How Loan Officers Are Losing Deals To A $20/Month Chatbot

Welcome to the Mortgage Marketing Radio Show. I'm today's host, Katie Shive, filling in for Jeff Simper. Now, normally before each show, we would give you a teaser on who the guest is and share some backstory so that you understand what you're about to hear for the show. But I have a different kind of receipt for you today and I'm really excited for you to meet our guest. Now, Trevor York is the founder of Link Spot. He has had massive influence in the mortgage industry specifically and he is truly somebody that I would say a creative genius. He is out of Reno, Nevada. But I know him as the guy who used to roll into our college presentations five minutes before the clock started without a single note and he would absolutely crush the room while his now wife, then girlfriend, and I had spent all weekend in the library slaving over every detail the slide deck and all of the papers that went with him. So Trevor is a dear friend. He is a dad. He is a husband. He has two rowdy boys and to be honest, he is somebody that if he's not on your radar, he absolutely needs to be. So welcome to the show. Trevor, let's get into today's episode. Welcome to the show, Trevor. It's so awesome to have you join us today. It's stuck to be here, Katie. It's good to see you. Yeah, it's this feels a little bit like college all over again. We obviously have a little bit of a fun history that most professionals in our industry don't have. I would love to know what's your version of going to college together. My version is that I would not have graduated college without you. What is your version? You would not have graduated college without you. Okay, cool. Same version. That's probably fair. You don't know. Is that an assumption or an elaboration? But as I mentioned, you're really kind of like a career. I think of you like a creative savant. Like you are just wicked creative. What is most frustrating about you is you would roll into any final assignment, like five minutes before class started. I don't even think you ever had notes. I don't even know if Jess ever practiced your notes. Well, yes. I mean, we'd have the final project, but then you would just walk up to give the presentation and you have this skill to just talk. And to talk in a way that's not salesy and it's not like, you know, I mean, you probably could sell water to an Eskimo. But it was really cool to see you have that skill and that strength really early on. And even now to watch you hone and like develop that craft. So actually, like, let's dive in there for a second because you make, I think from the outside looking in, people might look at you and be like, Trevor has his stuff together like his marketing is on lock, his content, his copy, you know, you're a licensed originator. Like, you've been in the business since 2017. And you, like, what brought you into mortgage? I mean, my, my story is like, everybody else is like, you just accidentally end up in mortgage, right? Like, I don't think anybody kind of had that on the road. Yeah, wait up and be like, I want to be a loan officer someday. Yeah, exactly. When we were sitting in college together, like, that was never a conversation that came up. That was not something to be honest. I didn't know this, this job existed. Like, I kind of like a lot of people I thought, like, one day you get a mortgage. I guess you go to your bank and you get the loan and I didn't know there were people that did this. And I mean, I met a guy on a plane going to Vegas. There's like a very, very long story short talk to him. He owned a title company, some again, like three months later after I just sold the company that I was running when I had talked to him. And he's like, dude, how's the business going? I was like, I actually sold it. So I'm just pre-tired. It was kind of a call. I was like, just skiing every day and not working. And so I was like, so if you know anyone higher and then he's like, dude, I'll take you. I'm like, I don't, what do you do on the title company? So then, you know, turn of events. I was going to work with him at a title company. And then he's like, actually, I just sold my title company. And I'm going into lending. You got a spot where I go. And then, yeah, that's kind of how it unfolded. And now we're here. Now we're slinging loans. Now we're slinging loans almost 10 years later. What's ironic part is both of us have completely different journeys and how we got into mortgage. But we both landed in this industry. Having started in college together. And obviously, both from the same town. Okay, so talk me through like you started in mortgage in 2017. And you are traditionally unconventional. So you started in 2017 knowing nothing about the industry, but having a couple mentors. And if I remember correctly, your mentors were older. Like they've been in the industry for a long time. So really kind of that old school way of this is how we've always done it. Because this is how it's always been done. Right. And really early on as I watched and had conversations with you, you challenged that very quickly. So talk me through what was the point where you were like, hey, this is not the best way to do business. And if I'm going to be successful in this business, I certainly am not going to do it. Quote how it's always been done. It's so funny because like you of all people and talking about college like you saw at first hand, a lot of the things that have have served me well in business were also very bad things. The majority of my life because school. Right. And so it's exactly what you just said. Like there's probably a better way to do this. So there's a different way to do this. And so like in college, that was I would wait for you and my wife Jess to finish your papers than I would read your paper to write my own paper. Because that's your AI before. Exactly. And so I'm like, okay, I could read the, you know, 150 pages to write this report. Or I'll read your two page report to write my two rage report. It's always like some of it was, I mean, it was definitely like a negative thing. But when I got into mortgage and just in business in general, it's served me really well is like questioning the way that things are done. And I think a lot of people don't do that. And it's kind of cool that something that has been, something I've battled my whole life ended up being something that has been like, oh, no, that's a good thing. Encourage, you know, questioning like, but why do we do it this way? Can I do it this other way? Why not do it this other way? And it's funny as it is too. I don't know if you remember this. This was when I first got into mortgage, me and you had a meeting and this was you tried to hire two years before you got in. This will be a question. No, I was, I was actively looking for a role because I had just left the Fintech company that I was at. Okay. I was actively looking and you're like, hey, we should go to coffee. And I think you just knew our collaboration and synergy and you're like, I think you need to come join me. But at the time, do you remember what position you had or what the, what you were trying to bring me in for? I think it was an L-O-A, right? Yeah, it was an L-O-A. So it was my more technical. Yeah. And I ended up taking a more like, at the time of a marketing role at GIL. So you're a competitor in the same town. Yeah. I know, I will always wonder what the path would have looked like if I had started on your team. Not that that's a regret, but I'm just curious like what that journey would have looked like. I know and it's funny because that, the reason you came to mind too is for that reason of like, I kind of knew what a traditional L-O-A looked like. But knowing your skill set was the thing that like, again, trying to look at it from a different lens of like, what would happen if me and you were doing this? And then there's a different way. And then we're focusing on being like a very marketing heavy and marketing oriented team. And fun enough like the Amanda who works at Link Spot and runs a lot of the business here was like brought in at my mortgage company to help me with loans. And it's with that same focus. But yes, I was kind of in short, that questioning kind of why we do what we do and having incredible mentors, but mentors that have been in the business for 30 years at the time. And I was like, I've only been alive for 24 years. You've been doing this job for 30. And they've been doing it the same way. And the guy I worked for originally is like, the greatest human ever. Still super good friend, strong faith. Someone that I still look up to a lot. But the way he built his business was like, as old school as it gets. And so when I started to push, I'm like, man, I think it's just a him thing, you know, like there's probably better ways. And then I look at the rest of the industry, I'm like, this is pretty industry-wide. Like no one's really like using direct marketing, no one's using internet marketing at all, right? Like there was not any elbows making videos. Or if you look at, I mean, I think from the top down, like at the enterprise or the corporate level, you have your very generic standard, you know, templated marketing stuff. But that really has no impact. Like I don't even think people look at that much anymore. Yeah. But yeah, so you, so talk me through a little bit because your background before you even got into lending, like you were really strong in video. You had a business that did video as well. So you were comfortable on camera, and you were also really fluent in using the, you know, the gear and whatnot. So did you bring in video, like video emails, video texting, like pretty early on as part of your communication strategy? Not as early as I should have. Um, but yeah, prior to doing loans and like going through college out, shoot videos, film weddings, make YouTube videos. So like I knew video really well. And then straight out of college, I went into sales. And so I had like sales and video. And that's where what kind of created this perfect storm for the content that I started creating. But it was funny because it was something that I kept wanting to do. Like I just need to make videos and talk about this because I was confused buying a house. And I've been investing like since high school. So I feel like I understand finance, I understand money, I understand economics really well. And I was so confused when I went to buy a house. And like if I'm confused, everyone's confused. Now, did you buy a house after you had become an originator or before? Literally like I was going through the licensing process while I bought my house. So you were essentially your first client. In a way, you were like test case number one. And if I am confused and I'm a millennial, how many more trevers are there out there in the world that feel like this system was not made for this type of, like this age bracket? Exactly. And it kind of, it almost took me a year to come back to that because there's that piece of, especially when in 2017 is like, you know, you had to crash a lot of people who didn't have a solid mortgage business got out of the business. No one was going into mortgage. And so in 2017 when I started and I was 24, I think or 23 or 24, there was no one that was even like below 35 in mortgage, at least in our market, right? Like there were very few young people. And so I had this fear of like I need to make sure people know I know what I'm talking about because I'm competing against 40, 50, 60 year olds who have been doing this job for 30 years. And so I was doing the things that I thought I should to make people think that I was trust. Like credibility or something, yes. And unfortunately that looked like the exact thing that I did not like when I went through which is using industry jargon, dressing in a very specific way with your colored shirt on. And right, and it just, I'm like, this was the exact thing I didn't like when I was getting a mortgage. But it unfortunately took me a year for that to like, so can I stop doing this? I'm going to do it in a different way. Interesting. So you took your personal experience, which I think is the best way to build any business on if you're going to revamp a system is like, okay, what like you're the closest to really at that point figuring out what was broken or what didn't make sense because it was a completely foreign process for you. So then fast forward a little bit. You figure out, okay, this is the type of content that would help and it was largely, you know, education. So then what did you start doing? So a lot of it was like, there's stuff that I was learning that I was like, well, I actually didn't know this. And so this is information that I want to give to people. And at the time like Facebook was the only place, I mean, YouTube, right, but to get to my sphere like Facebook videos. And so my first few videos I need to find them because they're terrible. And I think it would be great to show people. But it was just like giving information in a video. So I'd make a four minute video about FHA loans. And it was weird because people actually did appreciate that education. And without jumping too far ahead, the kind of process of like, how do I strip that down to be a video that actually want to watch? And then, you know, going from four minutes and shortening them and shortening them. But yeah, that was kind of the idea. It's like, there's actually information. I feel like people should know. And this is a good way to give it to them. So then fast forward, you obviously started growing. And then what was your transition? Like I know that you joined all Western mortgage and you and Neil started building some really cool things. This is also why it's fun to just kind of have this behind the scenes conversation. Also being in Reno, on the guild side, like, guild has a very strong market share, like a very heavy market share in whole market. Yes, to put it lightly, humbly. And then you have Neil and Trevor doing things with all Western mortgage. And I remember like seeing stuff pop up in some of these like community Facebook groups, like the Northern Nevada Real Estate professionals. And I remember seeing like you and Neil were teaching a class at KW down in South Reno, if you remember this. And I was like, I am going to come. You know, like I got to keep a pulse on the confidence. And I remember just watching you guys. And it is so, it is what I want to highlight is, I think we have a propensity to look at where people are today and we don't see what they were building, right? So I can say firsthand, I was in the room in 2018 when you and Neil were literally doing webinars in the hallway with a TV, like on a rolling cart. Like you're no tech, nothing. And what I love about that is you guys just kept your head down and you kept building. And now look at where both of you are. And let's talk about where you're at today. Like what are you doing today? Yeah, so did you want to talk about that process or talk about today? Yeah, oh yes, okay. So talk about the process, like, so what led you into that process? So it's kind of funny because the whole thing and you did get a really cool perspective of it because it went from this very localized movement where you're doing to then becoming very globalized. And at the beginning I was making the videos by myself and this was something I wanted to do and then I met Neil who's in my market. And there is only two people in all of Reno that are making videos and putting them on the internet and it was me and Neil. And I say this to Neil, so this is not it. Like, Neil's videos were very bad, right? My background was video. Neil was learning it as he goes and he just had the drive to put the stuff out there. But I was looking at it and I'm like, this guy's not a video guy, not this guy. You know, and so at first I kind of had this like, when I saw Neil post and I'm like, dang it, this is my lane, you know, but then also I'm like, what are these guys videos? These are terrible. And then he did a little class and he opened it up to realtors and lenders and I'm like, I wanna go to this guy's and it was like how to dominate with video or something. I'm like, this guy doesn't even, let's see what this is about. You know, and I went to his class with like six people in it and afterwards he came up and he was just like, dude, I've seen your videos like those are awesome. Have you thought about any of these just like, I think he was as excited as I was that collaborating with someone else that is interested in the same things you are. And then the cool part again, like my background was in video and Neil's trying to learn it as he goes. So we kind of had different skill sets that were really complementing each other. And so yeah, me and him just kept in touch after that bunch of different events happened. And I ended up switching and going and working with Neil. And the thing that I've loved about like working with Neil's, he would just push like we coming up with ideas was something that was really fun. Still is, it's my favorite thing in the world. But with Neil, it's kind of like you throw an idea out there and then it's in progress. Like, well, that was kind of, that was half baked. You know what else in it's there? Like let's do a class and all some work. Okay, we scheduled it next Friday, like dude, we don't have, what are we teaching? What are the slides look like? How are we gonna get, like, you know, that's where my head was like, wait, we gotta do a lot of stuff, dude. So I won't know, we kind of have to because we already, you know, set the date. And so then that's where yeah, we do the classes where we see you guys and we're making videos and we're making the videos better. And we made this kind of splash locally because we're, again, it was more of, more than anything, like we were just the first people doing it. And so it was like this kind of shiny object and realtors wanted to make social media videos or show them how. And then from there, it's crazy to what it's grown into for both Neil and me because as we just focused on, like, making really good videos, like my whole goal is just to make videos that people would want to watch. And so when I look back at like the first video I made four minutes long about FHA loans and how painful that is to getting to a point where we could package a really good video with a good piece of information in like 30 seconds that people would actually want to watch. That was the progression that led to it going from like, okay, we're reaching a lot of people locally to, like dude, we're reaching thousands, tens of thousands, like millions of people with this content. And then kind of the same thing locally that was happening which is people saying like how do you do it? It was happening now on a national scale. Like you're getting DMs from loan officers and realtors all over the country of like, what camera do you shoot on? How do you do this? Where do you come up with your ideas? And then that led to, you know, forward, which is like we're teaching allows and realtors all over the country and then it keeps growing from there. What I love is, yeah, just thanks for sharing part of your journey. I think, you know, locally, I don't know how people, not that they didn't take you seriously, but I think there is a, we can tend to just think that we're the dominant force or we've got market share or we've been doing this for a long time, so we're fine. Like they stop building the moat around them, right? And then you guys just kept, you kept your head down and you kept building and then all of a sudden it's like before you know it, wow, you're really a force to reckon with because you guys had started gaining trust on massive scale and that just goes to show, that's the power of video where you guys were really gaining a lot of trust, not just locally, but nationally. So talk to us about what you're doing now and what has that evolved into. So now I run a company, I started a company called Link Spot, I think we're three years and now three and a half and basically like in that process of teaching social media content to loan officers and realtors, I realized there was this missing gap and that was the thing that I was building for myself was like, okay, I teach you how to make good content, people watch your content, then what happens? And so for me and my own journey of creating content and getting a bunch of eyeballs and like how do we turn those eyeballs into leads and then there's like, okay, I need lead magnets and then I need those to live somewhere. So we got these landing pages and then I need the leads to go somewhere. So now I got my CRM and then I need to be able to nurture those leads. So then I got my email software and I built this just with individual apps and then using Zapier to connect them all. It was a mess, but it worked perfect for me. And so as I started teaching the content more, like people are like, well, dude, I need that part. Like who built your website? I'm like, I did. Like, well, who did all this? I'm like, can you do it for me? I'm like, you would hate me because this is a lot, like this is not, you're gonna need a full time person to manage this. And at the time I'm coaching some of the top producing loan officers in the country. So when I say like, you're gonna have to hire a full time person to do it, they're like, that's fine. I'll do it. And I'm like, maybe there's something here, you know, like that is obviously a massive investment for somebody to make to get this type of setup. And I'm sure I could simplify this. And then yeah, that's kind of what we built links about off of is like, if in my dream situation, I want one app that does all of these things, I gave that to a developer and that's what became links about now. It does all of that stuff just in one easy spot. So you built for the industry, the very thing that you needed. And now it has grown three years and you have hundreds and you've coached thousands of loan officers and built your own community and your own platform, which is pretty wild. One of the things I want to talk about for a second, you have a phrase and you say that normal is invisible. What do you mean by that? Like, and what does that look like for loan officers who are trying to stand out? Yeah, there's kind of two that I say a lot. And they basically have the same meeting but normal is invisible and then different is better than better. And both of those are saying the same thing, which is like, our whole goal is to be noticed and to stand out. And it's very, very easy for you and me to both say, like, what would make someone stand out? And we'll just be different, right? If you've got a hundred looking at this water bottle, water bottles lined up and we're like, okay, we want to make one stand out, what would we do? Pain it, you know, make it taller, make it shorter, make it wider, do anything to just make it look different than everybody else. But the other 99 bottles essentially become invisible when there's one that becomes very noticeable. And so it's kind of this thing that I've been trying to push a lot of the people I coach for years of like, be you and more than just being different for the sake of being different. Like it's not to go be polarizing and just throw a green hat on because you think people will notice you. It's like we're inherently different and there are things that make us ask. Like you have your kDisms that make you you show those to the world. And it is crazy how difficult the conversation that is to have with people. It's like, hey, just be yourself. And it's like, that should be the easiest thing in the world. Like if there's one person I should be able to be very easily, it's me is like, no, no, that's the hardest thing. Like it was easier for me when I got in the loans to like put my college shirt on and talk like my manager because that felt like the riskless option, right? Like it worked for him. I don't want people to like, what if, I don't know what happens if I don't wear a college shirt? Like do I get fine? Is there a, you know, like why, why is the, let's get it come out, get you. Exactly. Like at some point I started to ask those questions of like, can we do, can I do that? Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, that's a great point. So how do you feel? I mean, people struggle with that. Like as a, you know, somebody that, I also help loan officers work through their messaging and figure out, you know, these kinds of things. And that is the million dollar question. Like when I ask who are you, well, I'm a loan officer. I'm like, no, no, no, that's what you do. So like, who are you? And, you know, I always put it back. If I were to stand you up to next to three other lenders, you know, the realtors typically give out three cards. What is it that is going to make me choose you? You have to get really clear on that. Because if you don't, then your content and everything else you do is going to look the exact same. Yeah. And I think people think it might be a much bigger leap than it is. Right? Like, I, I love, I don't know, dirt bikes. Does that mean I need to be the dirt bike lender? And then I need to wear dirt bike jerseys every time I do it. Like, it doesn't need to be that big of a leap, right? Like, at the beginning for me, and it was this really cool evolution kind of for myself discovering of what all this is. But at the beginning of it was like, what makes me different than everybody else? Like you, when you say work for Gail too, like, Shayla Gifford is arguably the best L.O. in the country, right? Like, she's an absolute phenom in my hero, right? That's who I'm up against. She's in my market. Like, I'm going against the best loan opportunities in the country. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, I'm 24. I've been in the business for one year. Why would anyone use me over Shayla? She has more knowledge, she has more experience, she has a better team, she has all of these things. And so when I, and this, I, I've never seen Shayla in like a console there. And she obviously at that time was not making content. So I don't know how she would talk to customers, but based on everybody in my branch and everybody else that I had seen talk to customers in my own experience. Like, the thing that makes me is I'm going to just speak differently about this entire process, right? So before I get into the whole deeper brand of who I am, the really simple part is like, what is going to be different if someone works with me? And then that comes through in my content. So when I'm making videos, I talk very casually. I have this like delivery that made it non-threatening, right? Like when I first started making videos, like that was the point because that was what was different than everybody else. And so it wasn't this like stick that I had to do or this deep dive on my brand. Like my brand was the person that was approachable. And so that was the thing where it's like, there's been loan officers doing this way longer than me that are better at lows. And I was winning deals because people saw that first, right? Like that became the brand that I was building. And so it kind of takes a load off of like, when people have to just get really nervous of like, what is my brand, who am I? I just like, yeah, what would be different when I work with you? Well, we'd probably be talking about my kids because I have pictures of my kids all over my office. So if you came in, we'd be talking about that. Cool, where are the pictures at? Like, well, ones in Hawaii, you guys are going to Hawaii. Yes, and ones this and this. And then all of a sudden you realize like who these people are and they become, yeah, real people instead of just robotic task takers. Well, I think we often, yeah, we often look at that. Like just fitting that, you know, we talk a lot about personas, you know, especially with marketing, like know your personas and who are you talking to and how many people put themselves in a persona that they actually really are not, right? Like if I met you out in the wild, would you really look like that, talk like that, sound like that? No. So then why are you showing up on video or why are you sounding like that in my inbox or on my social thread? Like, you don't talk like that. Second to that, I always, I also like to say, I'd love to hear your feedback on this is, you know, a personal brand should be personal. Like the other day I was looking at an Instagram post or a page for a loan officer before I got on the call with them. I had to like scroll like five or six swipes down before I could find one post that I was like, oh, he does this activity. Like everything was just listed just sold or your company marketing and I'm like, okay, maybe it's just me, but I don't believe it is. I know nothing about you as a human and I actually am wanting to come work with you because you're a human. So how did you take that human approach into your marketing because everything you do is hyper personal? Yeah. I think that there's kind of a couple takeaways on what you just said too. And the part with personal branding and there's so many different definitions of this and every creator and guru has a different like version of what they think a personal brand should be. And for me, the thing I kind of landed on recently is like, it's the pattern people expect when they see you are here, your name. Like that's kind of it, right? And that's why we all have one. And so it's not creating it. It's just identifying it in yourself or giving yourself the permission to let that come through. And so like when I look at you, there's so many things that make you you that come through in the content you make and when I'm around you. And I know you have a family and how important family is to you and how important the outdoors are to you and how important your faith is to you. Like I even know how often your kids get sick because your kids get sick a lot, right? Like those are just the patterns. Yeah. The hand foot and mouth thing, you know, I've said like, I didn't even know what that was until I saw you post about it with your family. I hope I never get it either. But it's the pattern that I expect with you. And so when I see you in person, it's the same thing. And that's what you want. And so like the thing that I teach a lot is like the goal should be when you talk to somebody, they never go, huh, I didn't know that about you. Cause then that means we haven't done a good enough job. Right? So if that person you're talking to is like, oh yeah man, I love going out on my boat and you're like, I didn't know that about you. Yeah. Then you're not sharing enough, you know, and it doesn't need to be the deeply personal things. We're like, my goal when I was a little kid is to be an astronaut, like I didn't know about you. Like, okay, well, you probably wouldn't know all of those. But if it were things, like if I were to tell you, like I love taking my son, riding bikes, and you're like, I didn't know that. It's like I do that every single day. If you don't know that about me, that's like I'm not letting the world know who I actually am. You know, it's funny. I will find myself talking, like if I'm referring to somebody that I follow on social media and I'm talking to somebody in person about somebody that I follow online, if I know them very well, oftentimes I'll be like, oh yeah, one of my friends does X, Y, and Z. And then I like, you know, think I'm like, I've never met them in real life. And I just referred to them as my friend because I feel like I know them so well. And yet if I follow your content and it's very static, I never referred you as my friend. Oh, this is person I follow online or this person I know, right? And so there's this familiarity, I think that we build and you build, you know, that's why I was telling people, I'm like, you're building trust, your content should be building trust and working for you 24-7 when you're not selling or you're not in the room. That is the power of your personal brand. So that when you get there or you're bumping into somebody in the airport, they're like, oh my gosh, like I know you. So why does this matter, right? Like what you're saying and what I'm saying, we talk about it. And a lot of times I feel like there's people that are like, but why does that matter? What is the point? Why do I need to share me right? How does this translate to loans? Yeah, how does this translate to the, how's this gonna make me more money, right? For these people. Think about, if you're a loan officer, think about like your dream client that you've had. We all have them. The one where you're like, dude, that person, if every loan I did was for that client, I would love my job, right? They don't shop you, they trust you, they come in, they converse with all of those. Every time when I tell loan officers to think of that person and actually tell me about them, there was a personal connection that happened with that person. That is why they become the dream client. And it used to be that coming to your office, they sit down, they'd see the skateboard hanging on my wall. We started talking about that. Now I used to skateboard when I was a little and then long boarding was actually the thing I loved doing in college. And then set a football and like, yeah, I had signed by Chris Carr, he went to McQueen, I played football there and my brother. And also when you're building all this rapport and to your word that you've used a lot of times which is the most important one, trust with these people, right? That's how they become that dream client. And so basically we're just leading with that. Because our job historically has always been like, hey, my job is to get you in my office sitting in front of me, right, pre-COVID. And then once you're sitting in front of me, I need to build as much rapport as I possibly can because that's how I'm gonna get you to become a client who trusts me. And then ultimately, the client set of the ones that are your dream clients become your dream referral partners. Every time you're like, dude, they were my best client. They've also sent me 10 people. The 10 people they sent were also very much like them which makes those 10 easier. That's why this is so important. Yeah. And we're the most commoditized we've ever been right now. Well, and let's talk about that for a second because I think with AI especially, now it has never been easier to create content. 20 bucks a month and everybody's a thought leader, everybody's a subject matter expert. And you can outsource your likeness, your voice, your picture, your video, everything. And so content feels very cheap. What would you say to somebody who is wanting to get started? And wanting to maybe use AI, but like they're just getting started and they're needed to build some confidence and some reps. Like how can they avoid that commodity chop? I would probably tell them to hit up Katie because I think you're doing a really good job of helping people understand how to navigate AI. And I think you understand this a lot better than I do. Might take on it so a lot different. But I do think it's important to use that to build these things we're talking about, right? But at the core of it, like if the core is bad, AI might amplify something that is already not good. So if that works not done ahead of time and identify who you are, what you wanna stand for, what you want the world to recognize when they see you, I think you can be burning a lot of time, energy and effort using these AI tools that aren't gonna get you much of a result. But I think it's the whole personal brand thing and building your image to be recognized by people is so important right now because two reasons, right? It's the easiest it's ever been, which also makes it where it's the most competitive it's ever been and it's the hardest to break through the ceiling. But it's the most important it's ever been because we are being commoditized by AI by big banks like it's easier to get your mortgage done by these direct lenders and these big companies than it's ever been. And so the more trusty build, the better. So it's like it's never been more important it's never been easier, which is like that's why we need to focus on it and not checking the box but doing it really well. And so I think there's people and that's why I don't say that jokingly of like I would get a hold of Katie when it comes to trying to navigate how you incorporate AI onto your business. People are using AI as this shortcut and checking the box and it is the exact thing of using your corporate generated social media content to me. It's kind of looking there. It might look different, but it's the same, yeah. And it's the exact, like it is the, it's the, it's the hundred water bottles. They're all going to look at the same. They're all AI generated content. They're checking the box. And so I don't think that that is the answer for people that want like, oh, now there's the easy button where we say it's the easiest it's ever been, like yeah. Hey, I'm going to train a agent and then chat you please going to feed it scripts and then now my AI self is chopping videos every three hours. Like, well, and that to me, it erodes trust. Like we talk about, you know, this industry, especially when you look at the statistics around like next gen and millennials and how they lack there of trust, realtors and loan officers in our space. If you're already starting on an uphill advantage, then your content has to be at the core, really authentic to who you are. My whole thing is like, if your content can't feel like, like if you can't take the two minutes to record the video and be human and do this, like, I don't know, I'm going to find somebody else. And maybe that's just me, but again, you're outsourcing your like this. Yeah. And I think that that is the part of like the more you make and the more authentic way you build trust, if you don't, you're not actually getting the benefit. Right, if you're making videos to make videos, if you're creating AI content to create AI content, you are not actually going to see the benefit of what really comes from that. Yeah, you can do fewer, but have better quality and not just quality and that it's, you know, professionally produced and elaborate, but I think it's genuine. It strikes a nerve with you said something that needed to be said to the audience that follows you. I want to talk to you about the concept of being a top producer versus a top communicator. Because I think we celebrate in this industry, like, you know, top 1% or Scottsman's guide or top, we throw that jargon around a lot. I'm a top producer, right? It's, it's almost watered down, but maybe whatever. But what about the concept of not being known for just being a top producer, but I'm a top communicator? What, what's your take on that? That's a really good question. I think it's, it's interesting because the whole top producer thing, I don't think appeals to consumers. No, I don't have your hands, right? It's just to flex on other people in our industry, a lot of other... I'm talking about the mindset of the loan officer being like, reframing as top producer versus top communicator. As far as like what they're trying to achieve? Yeah, like if it's a goal, so I mean, you're right that the client doesn't care if you're a top user, like they don't even know what that means. Like that's just another industry jargon of like, I could care less, like what does that matter for me? But it's, it's kind of a spin on being, you know, the digital mayor or the best known. But, you know, rather than having this goal of like, I want to be the top producer, what if your drive wasn't to just have the most numbers, but like I want to be the best, the best known? Like I want to be the top communicator in my industry, which hopefully would look like translating to other things. I think they're starting to become one in the same, right? So it's almost like if you want to be the best bodybuilder and I want to get as ripped as possible, I also want to be the most consistent going to the gym. And I want to be the best at, I don't know, bodybuilding, right, posing or whatever, but those are the elements that are needed to become the best. So if your goal in your head is like, I want to be a top producer, I identify as like a top producer, what would you need to get there? Being a top communicator is going to be at the very top of that list. And so I think they're, it's good because it's like Terry Cruz, I saw a clip of Terry Cruz talking about this and it's about going to the gym and he's like, people think it's, because I, if you guys know Terry Cruz, dude is just massive, yoke muscular guy, right? And he's talking about people are like, oh, it must be really easy for you to go to the gym. He's like, I hate going to the gym. And then he's talking about the self talk of like, I don't, my goal is to put on my gym clothes. So once I have my gym clothes on, I feel really dumb not driving to the gym. And then when I drive to the gym, I'm like, well, if I'm here, I got to go in. And so it's the same concept of like one step will lead you to the next being a good communicator's what's going to lead to becoming a top producer. Putting on your gym clothes is what's going to lead to go into the gym, going to the gym is going to lead to the muscles and the fitness. And so I think whatever way you want to view that, I think like having really big audacious goals of where you want to go and what you want to be, I think it's a really good thing. But also the small actionable steps to get there. If you don't have those, you will never get to that goal. And so I think like, yeah, to your point, if you without becoming a master communicator, it's going to be very, very difficult to ever reach any other level other than that. And so I think that's a great way for people to focus on what is the thing that I'm going to be a master communicator? And what I even like, what I want to be known for or how do I, you know, like that being the box, I think is far more important than just saying you want to be a top producer. Yeah, yeah, love that. Let's talk for a second because you had, you had mentioned this earlier about, you know, I don't know that you mentioned rocket or red fins specifically, but you've been loud about that. And that's a signal for something bigger, obviously. And so like, what do you think most loan officers still don't understand about what that means for our industry and for them in their local markets? I think that what the biggest shift that people maybe haven't understood is like the way I break this down is to like, we're in, I'd call it like phase three. We're going into phase three. And so when we look at the mortgage industry, if we chop it up into three different phases, phase one was like traditional, you know, mortgages built on relationships, you talk to people, you connect with your sphere, you do a good job, that's how you build your business. And the value wasn't just doing a good job. That was how you built your business. And then version two of that was when online lenders came to play as the rockets and Quicken was prior to the rocket, Quicken owns rocket. When Quicken came in, like our value was now in fulfillment because the one thing Quicken couldn't do as good as us was like fulfill loans. They were very notorious for missing closings. And they basically had your LO was like a call center operator in Pittsburgh, right? So now our competence was all, our value was all on our fulfillment abilities. That is what's changing right now that I don't think people are quite aware of with what rocket and rate and all these massive direct lenders are going to be able to do is their biggest weakness has been in getting a loan done. That's the thing AI is going to impact the quickest in our industry is fulfillment. We're going to be able to put a deal together, we're going to be able to underwrite it, we're going to be able to process it in minutes if not, right, hours if not minutes. So we need to now as loan officers, like what is our value? It's not in fulfillment anymore because that part is going to be taking care of. It's in the part that Quicken's arguably done very well, which is like the marketing, acquisition, customer acquisition. And so now the playing field I think is going to get more leveled as time goes on, meaning like our rates are all going to be very comparable, our fulfillment is all going to be very comparable. So where do I go? Like whoever has the best brand? So that's why I think our value as loan officers now to our companies and to ourselves is customer acquisition. The best way to acquire customers is to market, not just sales, but like market yourself. And so that's one of the biggest things I think people aren't really aware of with the shift that's happening. And it's happening fast. Yeah. I think it's happening faster than some people are ready for. That's not like a fear statement. That's just like if you haven't been really paying attention to this, like this is important. Well, how would you say that today's consumer has changed even in the last couple of years? Like AI has radically changed. Now our consumers have the same access to information in the palm of their hands. So how do you believe our consumers has changed? And how should we try to shift for meeting them where they're at now? I think there's a few things. And I was talking to a guy that's on Link's spot, John, about this like a week ago. He had a deal with a client that he had done a couple deals for in the past. And he's like, didn't they're asking me questions where I'm like, why are you even asking about these things? And he ends up losing this deal. And basically long story short, this person, which everyone does now, I would do the same thing, is going to AI of like, is this a good deal? And they're taking a picture of their LE and throwing it in there and they're getting analyzed. And so what used to happen was it was us against other lenders, right? You would take your LE to another lender, bring it back to me, and then you're asking questions where I'm like, where are you asking me these, Katie? Right. Well, how many points in, where did you get this? Oh, okay, now it's me versus the southern lender. And like, okay, this rate is lower, but they're charging your points and you don't know about them. And it's us versus them. And that's always been the hardest part of our job, right? It's like, no, I'm trying to tell you the truth. This person's trying to get your deal. And that's where we take it really personal. And I think that's the hardest part of being a loan officer is when you are trying to do what is right and you lose it when somebody else is doing something like that. But now it's all under just like us versus other LEs. It's us versus the robots. And as good as AI is, it still hallucinates a lot. And there's a lot of times where it's saying something like, oh, your best bet is to be in an FHA loan. It's like, dude, no, no, no, you're putting 20% down. You have perfect, like I'm telling you, you're in the right product. But some of these people are now trusting these robots more than they're trusting us as the actual service provider because those same robots have helped me with a lot of things. So if it's saying FHA, like I'm not, like I'm going with what this is saying, right? I'm just crazy because I heard a stat yesterday that people are 77% likely to trust, as likely to trust their robot, like whatever AI tool as they are human. So like, and that, you know, I don't know where that was a year ago, I'm sure obviously it's a lot more today than it was then. But like exactly what you just said, the fact that somebody will have as much absolute confidence and trust in chat GBT, as they would the 30 year season, you know, mortgage advisor says a lot about that. A ton, and it's not, it's not un like justified, right? Like, I know you use it much as I do, like this thing is medically the stuff that it's done that doctors don't spot that I'm like, dang, I trust this more than doctors because it's, I'm now going to my doctor's telling them what's wrong based on what my little robot's telling me, right? Or when I did my taxes, this thing legitimately saved me like 24 grand on taxes that my CPA missed because I uploaded every single bank statement and it finds things that they don't. So then there's things where it's like, okay, I've lost now trust in my CPA, unfortunately, because this, but it's true, right? Like, and so now if my CPA says something, I'm fact checking against this, but AI is still wrong a lot of times. And typically when it is, it's missing a lot of context. And so that's where hallucinates is, it starts to fill in gaps of what it believes that context should be. And so when someone's, you know, asking like, which alone is best for me, it doesn't know enough about your, your situation unless you've prompted it there. And a lot of consumers aren't competent yet enough to know how heavily you would need to prompt it for it to give you an accurate. And so that's where like a loan officer, like your entire statement is in front of it, like your entire situation, like they are going to have that edge until you train it. Well, I think that's where, you know, your humanity comes back into place, right? Like I, the example I always give is, you know, AI can give you good scenarios perhaps, but it doesn't know how to speak to the widow who just lost her husband is now having to figure out if she should sell her home that, you know, her and her husband built, raised her family in because she needs to consolidate debt or it's too much of a maintenance, right? Like chat GBD or, you know, could give a very sterile answer, but we all know that buying a home is one of the most emotional things, processes that you do. It's tied to money and there's so many moving parts. So push back on that Katie. Have you, and most people that are using AI consistently, have you ever talked to it like a therapist? Oh, yes. I mean, I would say like it sometimes I'm like, this thing sees me better than any human could. And so we, we do set, you know, like, oh, this will never replace human connection. Like, their piss is the first one going because I love talking to this thing about, right? It sees me. No, yes. And it's more private too. So with friends with, we're not comfortable asking those questions. You know, I think that's why people go to AI is they feel a lot of shame or guilt in, you know, whether they're financial history or what have you. Yes, I have had many moments where I'm like, that almost made me cry because I feel so seen. Well, and so I think the takeaway though, and this is, this is the really important part is, I think it's an and not an or, right? Like I don't, it's human or AI. Like I don't think we're getting to that being the, the two competitors, right? In situation where what, what changed with customers, what we're talking about is like, how have customers changed? Like that is a battle right now, as it's our voice versus this AI one. And then if there's come like confrontation, that person saw to go somewhere else to get the loan. And that went to another home officer. So like AI caused you to lose that deal, but you didn't lose it to AI. It just went to the bank that I was like, sure, we'll put you in an FHA with, right? So I think it becomes the end. And what we're seeing though is that if AI keeps progressing, like we're taught out to where now there is perfect alignment. When you say what's the longest best for me, it will just spit out the right answer. And then as the LL, I'm like, yes, right? You still need to get that fulfilled somewhere. And so the LL could go away because fulfillment is gone, right? But if we get paid for customer acquisition because now every bank has AI, I think still want to make money. They want the loans, okay? So they can try to buy stadiums like Quicken Can or they can pay me as a loan officer a commission for acquiring customers. Which is like, cool. Cost me nothing unless you get me a deal. So that's where it's like, we're not competing against like me or robot, it's an end. It's like, cool, I have the same resources. I'll be able to close your deal. We have AI underwriting. We'll be able to underwrite it in an hour. Like you'll have your money by the end of the day. Whatever that looks like. Right. Our value goes into customer acquisition. Did we build a brand? And then that's where that other element like you're talking about is like, well, I'm gonna go with Trevor because I trust him. And I know he has a family as well. And so when I say I want this place for my kids to build my future, like it may be I'm getting, like he will have my back. I trust him. I want to go through this process with him and my trustee AI robot that makes you feel great. Right. And I mean, just like you, you know, just like people will bring in Ellie from another lender to get a second opinion. I mean, maybe you even build that into your verbiage of like, hey, what does chat GPT told you? Let's talk about that, right? Like, bring it into the conversation. All right, let's final question. If you have a loan officer listening right now and they feel like, okay, a lot of this resonates, but I feel pretty invisible. I don't have a strong foundation. Like what's the next thing, right? Like it's easy to talk about where they're at and where they should be, but you really bring in the simplicity of like, okay, what's the next thing? So what would you say is the next thing that they should look at? I think that like obviously if you're not creating content, I think we're at a point where people are really trying to do that, you know, like enough now that that's something they should do. But it is intimidating. And so I think the least intimidating thing to do is just share a simple story about something that happened to you and what your thoughts were on that thing. And when I say simple, I mean like crazy simple and just watch what happens because it's very low risk to just be like, man, I was in why last week with my son and seeing how excited he was to go to the beach. And I'm looking at like the sun and the, you know, like the escape from work. And he's just really excited because he gets to play in the sand, which I'm like, they're sand and Reno. We need to go like he probably would have been just as happy in Reno. Made me realize like the thing that he liked from there was just the fact that he got to play in the dirt and how I needed this, you know, warmer climate and escapism and all of this. And I just made me think about how easy it is to be happy when you're a kid and how we lose that. And so that's my goal is to try and embrace more of that. That's awesome. If you just, right, like just just something that happened and what your thoughts were about it, you have a, as a parent, there's a million of those where you watch your kids do something, you have some takeaways, you're at a game or you're just driving, you saw something, the amount of connection you create with a piece of content like that unmatched. So if there's one step, I would say that's a great one for someone to go do. Start to write a story down. And I mean, obviously they need to, they need to contact you about Link Spot. So we're gonna put some stuff in the notes, all the details of where you can connect with Trevor. But give me like the 30 second pitch, talk to us really quickly about Link Spot. Why should somebody be on Link Spot? So Link Spot is a all in one platform. So basically your entire marketing engine that you need with also my team actually helping you execute. So giving the tools is one piece, but a lot of times people get them and they're like, what do I do now? The way that we built this is basically the team that builds all of my marketing, every webinar I do, every funnel that I've built is the same team building for all of the users on Link Spot. So you get to build whatever you want that they're to support you in creating this stuff. I do coaching calls once a month with everybody on the platform to help you create content to drive people in the funnels or even if you don't want to make content, like we have users crushing using our email software in these pre-written campaigns that God has passed clients and people are getting a ton of wins. And so basically I always like, this is what the future proofing your business. I think Link Spot is the ideal thing to have in your tool of your belt tool belt. Your tool belt? Yeah, that's the thing that's going to future proofing business. Oh, well, thanks for joining us today. We'll put all of the information in the show notes so you can connect with Trevor, learn about Link Spot. Trevor, thanks for joining. So find a connect in just to hear your story. That was a blast. Thanks, Katie.