The Role of Loan Officers in the NAR Settlement

Well, good day. Listen to how you do in Jeff Zimper, your humble most of the mortgage market radio podcast. Thanks for tuning in. And if this is your first time listening, welcome. If you've been listening for some time and you'd like to share your love of the podcast, hey, leave us a review if you don't mind. There's a link down here in the show notes and it says enjoying the podcast, please leave us a review. That's how we reach more people. Appreciate that. And before we get into today's special guest, of course, I've got a win of the week coming at you from our community of mortgage professionals. My agent classes, what we do is help originators attract versus chase realtors and build a platform that rises above the noise, help you become 15 mile famous and move from being seen as a solicitor and vendor to a partner and peer. Win of the week this week is coming from Mitch to God. Mitch, what's up? Obviously, we are post NAR settlement. So the NAR settlement buyer strategies navigating the new normal is one of the things we're leading with in terms of classes. We actually have three different classes we're doing around the NAR settlement to help buyers level up their buyer presentation, help them convert more people to right, signing those agreements and securing their compensation and lots of other strategies around this. But my buddy Mitch put together an NAR panel with inspiration from our group, our class and our content and he's doing it coming up in September and he says agents have loved the idea of doing it a month out. So the dust can be somewhat settled right post August 17th and have an actual meaningful panel conversation about what challenges have been hitting the most right coming at about 30 days after August 17th. And the goal is to then have a follow-up panel right after that as well and continue to do his monthly classes that he's been doing in the meantime. He's becoming 15 mile famous when he submits offers people recognize his name when he makes calls posts on social media DMs on social media people recognize his names. Best part Mitch says he's got two top producing agents in the area on his panel who've never bothered to answer his calls or meet before along with other another managing broker a title rep a builder and attorney he's meeting them all on Monday to brainstorm and plan their capping the event at 75 agents. Guys this is called being smart this is called leverage right one too many if you're looking to accelerate your awareness engagement and conversations in your local market you can do it one on one one's easy to use and crawl and go slow or you can put yourself on the fast track right and become well known and attract people to you and build this personal brand that breaks through the wall of noise. I don't know if this is right for you we are taking a few more applications and the way you find out more about this if we're fit for each other is you schedule a call with me you go to mortgage marketing.pro grab a time on my calendar we'll have a 30 minute conversation see if we're fit for each other so check it out all right my special guest for this week I'm really thrilled about this conversation because I there's a few people I know and some have spoken to a lot of haven't but few people I know who have their pulse their finger on the pulse of what's happening in real estate two day right now especially in a post and air settlement world I'm talking about my guest James DeWiggins is the co-founder and chief executive officer at next home he's also the co-founder on a brand new tech startup called raise our a ys e you'll hear more about it in the conversation there's a link in the show notes for everything we talk about raise is in mate I've seen the demo on raise it's pretty mind blowing in terms of helping buyer agents demonstrate and provide proof for all the work and steps and process that goes into leading up to a successful close to purchase transaction so besides that James is the as I said the chief executive officer and co-founder of next home and he's got a huge footprint of real estate across the country he's got over 500 office locations nearly over 5,000 agents across the country he speaks to high level people the CEO of the NAR and a lot of other industry leaders and influencers and this is a great crash course in how to engage with agents so you deliver value and become a true partner how to better understand what's happening post in our what to be aware of and look out for and then kind of what's on the horizon long term so you can adjust accordingly and make some long term adjustments to your strategies your conversations on both the buyer side and the agent side as well so I know you'll enjoy this conversation by the way feel free to share it with your real estate agent partners I think they'll find tremendous value in it as well check the links in the show notes if you want to listen to James podcast it's fantastic real estate insiders unfiltered love it great conversation so without further ado let's get into this week's show James welcome to the show thanks for having me super excited to uh discuss all things non-existent in residential real estate lawsuits so what do you want to talk about man want to talk about music how about this let's talk about you grow up and slow right I did uh it was born and raised in San Elizabeth, California I think was just voted in one of the top 10 cities to to live in the United States saw in a magazine recently um called slow town but yeah it's born and raised there so I know the area well my son is in his third year at Cal Poly mechanical engineering oh mustangs oh mustangs it is the school for engineering uh it's a school for agriculture yeah and uh a school for having the greatest bars downtown and a great knife so sure I wish I had my I got a frog and peach shirt I wish I had got it just for sure great great pub to go out of beer at yeah and he uh he's been in a band and they played at frog and peach and a bunch of venues down there so I you know I was there I'm 44 and I grew up in San Luis my whole life so I saw San Luis bespoke downtown transition from some of the original ball bars to some of the bars they are now so it's yeah it's evolved a lot yeah for sure that's cool yeah I always love to find um when people are like from there know there you know that no slow no the whole community it's a very unique it's very cool vibe there you know yeah I dig it I dig it but all right so we're not here to talk about that who is James Wiggins what's what's the all about what do you want to tell the listeners who might not be familiar with who you are uh I mean you know I he's talking about myself but um third generation in residential real estate my grandfather started his real estate company in San Luis Obispo in 1967 ironically um both my parents were brokers my grandparents were brokers so I worked in that side of the business worked in prop tech uh starting sold a couple software companies in residential real estate uh and then got involved in franchising in 2006 for a company called Realty World um eventually became the vice president there and then uh my business partner today from next home and I bought that company in uh in 2014 we ran that franchise here in Noracal with about 400 offices across the northern california market and then we started next home in 2014 which is our current national franchise and that uh after about a 10 year run it's about 630 locations uh across the US um we do company does a lot of business you over 30,000 deals with over 12 billion in volume annually so it's not a small business um it's been a fun ride and uh now we're in the thick of all the change going on right so okay thank you for that and we're going to put links to everything we talk about in the show notes uh as a matter of fact you're also our co-host of a podcast right real estate insiders unfiltered which I've been listening to and you have some you have access to high level people such as the uh current CEO of the NAR other folks so anybody who's listening mostly loan officers listening to this uh first of all share this conversation with your real estate agents by the way this is a great way to get some uh engagement and uh conversation with agents but also check the links in the show notes um okay so we're five days in to this uh august 17th NAR settlement thing kicking into official gear you've you've got obviously a very strong pulse the real estate industry you've got thousands of agents uh do you have a report card yet from the streets on how this has been going i mean i'll put it this way it's not it's all things not unexpected um you know the companies that were prepared and had been really ahead of this like my six thousand agents don't they're all very clear on what the rules are we retrain them before the verdict even happened in october we retrain them uh starting the september last year so you know when if you were in if you were in an organization that was understanding the changes and wasn't fighting it and just kind of going this is where the puck's gonna be we got to skate towards that um we're we're prepared i can't say that about everybody else um there's you know there's a lot of people who waited till the last minute don't understand the rules don't agree with the settlement don't agree with the terms we want to fight it and so we certainly are seeing you know two camps the camp of this is the process this is how we communicate we're not doing cooperative compensation any further um and this is direction we're gonna go and then you're seeing people go screw the lawyers we don't care uh and we're gonna continue to do things the way we have or try to find what we're calling workarounds all of which those people will eventually get sued and there's been two interviews done by the main uh the plaintiffs lawyers uh or the past few days on in menus Michael catchmark and Douglas Miller who was behind the morale case out of Illinois who have put in no under no uncertain terms their intentions of making an example out of uh additional organizations that are not following it or are trying to do workarounds and i look i think that we're in the first inning for lawsuits um this industry as much as i love it with a passion you know has a lot of people that just can't get out their own way and you're gonna see more lawsuits occur and unfortunately these lawsuits are gonna be very expensive because you know i am a name defendant in one of these cases and i can tell you the legal bills are massive the only people winning on this is the lawyers of course and unfortunately smaller companies if they get sued will bankrupt themselves they won't have the funds to defend it so i i heard a term it might have been you who said this uh 20 to 40% Exodus uh the real estate population yeah yeah yeah i think it's it's somewhere in that number keeping in mind we've already had some of that decline already over the past 12 months but you're gonna see it really go into full effect here because this decoupling of compensation is gonna it's gonna create the haves and have nots the agents that know what they're doing and can articulate value or are gonna do just fine agents that don't or in it part time we're gonna have a harder time with it um they'll see commission rates or compensation rates drop i'm estimating anywhere between 50 to 100 basis points and uh and then you'll start to see some pretty significant Exodus from the business so do you think um you know you you have a strong tech understanding and you know market efficiencies and you know there's there's some some narratives around you know the market will always find the most efficient way i guess if you want to kind of use that angle do you think this is just was a matter of time that this was gonna happen and this will bring additional call it efficiencies professionalism whatever you know anyway to the industry uh long term yes short term i'm worried yeah i don't think it's gonna be smooth um i you know just there's going back to even just cooperative compensation you know exp's out there said they're not doing any further we're not doing any further um and so it there's a lot of companies that are moving to this camp of we're not gonna do things the old way and there's a lot of companies that don't want to do that and so i think you're gonna see a lot of really shady practices somewhere in the middle of all that for a bit until people realize that they need to start making the shift and i do have some anecdotes um just in general i i think that people i i think the lawyers and everybody who's trying to make these changes don't understand the psychology of buyers and sellers they don't want to be unrepresented it's an infrequent complicated transaction um and they are wanting to sell and buy a house and what i mean by that is the seller is interested in selling their home whatever it's gonna take to do that and this is a part that i think is really interesting we're in the you know not of arguably right now based upon the past few years not the greatest rate environment you know we're used to much lower interest rates if you go back in time we all know this is actually isn't that bad but that's not the point um and so the people that have been selling their houses over the past you know 2022 and 2023 and so far this year have been having to sell their houses because of life events like just life kids job transfer whatever it is and so we've been around four million units annually those people want to sell their house so my point behind this is it they're going to continue to do what it takes to make that happen and if it requires this seller to pay the buyer's agents compensation because we all know who are listening to this the buyer cannot afford more stuff out of pocket they're gonna do it and the anecdote is this on my podcast we have a one coming out next week it'll be a very controversial podcast and i'm trying to get canceled where we uh we brought a broker on who stopped uh offering compensation to the buyer's agent november last year wow early bird yeah right after the verdict he decided to do it and we brought him on to share his story and he did seven listing since then all of them offered zero but he stated the sellers willing to entertain any and all requests just put it in your offer which is what we've been teaching and i can tell you in every single one of those scenarios where the the buyer needed the buyer the seller to pay the buyer's agents fee they did and everybody got paid because the seller the psychology is when you sell your house you have equity but it's kind of found money like you didn't have really access to it now you do and they all want to sell their house so they're going to do what it takes to put a deal together so i'm not in this camp of you know this is going to go the rate the the route of AI is going to do this whole thing i think that's bullshit nobody wants to AI the sale of their home it's way too complicated and frequent to do that um do i think technology will shift things sure in time but this is still extraordinarily stressful emotional paperwork intensive and relationship based even on the loan side like i it's it's still people want to sit down and talk with somebody and figure out what whether making the right decision etc so short term i think you're going to see some of this you're going to see things somewhat stays out as well before it changes so like any change right there's the pendulum this wings um what then back to this whole uh you know we're not doing the cooperative compass we're not advertising are we co-opping on compensation submit all offers what have you and speak to what you're comfortable around or not but you know what i'm seeing is certain camps provide training around advising the seller on the pluses and minuses of transferring buyer compensation are you endorsing that as well 100% and it's a very simple conversation so this is to me there only the only them would be controversial like a normal amp the only reason a seller in this new world should be offering compensation in advance of an offer is if it's a buyer's market where you've got just a couple buyers lots of houses and you're going to try and incentivize a buyer to buy your home to over another here's the part this really controversial this is what we get everybody thinking so effective august 17th mandatory buyer rep agreement before you show a property which means that every agent is going to sit down with a buyer have a conversation about their services what they're doing the products all of the stuff including cop and the buyer in the buyer's agent will agree to those terms there's no scenario in this new world where those rates don't vary significantly you know inexperienced agents are going to charge a lot less to get a deal done experience agents are going to charge a lot more so here's the rep in a world where that now exists the selling agent the listing agent knows that rate is going to vary and you have a fiduciary responsibility to your seller which is going to be to get the highest net price possible why would you ever offer or tell a buyer what you're willing to do in advance of an offer because hypothetically speaking let's say an agent was paid X and the list in the seller was willing to offer double that if you if the buyer's agent was only going to be paid half of that amount based upon the agreement and you advertise something double you just told what told the buyer what to put in the offer and now you just left money on the table so the next claim that I think you're going to see and my lawyers have confirmed this is you might see fiduciary breach claims coming from sellers saying why would you advertise this price why would you advertise this rate when the buyer's agent was only needed X to be paid you just literally screwed me out of whatever amount of money and that's an easy claim to show because you simply you're just simply subpoenaing the records of the deal you can see what the buyer's agent was paid what you advertise there's your damages and voila you've got another action class action claim so what we're teaching Jeff is really important we're telling the seller this so Mr. Mrs. Seller here's the deal what's most important to you and they go the net great we figured that would be your answer so what we're going to tell you is this we're going to say seller is willing to entertain any and all requests put it in your offer the list in the or this by an agent calls what are you offering sellers will entertain any and all requests put in your offer so you're not offering compensation no we're not saying that we're saying we're willing to entertain any request that your buyer has just put it in the offer and so we take the offers in we look at those offers we come up with a strategy to respond counter all of them accept it whatever you want to do but the point here is even when the seller is saying I don't want to offer any compensation to the buyer's agent we go Mr. Mrs. Seller I'm gonna I'm gonna you're entitled to do that to be clear and we're not suggesting otherwise but I'm gonna actually suggest that you don't do any of that let us just get the offers in and then we'll respond because Mr. Mrs. Seller this is most important you said net correct and they're going to go yes by the way this is real world examples of what's happening you may get two offers one of them's all cash at asking price with the buyer saying they'll pay their buyer's agents fee and you're going woohoo great I got what I wanted but what if a second offer came in a hundred thousand dollars over but asked you to pay the buyer's agents fee through the closing process but it netted you fifty thousand dollars more which one's actually more a better offer and they go oh I didn't thought about it that way so don't leave all that stuff off the table we're just going to bring offers in and then figure out our strategy forward yeah plus that that also positions the listing agent to to provide more negotiation more value to the transaction you know the whole point that the thing to me about what I I'm I'm trying to educate the industry on this they just are not there yet they'll get there it doesn't matter it in the world of negotiation it means nothing I don't give a shit if the seller says sold as is okay my buyer wants the couch so like it's going to get put in the offer and you as a seller can choose whether you want to accept it or not like it just the whole point is there's a house for sale there's a buyer who wants to write an offer be it that's just the whole the whole conversation is going to boil down to that we just are going to get it's going to be a lot of waves to get to that point so let's let's go devils advocate here for a minute because I think you and I have a mutual acquaintance yeah with Christy Janks over there and this was a response to that scenario you basically just laid out was you know submit all offers all offers you know will will entertain and of course there's an agent who responded um there are buyers already stating that they will not visit a home that's not being offered comp blah blah blah right so you get the whole I don't think that's a strategy of work for them so we need to know ahead of time whether there's comp by the seller or not how do you respond to that the buyers agents not doing their job correctly okay we're really simple so mr. and Mrs. buyer so I'm going to give you the other script so in this new decoupled world this is my fee this is what we agreed to this is my service is blah blah blah blah okay we have a couple ways that we can do this for for payment you can pay it is one way to do it or we can put that request in the offer as the second step so we can ask the seller to pay my fee directly or the third option is we can ask a seller for concessions that go to you and then you can turn around and pay their my fee and put it towards other closing costs whatever it is mr. Mrs. buyer you need to understand that in this new world every house is for sale and it's my job to get you into that property so any house you want to look at we're going to look at it we're going to tour it we're going to write an offer on it and then I'm going to negotiate with the listen agent on how to make this all work for you and if for any reason they won't do it and you can't pay it well then we'll have to adjust at that point in time but every house is for sale I will show it to you we will write an offer we will negotiate and here's the thing I guarantee you sellers are wanting to sell their house so we'll try to figure out a strategy do that and then I'll add the fourth piece we're going to work with our loan officer so all loan officers listening on the strategy on how to do all of this stuff too so that we can write it a write a contract that is getting win out on others will come up with a strategy together so we can make this happen that's the pitch that's it there is nothing else to it other than that and so any buyers agent that is not doing that to be clear because I hope want them to hear this you are violating your fiduciary duty you are not following what you should be doing and you should leave the industry because if you can't do your job correctly then you don't belong representing buyers in this market it is that simple it's just that simple so see some tantrums happening across the country it is and it's and look I mean I'll share with you I saw some stuff today where I'm just like they're creating forms which I'm going to tell you right now because I have deep connections as you are aware to a lot of the people in the industry including the plaintiffs in the department of justice brokers that are creating forms and having buyers sign them that state they're not going to be shown houses that don't offer conversation advance will get sued that's not steering really that's called steering and then when they're doing it together with other companies it's called collusion and so I found out about three of them doing it today in a market that they're colluding to make this so it keeps things standardized every single one of those brokerages will get sued and they will spend a hundred thousand dollars a month in legal fees defending themselves or if they can't afford it will bankrupt their company that is literally where this is going to go in the two comments that were done by Douglas Miller and Michael catch mark over the past two days was exactly that they are going to target people and they will make an example out of people that are doing it yeah wasn't a catch mark who said I'll be watching they are they both are yeah Douglas Miller was involved in the in behind the scenes on morale and then catch mark was obviously Burnett and Sitzer they're all collaborating together because it's all one big class at this point all right but well okay so you mentioned the loan officers and and seeing as that's who's mostly listening to this but if you did receive this podcast by way of a loan officer you're a real estate agent make sure you thank them and ask them more about this um strategy we're going to talk about right now which is what happens when the buyer can't pay the agent out of pocket what are the options and say the seller isn't paying this is where financing right creatively comes in and uh as I'm sure you will know James been others that are listening you can finance that into the loan or finance that into the price um do you have any opinions on that other than what you just said those are the options I think that I'll go deeper a little bit in that I believe for every loan officer listening here you have the greatest opportunity of your career so just for clarity we have a mortgage company as well um and I can tell you what everyone of our loan officers is doing we told them get your butt on the phone call every single agent you've ever worked with ask them to sit down so that you can talk about strategy on how to get your compensation covered your buyers into a house both strategy when you're asking for excuse me concessions when you're asking to have the seller pay it directly like this is the time where you create a much tighter bond between you and your agents and I will go as far as saying I think it's smart that the uh the loan officer even even attends some of these buyer consults and sits down and articulates value on what they do so I love this idea of an agent going here's the 150 things I'm going to do in a real estate transaction over the next 90 days and this is my job by the way this is this is Jeff my loan officer he's a badass and these are the extra 230 things we got to get right to make sure that your loan gets approved qualified gets through underwriting we we make all the stuff to come together so we're going to jointly talk about what this experience looks like two things occur there one is credibility two complexity we want the consumer to understand this isn't an easy thing to do and three that they feel like they have a team working for them I think that's a huge thing I'll go step further than that I think it's important that loan officers are talking with listing agents having them understand the different ways to receive offers and how they can make sure the seller understands that it's not just about whether you're paying compensation or not there are ways that you can get a higher net by having offers structured in such a fashion to do that that example I gave you of you know AB so to me this is a this is a huge opportunity for the industry to collaborate more closely and educate I would tell you I think there's so much freaking confusion out there every L.O. and the agent should be doing sessions for the consumer like explaining the new world what does all this mean what does it mean to you no you don't actually have to come out a pocket to pay your buyers agent that all the stuff that press and all the stupid mainstream media continues to put out is not accurate we all know it's not accurate but buyers are only hearing what they see in the New York Times or Wall Street Journal or whatever and we have to have such a louder voice about what is actually happening boots on the ground which is a huge opportunity to to get you know new business but we're not like no one's doing that I don't see any of these webinars or seminars going on on on you know social media right now at least I'm not getting asked to attend them so I think there's a tremendous amount of opportunity to collaborate with this agreed I just wrote that down because as you may recall that's a lot of what I do is help originators put on events and classes so yeah just out of that one down do the because everyone's still yeah the home buyer seminar about how about in the new world right of home buying all that I mean every home buyer thinks what they're reading online and the stuff that all the mainstream media is putting out is like okay buyers have to pay for their agent now it's not yeah no that's not accurate at all like yeah and I love the fact that you took the listing agent angle which I've been preaching for years I used to go after listing agents when I was originating and you know for multiple reasons but like they want to make the listing as attractive as possible they know they're going to have buyers who can't pay out a pocket so loan officer you can work with your listing agent to structure finance flyers scenarios whatever put the cool videos together that shows hey here's your four options forgetting in this house right under the new rules also I would consider doing more open houses then you've done before we're past COVID we're all live still like least he's here so like my point is just go like if you got opportunities to bring buyers in to your point have those financing flyers give them options help them understand there are ways to do that another thing to add into this is you can throw on the webinar that you're going to do or what anybody else is going to do the legal risk of being unrepresented in a transaction which buyers are going to be thinking about this significantly is massive and one of the other talking points we do with sellers is to go look where you're going to see a couple things happen number one you're going to see buyers ask to be dual you know dual agency I'm a huge huge like I hate dual agency I think it's a abomination for the industry it's there's no scenario where somebody doesn't feel screwed in that situation and so you know we're teaching we don't do dual agency here I want my representations to you if you share it to you specifically that's why you hired me but mr. miss seller I also think it's incredibly important that we have the buyer represented by somebody who understands how to do this process because if we don't there's a much higher chance that this whole thing could end up in litigation and that cost of litigation is going to be significantly higher than making sure that there was representation on the side I don't care if it's a lawyer I don't care what like the quality of the agent I just want somebody on that other side with an EEO policy to represent them so there's the most sellers go yeah that makes sense like you know so that there's there's these multiple pieces to talk about with educating people on this on this process and we're just not having those discussions the final thing I'll throw in ENO coverage going to be a big big topic coming up because all the agents that are doing dual agency you're going to see litigation increase which I've talked to any of companies I know this litigation will go up ENO carriers will go yeah we're not doing that anymore if you want to do dual agency your coverage costs are going to double or triple we don't know how insurance works and then eventually they'll just go nah we're not going to cover anybody doing dual agency and before you know it all these companies are like whoa we can't get ENO coverage and so you can see what this next like massive problem coming a lot of what needs to happen is setting proper policy now so that you're not dealing with these issues right in six months to a year love that good notes there for everybody listening what have you done then around coaching training your agents buyer side I'm sure you do both but obviously particularly on the buyer side because you know to use the old example of like you know what did somebody I was talking to thousand while consulting and they said you know if you're if my price to work with you is zero I can't value you you know what I mean like how do I value what you do so I'm working a lot right as a matter of fact I have a slide deck here in front of me which is for long officers to teach agents about how to level up their buyer presentation value proposition and all that stuff what what do you been doing with your people on that so two things number one you're you know I'm involved in the venture called raise which is this new prop tech company that is basically tracking I'm going to simplify here but it basically tracks everything a realtor does all their phone calls a log their time their mileage you know how long it takes them to write email everything kind of like a lawyer and concept creates this collaborative cool experience for the buyer to see everything the realtor is going to do an amazing buyer presentation laying out the 195 things are going to do in the process the app to collaborate and then the closing report which is just killer so it's everything they did over the course of you know 60 70 days whatever the time frame is the agents are taking those reports on their next buyer console going here's the amount of work involved to work with you know to get to get you into a home and they're showing examples of that very specific details that's the first thing yeah articulating your value very clearly because nobody knows what the hell we do so now we're bringing to light all of this all of these activities the second thing which is where we've moved we've been training our people on this for a while is you have to treat your buyer like a seller and what that means is you don't go out on a listing presentation and just hand them the listing agreement you do a consult you talk to them here's my marketing my advertising what I do this is the social media stuff is how we're going to create you know all just the whole list of stuff nobody does that on the buyer side right like nobody does that and so we've created an entire new package for our agents to sit down with a buyer do the consult go through things with raise here's what you know here's everything that's going to happen what I'm going to do in the experience and here's an example the services I'm going to provide so I'll just give a couple for a context so we cut a deal with a company called Kubikasa they do floor plans and it sounds weird but only 30% of listings have floor plans it's ridiculous but that's the number and so as a service we go mr. missus buyer any house you look at that you're interested in potentially write an offer on let me know and I'll go out there and create a floor plan for you and so they create the floor plan for the for the buyer to see like what the house is that it's an experience of not having to go toward the home that'll do it for you ahead of time and it's an extra service they'll do a thing like we call a revive remodel here's what the current state of the home is we think you could put 50,000 into this particular property and the upside leg potential on it is an extra 250 we'll do a quote on that get like a whole process together on what we think the home could be with a certain amount of investment because it is an investment and so we want to tell them here's where you're at here's what you could do here's the cost to do that and here's what the upside you know potential might be we give our buyers an app called front door at the closing it's this really cool app where it's like a handyman in your pocket you have a problem you can't free I'd use the thermostat pull up front door it's branded to the agent and all of a sudden they can contact front door it comes on video chat and they'll show you how to use the next thermostat so we just we're thinking about how do you create services to increase your value that you would same concept on the list side on the buy side and man it just works it's not it's like buyers go shit like I make complete sense I love it I love what you're doing I'll pay you that and then we have the conversation with them about here's how my compensation works if we can't get the seller to pay it and we can't get you a concession then either you have to pay it or we have to think about looking at another property or coming down in price we can get more aggressive on the price when we're a little bit down in the price rate like this this just strategy right that's it that's all it is yeah reminds me of back in the day you just work with Walter Sanford at a long beach oh man that's a name I haven't heard no Walter yeah with a little dynamite thing yes the dynamite mailers yeah I did that as an L.O. I was sending those to realtors also so Walter was an amazing marketer but he was like I think early on and of course a lot of people use this or used to I guess but seems like it's gone away though but like that concierge service right where here's a list of my like you're to but you've got the modern version right the front door the the cuba casa but he had like all carpenters builders whatever and we do the same thing here's our here's my role it acts of people to work with that's part of it as well but we actually are putting services like paid services into it and I've told agents look you should be taking 10% of whatever compensation that you have that you're making should go back into products and services provided the bar and we also know this so we're teaching to you know different levels of service this is my tears tears and there's I don't it sounds dirty and bad word but like it's not because if I bought a home before right and I've been through the process I don't I probably don't need as much of that hand holding so to me that's like your your tier one your tier two is your first time home buyer who is just needs to be held through the entire experience that's this level of service and then there's the Ritz Carlton tier three and I love to use one of my business partners one of the coolest people possibly is my coast on the podcast I love him dearly and I would say this to his face one of the laziest people I know as well who who's the guy that would pay a premium and did when he bought his house to have somebody pack all his shit unpack all of his stuff have the landscapers there have the cleaning company there like he just wanted to be able to move and move in and didn't want to deal with anything else and pay the premium to do that and I think there is a whole market for that too so what we know for fact is that Americans are we we are in a world where it takes two incomes to make a living anymore for almost anybody in this country 60% dual income households now and nobody wants to do this on their own and we're also all about convenience and service that's literally every survey you ever read is Americans want convenience think doordash we pay just as much to have the food delivered as the food itself and service create those experiences people pay board two quick things one of the the tiered service reminds me of a story I heard years back I forget it was it was a high level executive I think of a tech firm he was moving and talk about like he didn't want to be involved at all he had photos taken of all his furniture and everything in the existing house so that the movers could put it in the new house in the right exactly where he wanted it and like two weeks later he moved in just open door boom ready to go I mean that's brilliant Keith had Keith had a spec a specific individual who came in to figure out how to I don't even know what you call it feng shui the kitchen so that all of your stuff is put away in a logical place right like pots and pans in this story because it makes are you right hand or you left hand like yeah but that's my point somebody's willing to pay a premium for all that right yeah you shouldn't you shouldn't like pre-judge on what people want to pay for yeah speaking of that this is the last point that we're wrap up and you're busy is we're already seeing it you know the flat fee on the buyer side which are take on that do these new business models and how do you think those will play out in the market it's going to come down to one thing it's going to come down to how good of a job buyers agents do and explaining to buyers how compensation will be paid and what I mean by that is if the buyer thinks they have to come out a pocket every time then I think you'll see these business models pick up if the buyers agents you know get their head out of their butt and like think about this a little bit and actually explain to the buyer that this isn't really something you have to do and we can probably get the seller to do it and have that conversation then I'll go back to the comment I just made and I can give you some statistics for this so I think most Americans don't pre they don't know most people don't prefer to work with what they perceive as a discount service they want a full service experience yeah here's some examples of that red fins been around for a long time really really struggled to take off there's still a very small company in you know the north the north the the northwest most of the stuff is referred out across the U.S. Foxden's came over from the UK flat rate business model I think it was like 3995 bankrupt within 18 months purple breaks most recent one came over 2017 bankrupt Americans love this idea of having somebody handle everything for them and they're getting the full experience they like a discount price but they want a full experience so it's going to end up with this one thing if the industry does a good job of of showing and explaining to a buyer you can get full service and you're likely not going to have to come out of pocket on that then I don't think those business models take off if they can't get that figured out I think you'll see these things game or market share so makes me think whatever happened to help you sell 1976 was when they were founded and they're up they're a tiny tiny player in the market yeah and you would have thought during the greatest real estate you know uptick people would have used them and they just people want the what they do with the physicals why are fizzbo such a small percentage still seven percent last year lowest in recorded history yeah yeah and of course as you know the percentage of people using realtor as increased not decreased over the years it's because it's a complicated transaction and attorneys despite how much I don't like them because of all of this nonsense that they're doing they've made it more complex and people also realize that it's incredibly complex paperwork intensive risky transaction and so that's that's also driven that up so that's the only time I'm going to thank lawyers for what they do so yeah it's a it's one of those things where it's it is it's all going to be it's all going to rest on leadership in our industry and how they teach their people yeah yeah which which by the way or one quick question before I let you go if I'm correct did I read that they just appointed a permanent CEO to the NAR they did yeah Nicky how do you point out permanent CEO like isn't that anti you know what I mean like how do you know that's always going to be performing well I mean all I can say is through all the drama they had over there between Kenny Parcell's departure you know the former CEO Bob Goldberg departing they brought Nikiya right in his you know I interviewed her if you guys want to check that out it's on our podcast we just did that interview last week um you know she's very smart she's very bright she has a significant business background she's not from real estate but I also admire about her she doesn't pretend to understand her industry like she knows it all she's she's willing to listen um they had her in as an interim while they were on a CEO search but then they've decided to keep her on for as a you know instead of interim it's now permanent um I don't know what that contract length is that was not disclosed was not told so um we've got you know she's in the seat and certainly we're wishing her the best and I know that we're gonna try and help her as long the way to help get this industry back on the right track so I promised last question but I lied then do you also see a mass exit us out of NAR itself I know you guys by the way I listened to that podcast and we'll link it up in the show notes but it was a really great conversation about um you know the value uh of NAR for members and advocacy and things like that but do you see people bailing on NAR I think NAR has some pretty significant issues it needs to come to grips with and I don't believe that they see it yet um I think there's a little bit of some word I'm looking for I don't know we'll just say that they are not was that mutiny um well I was gonna say that I think there's maybe a little bit of uh they're being a little naive to the amount of discourse towards NAR right now um you have to remember that in the settlement anybody who did more than two billion dollars in volume was left out and so all of those companies might included got sued separately and had to do separate settlements and negotiations on that and so the problem with what they did and I know they had to do it I'm not a hundred percent agreement they had to do it that way but let's just go with the fact that's what it is yeah is that you know 70% to 80% of the realtor members work for one of those hundred companies right and so there's a lot of discourse there if NAR was being incredibly strategic right now they would be figuring out how to build a bridge back to those companies and if they don't then I do think you'll see a mass exodus from NAR and that will be a shame because to the comment you made and we can wrap here is it NAR what its greatest strength is is its power in Washington DC just like NBA like the whole you know getting the VA to make changes was because NBA and NAR were working together and there are very strong force in DC politics if NAR is weakened in size or position there's a there's a very strong chance politicians who we all can all agree or for the most part completely useless will write bills that will not be favorable for home ownership and then it will affect all industries and the lending industry included so it's a it is a concern that if they lose their membership they'll lose their power in DC all right well this has been a fantastic conversation for those listening please check the links in the show notes to all of James resources podcast company new startup rays are a YSE James thank you so much man I appreciate it of course my friend thanks for having me on you bet listeners you know what to do if you like this episode there's a link to also leave us a review so do that in the show notes and we'll see you on the next one