybrid that you called it this digital local my answer to that I'm always going to be 100% honest is is the way I'll answer that or frame that is I never believed it was going 100% digital I think there will be those options for people who want that but but that's not everybody because I think where I started to get agitated was when I started seeing people create these comparisons of like using Uber and the taxi industry and the disruption there you know what I mean and then they parallel parallel that over to real estate or whatever and I'm like it's not the same thing yeah like you probably have heard this comparison where it's just like disrupting a $20 taxi ride is not the same as disrupt disrupting a half a million dollar purchase people aren't going to make this and want to go just this and the data proves it you know so what what's this about the book oh that's about and what why did you do this is that about why did you do this why did you write a book okay so that your audio guy and now you're in the written world I'm not I'm not completely you know thick in the skull I do understand the value of having a book for credibility sure absolutely for sure so that is put it put it this way it's too too pronged approach one is if you're building a platform building a brand you need to have some assets right away for people to engage with you and let's just face it having a book is instant credibility we all know that so I'm like okay I understand the game I'm playing I've got to have some credibility but also it was away for what I wanted to tell the story there was back to what I just said which was surviving and thriving a digital real estate shift is not just about you know hyperbole about digital and go all in on digital and you gotta be on video and all these things people just throw out there randomly you know I'm like there's more to it than that you know and it isn't just that it is you know this term the hybrid loan officer which is a new book nice nice put myself out there right now yeah just declare it yeah there it is baby so I really for me again it's I wanted to tell the truth so in there is like interviews I did with agents loan officers about how they're succeeding both with digital and still the quote old school relationship referral past client stuff it's a blend of both and to be honest I just got tired of like it being like all digital all digital yeah and I'm talking to people who are succeeding who aren't all digital right they're succeeding with the relationship side of things and so yeah that was kind of the motivation dude I I love that I've always been said they're not mutually exclusive right exactly you know we talk about social media and I'm like this is additive this is not replacing your relationships this is not tell you know throwing away you know and everyone hears you know me say that analogy of realtors losing influence and what I mean by that is the customer is taking more and more control of the process but by no means is that it make a realtor irrelevant no no they they I still see tons of realtors with massive amounts of control on a transaction oh yeah and then I see something that have no control and I want to and a customer does walk in with a quick and you know pre-approval and they just accept it move on well I spent a lot of time kind of doing research in the field I follow a lot of people who then I like grab their info and make me look really smart but you know I usually cut it them where possible you use that trick to yeah exactly should we say shoulders of giants I've got to stand on your shoulder I'll give you credit but I think the future of the industry is is simply more fragmented that's it our realtors going away no our consumers going to have more options for how they acquire the that piece of it yes I mean one of the new models I'm seeing is you know the referral fee model like we just saw with Zillow it's real yeah so the ibuyer thing for Zillow dead gone yeah we don't know what's gonna happen yeah with open door but or offer pad but we're seeing that that's a difficult model to sustain yep but what I think is the the next version of the models with these this model they call the power buyers now you've heard of these right these people like orchard and what's the like I can't remember the other one right now but land is land is there's a few out there are always some some sprucing up they got tons of money and what they're doing is say let me get to the buyer first and I'm gonna find the property that you want to buy and oh by the way like you don't even have to move out of your current house or we'll you know all kinds of options they're gonna do bridium all that yeah bridium exactly to get to the buyer first so I saw the stat that Tom for you put up the other day in one of his events and that he sees the future of the market is small sliver fizzbo roughly 50% agents the other 50% will all those transactions will have a referral fee component to it whether it be from a big company or something else you know yep what what a what a evolution to the process yeah so what going back to your comment about digital local what do you think a loan officer needs to do today to be relevant yeah great question I think they really first of all need to show up and and create a place where they can engage create an audience I was at this conference a few weeks back and I designed this whole presentation which was called defeat the disruptors because that's what they asked for and and it was all around how do you as a mortgage originally stay relevant and a lot of it is like kind of what we talk about which is you know who who can you serve don't be everybody be for somebody yeah who are you choosing to serve or what problems will you solve and then where are you going to show up online right where's where's going to be your destination is it going to be Instagram is it going to be LinkedIn or whatever you know you've got to show up someplace and build an audience and you also have to build that audience offline because you don't own any of that yeah you know Facebook was down for eight hours a few months I loved it the world panicked me to talk with blowing up what do we do don't we go here what do we do now um I don't know do we go for a walk or go to park or where's zombies so I think you know to get back to your question is show up build your own audience right build your personal brand as you said be known for something for to someone yeah in particular and then just do an amazing job for people like how during your sales process how many moments of of that like surprise and delight yeah are there very little yeah it's very transactional yeah well I'll call you in the praises in you call them in their praises in right you didn't you okay well how are you differentiating against the big box lenders you know for example yeah that's that's why they're going to choose you that's why I think a lot of the smart lenders are leaning on financing as far as how do I lead with education on financing is how to use real estate to build wealth yes it's the right mortgage for you right the total cost analysis type stuff yep right all that kind of jazz um let me let me go this direction for sure one of my questions that I've asked this whole season hmm was um share a transfer mid transformative experience that you've had in your life now before you go out because there's probably many because most humans have a lot they're you know right the coach that said something whatever um but but here's the vein I want you to try to try to layer it in on you know the my audience loan officers in market professionals so I want this story to be as relevant or helpful to those people as possible um but you know you've had a ton of life experiences torn at you oh you like damn these are like hard questions hard hitting questions I mean I get a drink yeah it's right there that's vodka yeah I mean it could it could it could be as simple as you know the glory days of origination and that the the meeting that changed your life that is still as relevant today as it was that time had happened it could be a you know the experiences you've had going digital and getting on to um podcasting and where that's taking your career and yeah help build a platform and set you on a direction that you that that was where you really wanted to go and you've done a ton of stuff there's there's like so there's like three or four things floating through my head and then thinking in the context of your audience um and I'm trying to choose which one of the most relevant because I'm thinking of two so let me start with this one um you know how maybe you found this to be true and I don't know what the mix of your audiences is it new versus seasoned or a bland it's both get some both um I don't know about you but like when I was first out there calling on realtors I was nervous I was um yeah yeah were you kind of intimidated I drove away I tell us for all the time I I finally pull up to the number one producer in Orange County in Newport Beach yeah and I look in the house and he's there first time 23 years old first time I ever met this person uh-huh and I put on jock jams and I'm trying to get fired up trying to get like slapping my face and then I just put it in drive and just take off you couldn't do it couldn't even go in Jeff I couldn't even go in and say hi right right I need to bring a fire and have to sell anything I just had to go say like I'm Alec I could here's my card even not even give a card right oh my god I couldn't do it really so talk about fear and nervousness man I I feel you 100% let me hold on let me flip it around because this is our show we're mutually interviewing each other so how so you went back or how did you get over that fear and intimidation I knew on the other side of that was the opportunity I knew it in my soul and I think like you don't know that you can never face down your fears and I'm I'm I was very insecure growing up I was bullied I had you know I was I was I still have the the chirping of the fear of rejection and insecurity I mean it's all still in the the reptilian brain I deal with it all the time still now I'm older and I have more things to help me manage it but I knew on the other side of this was the opportunity that is transformative and I'm competitive and I don't like to lose so I feel like I had a unique engine that helped me face it but everyone's got to face it with whatever the tools they got and so the way I did it was I tried to hack the game I stopped I didn't sell anything because if I'm not selling anything if I never ask you for a meeting you can't tell me no it's really easy now I knew somewhere that I'd have to have a meeting at some point I'd have to come to the rejection line at some point but I was like well that'll be later and you know I lived very simply I had as one bedroom single apartment you know like I I didn't I drove a Honda Civic you know that I my dad God bless him he paid it off for me when I graduated college my gift so I had I had very little expense wow and so I just I I just wouldn't introduce myself what's it I didn't bring a card mm-hmm didn't bring a flyer mm-hmm I learned real quickly by the way that I had introduced myself as a lender because I win it on a weekend introduce myself and they got that I was a buyer I spent an hour touring around the house never could talk to that realtor again never love it just could never talk to me again so I just I realized that I just had to I just had to say hi and my name is Alec wow and how's the market and I hate small talk because I don't do well with that either but I just had to figure out what to do and then you know I train this now to a lot of people who face the same demons because over the over time what happens simplistically is you know the fifth meeting the sixth meeting it's instead of saying hi I'm Alec they go hi Alec when you walk in the door mm-hmm so you would go back over and over again oh my god I had the top 100 agents in my act database where I'd print labels myself and stick them myself folks this is the 1990s yeah and and I so anytime there's a broker preview or an open house for those top agents I was there really every time I walk every time yeah and walk it every time and so by the 7th day 10th time 15th time they knew my name I wasn't I honestly I wasn't a threat to them I because I didn't sell them anything I never pressured them for a meeting ask them what lender they use so I became a respected person at least they they knew I was hustling yeah yeah that's what it was right there they knew your hustling and the fact that you weren't pitching either because they didn't like that pitch you just said something like they weren't hustling I remember I never remember Michael Clifford group here in SoCal yeah so they knew you were hustling he I became his his in-house lender simply because I just did everything you said I showed up and I never pitched and then I went he was interviewing in-house lenders and he goes I know who you are you're at all my broker previews and broker opens and I won the deal yep you know yeah so I'll tell you so I'll tell you my one of my transfer moments in that time hmm one of the best agents in in Orange County he he he works on Balbole Island his name is Don Abrams I don't know if you recognize it still in the game he was an ex litigating attorney turned real estate broker owner and did his own deals running his own little shop and he he kills it on Balbole Island he does all the business down there a huge market cheerleader and so I go Thursday to a broker preview in Newport Friday he had a listing in Costa Mesa which was another city for broker I go to that one Saturday I go to an open house Sunday go to another one of those open houses he's it everyone wow so I hit this guy four days in a row and hopefully not the same suit I don't even remember probably I only had like two suits and one time he made fun of me for wearing a suit to Balbole Island because he said no one down here has a suit on this is short since he's like what are you doing and I go I'm I that's all I got right right have you seen me I'm 23 and so I remember the fourth time I walk in on Sunday he he looks me and he goes he goes Alec and I go Don nice to see you and he stops me and he goes are you gonna come to every single one of my broker previous open houses and I was like oh no this is it this is my I hate this moment this is what I've been trying to avoid and and he's forced the moment where I have to tell him you know I'm I'm hunting him right and so I tell him yes somehow I'm sure my voice cracks mm-hmm and then he he gave me the biggest grace and them and and a defining moment for my career and he laughed and he said it took my last loan officer two years to earn my business keep showing up it's great to see you and one of the things that I teach the coach to and and and and just share what people is you never know what's going on under the surface for these big agents right yeah they're they're real their loan officer could be a piece of crap right right and has and has been and acting entitled and not calling them back promptly and not doing not being available because you don't know but they don't tell you that no no and so six months later he called me on a weekend sitting with a customer I needed a prequel later because he didn't tell me the time but he wasn't able to get a hold of his long-term partner right and he was losing his mind and then he gave me that first deal and I close 30 million a year with him for the next five years just you know so they just talk about so you it's funny a similar transformation moment moment I'm glad you went there I'm sure everybody watching is glad to because they can learn a lot from that but the similar thing I was gonna say was this was actually just happened to me last week I met with a one of the top real estate agents in Las Vegas she's top hundred or higher than that year-to-date she's sold 160 homes cheese yeah she's working yeah she's working and she's just so well known and the brand you know all this kind of stuff so there's a little bit of the intimidation and everything and she walks in she pulls up in a red Panamera right perfect right she comes in she's got leather pants leather knee-high boots leather earrings down to her shoulder I know like the whole what you would usually expect yes dude nicest person in the world nicest person in the world it was totally gracious and arms open we hugged at the end you know what I mean and I'm just the my my my point is a transformative story is like we get so worked up and intimidated oh my god this big ages yeah absolutely you and we tell yeah and bad assumptions here's so so the moral the story is like don't pre-judge right and most of the agents I've found at that level I know there's some some ego yeah there's some there's some asterix yeah yeah yeah there you go but like you said you never here they're also struggling with how do they continue this they're to grow their business you're gonna have to there the sometimes the most open-minded people there are yeah you know so if you can bring them something that's this is but you know you and I always showed up with is like you know now today it's like you can send them a series of videos of like like let me help you like you know get more consumers on Instagram or whatever yeah so well let me ask you this as we wind down yeah thanks for your time today it's been super fun thank you man let's not blow out here without talking about your book okay okay this bypass bypass I love the hashtag bypass swip right so tell me about this a modern guy for local mortgage pros left behind by the digital customer so tell me about this why'd you write this um similar to your to your view to your answer I felt like I had a lot that I wanted to um get out you know I felt like I had a lot in here yeah some a lot too much sometimes I just I felt like I had this this information that I want I needed to share yeah and so I was trying to figure out how to do that and you know I developed the internal training platform for loan depot I started to kind of condense the thoughts into more of a process yeah um and so you know that and that was what born this um and I I donate hundreds of the profits to freedom alliance to support our veterans because the for for all everyone's been the mortgage entry and that's had levels of success um it's been good to us right right right and so this is this is almost like a I I don't need the proceeds from this I want people to thrive in our space I don't want in market professionals who I love and are are wonderful caregivers of the of the home buyer hmm to to be bypassed to be you know discredited yep um they're they're they're a consultative wisdom matters you know their experience levels matter yep um you're you're taking on one of the larger debts of your life we know what happens when you get bad when you do bad loans mm-hmm we watch the almost the world go down yes so we know how important this this moment is this constant of experiences um and so I was like I got to get this into this format mm-hmm and that that was what really drove me to put this into paper school so it was a passion project yeah yeah and and you know the same stuff too I it it I I I feel like if you got something to say you should say it and if it's worth it people will buy it yeah exactly then I love it man congrats I'm sure it wasn't easy I know writing a book isn't easy no the hardest part and this is hysterical was I'm an audiobook guy hmm huge audiobook guy mm-hmm and so I wanted to have an audiobook version of this right and I decided that I would read it myself because the mark mark Randolph who was the first CEO of Netflix narrated his own book called that will never work which is incredible and I love listening to it because I got to listen to the guy right tell his story right and nothing makes you feel dumber than trying to read your own book Mikey was in the studio with me we how long it took us months because I could I'd repay I couldn't do it I read I like I just get stuck on a paragraph or a sentence and like I'm out I quit we're gonna start it tomorrow like I just lose your mind did you get it done it's done well it's done well better than me I haven't even done it it's brutal dude it was just hours in the studio with the mic and a headset and you have to read the store pace and you just want to kill yourself right because you're like that I should change this it could sound better that's the worst part just when you realize it one of the sentences don't you're like mm-hmm I gotta read it like that now I definitely want to get the book and read it so and we're gonna make sure that when my honest is listening to this we're gonna put links make sure you get me one thank you to to where the book is and all your shows and all that all right final question for this sir I love this question okay if you were sitting down in front of a brand new originator and a 30-year veteran you got a few minutes with them to give them advice mm-hmm what are you going to share to those two people oh geez man seriously yeah like like I know I should have like you gotta and you gotta hit you you got a brand new originator 30-year vet and what advice would I give each of them yeah or just or communally other than for the brand new person to shadow the 30-year vet that's the truth man that's the first step right shadow this person and see what they love that that's working for them okay so I would say this is be adaptable yeah be adaptable because it's for certain that things are gonna change and what you're doing today and how you're getting clients today may or may not work five years from now so I think the survival to success is not the fittest it is the most adaptable to change to fit your current environment and that's it so just eyes wide open take that dude yeah totally on point that's it thank you brother thank you man all right pleasure to be here take us out my dude bye for now 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